Jump to content

AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion


Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I'd personally go with the lance. The high damage charge is significant because front loading your damage is good and the lance outdamages the sword over two round if you get the charge once.

I'm not a fan of Flaming Weapon, personally. In this edition, Arcane Bolt deals 1d3 mortal wounds (so 2 wounds on average) and is just slightly harder to cast. If Flaming weapons wants to compete with that it needs to deal at least 2 damage on average after saves. An attack profile of 3+/3+ to hit and wound deals damage about 50% of the time. The average save you go up against is probably at least a 4+ on all targets where extra damage matters. So you would probably need to have 8 attacks at 3+/3+ before Flaming Weapons becomes as good as Arcane Bolt.

Now, there is more to take into account here, such as rend and whether you have any other wizards that want to cast Arcane Bolt. In your list, I would probably try for Mystic Shield, Arcane Bolt or Amethystine Pinions on the VLoZD most of the time.

@Neil Arthur Hotep Thanks for the insight. 
 

My current thinking is that I want to try and get the most out of Vhordrias CA allowing the VLOZD to pile in and attack in the hero phase and maximise the potential. 
 

If triggered with the sword I’d get 2 extra attacks over the Lance, which I thought with flaming weapon would be good value. Also the red sword artefact (+ 1 to wound rolls) triggers when the bearer kills an enemy with a melee weapon, so I was leaning into that… I’m a bit of a sucker for synergy. Relying on charges with the Lance might be the better option, however I thought it would be cool and wanted to see if I could maximising the potential of having them both running around; Vhordria charging with the Lance + high rend, VLOZD with high number of attacks, good damage and “auto” buffing.

After coming from playing LON (sacrament) I do want an army that can play with independent strong units instead of having to blob everything together and rely on buffs from low wound lords, so your suggestions may play better into that. 

What do you think?

(I’m giving Vhrodria pinions, but will consider it for both, because flat + 6 movement rocks). 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, TechnoVampire said:

If triggered with the sword I’d get 2 extra attacks over the Lance, which I thought with flaming weapon would be good value. Also the red sword artefact (+ 1 to wound rolls) triggers when the bearer kills an enemy with a melee weapon, so I was leaning into that… I’m a bit of a sucker for synergy. Relying on charges with the Lance might be the better option, however I thought it would be cool and wanted to see if I could maximising the potential of having them both running around; Vhordria charging with the Lance + high rend, VLOZD with high number of attacks, good damage and “auto” buffing.

That sounds like a plan! I think you'll just have to test it out to see if it's worth it. My suspicion (without ever having played this kind of build) is that running both the VLoZD and Vhordrai around close enough to each other to actually get the CA off might be hard to do and could be overkill in many cases. But really, give it a go and see how it works out.

3 minutes ago, TechnoVampire said:

After coming from playing LON (sacrament) I do want an army that can play with independent strong units instead of having to blob everything together and rely on buffs from low wound lords, so your suggestions may play better into that. 

Yeah, I get that. I also ran a Legion of Sacrament death star previously. One of the good things about the new book is that it removes most of the incentives to build lists in that way. I definitely find myself building more in power pairs of one unit+a hero that supports it now, and it's generally working well :)

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Eldarain said:

i wouldn't bump the knights to 10 as that coherency change sucks.

QfT

the only reason might be, if you know you’re fighting a „first strike“ blender… 

5 all out attacking knights took down Be‘lakor in one charge , if they were facing some Slaanesh filth, with locus of diversion, fighting last might cripple them

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, TechnoVampire said:

If triggered with the sword I’d get 2 extra attacks over the Lance

The Sword is only 1 extra attack vs the lance. Before the new tome the Sword was a much closer option, however with the changes to saves and how much better the lance is now both on the charge and not, I think it's a no brainer.

Plus the Sword of the Red Seneschals only triggers in the combat phase, so kills in the Hero phase won't proc it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Warbossironteef said:

Last time I'll post a list on here for awhile but I think after a few games I've finally fine tuned a decent version of Zombie list. We all know how important Necromancer's spell is and I've found without support it doesn't go off. Legion of Night helps with this and also offers some additional utility with Unholy Impetus.

You could also remove Gorslav and lean more into Skellies and additional GG but I just dont have those models. I think this is a all around solid Zombie list if anyone else is looking to bring 100+ zombies. I wish the Unholy Impetus was a bigger range so it may not always work out but I'm interested to try it. The other attack buffing pieces in the book I'm not a fan of, regular Vamp Lord on foot being one of them. 

LEADERS
Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (435) in Command Entourage
- General
- Command Trait: Unholy Impetus
- Deathlance
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny
- Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine Pinions
Mannfred von Carstein, Mortarch of Night (380) in Battle Regiment
- Lore of the Deathmages: Decrepify
Necromancer (125) in Command Entourage
- Artefact: Morbheg's Claw
- Lore of the Deathmages: Fading Vigour
Gorslav the Gravekeeper (75) in Command Entourage
UNITS
40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230) in Battle Regiment
40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230) in Battle Regiment
40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230) in Battle Regiment
20 x Grave Guard (280) in Battle Regiment
- Great Wight Blades
TOTAL: 1985/2000 

 

On 7/27/2021 at 10:54 AM, Warbossironteef said:

The only thing about your list is I don't like spamming Zombies as much with Nagash as I do in other lists. I think units like Skellies, Direwolves and GG are more cost efficient with Nagash because they actually benefit from reroll 1 of saves and the reroll to hit. Zombies dont. That said, 40 battleshock Zombies are not bad for 230 I just think other units pair better with Nagash.

I would look to at least bring 30 Skellies or 20 GG.

 

A fair point re: Nagash. My logic running so many zombies is that the main weakness of god type lists are the lack of bodies, and Zombies+Nagash are a great way to have a dominating model on the table while still having a numbers advantage against your opponents for the objective game. Zombies do benefit from the reroll to hit quite a bit, although your point re: saves is fair. I think they benefit more from battleshock immunity than the other units you mentioned except possibly skeletons. That said they do still die very quickly, so I could definitely see the benefit of bringing in some skeletons. The problems that I see with this are twofold. For one, the points are very tight, so switching to skeletons would mean taking 20 zombies, 10 skellies, and 30 skellies instead of 20/20/40 zombies, thus losing 20 bodies. Secondly, Radukar doesn't work nearly as well with skeletons. Skellies are completely pillowfisted even when buffed to two attacks, whereas Zombies can actually start to become a threat with two attacks (.086 offensive efficiency for skellies with 2 attacks vs .145 for zombies). Dropping Radukar could solve the points problem, but it leaves the list a lot less pointy. I could see an argument for dropping Radukar and 40 zombies and replacing them with 30 skeletons and 20 grave guard. Now you're maintaining parity on bodies (losing only 1 when factoring in the summoned dire wolves).

Total weighted offense of the Radukar package is 38.49 when not charging and 66.54 when charging. Total weighted offense of the bones package is 56.74.

Total weighted defense of the Radukar package is 113.7. Total weighted defense of the bones package is 76.5.

This math does not factor in the additional CP cost inherent in the Radukar package or the CP cost when charging (or the possibility of units outside the package benefiting from Radukar's CA). It also doesn't factor in any new zombies or skeletons returned, which is a factor that pretty significantly benefits the bones package in many matchups.

Overall I think both versions merit testing.

____________________________

As far as your zombie list goes I ran something somewhat similar. I didn't run the VLoZD or Grave Guard and instead ran lil Radukar, Torgilius, 2 nightguard, 5 Blood Knights and 140 total Zombies (3x40 and 1x20). I only have one game in with that list though, but it was a solid win against Lumineth with Teclis, 40 sentinels and 40 wardens. I think some flavor of Radukar is really key in any Zombie list as he scales them so, so well.

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's what painting 70 zombies on strips of cardboard looks like in case anyone was interested :)

Still WIP. Last picture is after some oil washes. Starting to bring them to life (or bring them to death?)

 

20210728_081544.jpg

20210728_081757.jpg

20210727_175959.jpg

20210729_085525.jpg

Edited by Warbossironteef
  • Like 4
  • LOVE IT! 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

 

As far as your zombie list goes I ran something somewhat similar. I didn't run the VLoZD or Grave Guard and instead ran lil Radukar, Torgilius, 2 nightguard, 5 Blood Knights and 140 total Zombies (3x40 and 1x20). I only have one game in with that list though, but it was a solid win against Lumineth with Teclis, 40 sentinels and 40 wardens. I think some flavor of Radukar is really key in any Zombie list as he scales them so, so well.

 

Some good points by you. As you can see from the above post, I'm all in Zombies so I agree with your takes :) 

I'm really liking VLOZD in Legion of Night next to Mannifred over Radukar. Radukar can buff Zombies in two ways and you can give VLOZD a CA to do something similar to Radukar. I do think Radukar is a solid option though. He's actually very tanky next to Nagash with his -1 hit and rerolling 1s to save. A nice option. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Liquidsteel said:

The Sword is only 1 extra attack vs the lance. Before the new tome the Sword was a much closer option, however with the changes to saves and how much better the lance is now both on the charge and not, I think it's a no brainer.

Plus the Sword of the Red Seneschals only triggers in the combat phase, so kills in the Hero phase won't proc it.

I meant +2 attacks if using Vhordrais CA to attack in the hero phase as well, situational, but thought it might be a good option. 


Good point on the combat phase, I hadn’t thought about that. 


I’ll test them both out and see which I prefer. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@TechnoVampire Personally I've found that hero phase fight activations are very difficult to rely on. You basically have to have already gone through at least one and sometimes two rounds of melee with something before you get to activate in the hero phase. Either you charge in your turn, the enemy survives, and then you get the double turn, or your opponent charges you during their turn, both your hero and their unit survive and you get the next turn. Any other scenario requires two full rounds of melee before you get to your hero phase.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

@TechnoVampire Personally I've found that hero phase fight activations are very difficult to rely on. You basically have to have already gone through at least one and sometimes two rounds of melee with something before you get to activate in the hero phase. Either you charge in your turn, the enemy survives, and then you get the double turn, or your opponent charges you during their turn, both your hero and their unit survive and you get the next turn. Any other scenario requires two full rounds of melee before you get to your hero phase.

Good point… I'm playing now and already think it’s nice when pulled off (I managed to charge a unit of blight kings with VLOZD turn 1, both units survive, be within range of Vhordrai and win the double for turn 2), but as demonstrated too circumstantial to be relied upon. Probably best to just load up with the Lance and charge around without having to worry too much. 

Edited by TechnoVampire
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@TechnoVampire

If using no melee boosting artefacts or spells, the lance adds 4.12 weighted damage contribution over the sword on the charge, while the sword adds 1.18 weighted damage contribution over the lance when not charging. So as long as you are charging one activation out of four you're still ahead with the lance.

With Sangsyron the numbers increase to 7.66 for the lance when charging but stay at 1.18 for the sword when not charging, so with Sangsyron you are still coming out ahead as long as you are charging at least one activation out of seven.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

@TechnoVampire

If using no melee boosting artefacts or spells, the lance adds 4.12 weighted damage contribution over the sword on the charge, while the sword adds 1.18 weighted damage contribution over the lance when not charging. So as long as you are charging one activation out of four you're still ahead with the lance.

With Sangsyron the numbers increase to 7.66 for the lance when charging but stay at 1.18 for the sword when not charging, so with Sangsyron you are still coming out ahead as long as you are charging at least one activation out of seven.

Sangsyron? 😅

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I love the Vargskyr...they are like little Radukar's. Fast and angry. Full offensive VLoZD. With the artifact and the easy to cast spell thats 4-6 attacks at -2 rend with a damage of 5 on the charge. I hate not having used the full points but a triumph is fine too.

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Lineage: Vyrkos Dynasty
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Inspired

Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (435) in Battle Regiment
- General
- Deathlance
- Command Trait: Pack Alpha
- Artefact: Sangsyron
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
Belladamma Volga, First of the Vyrkos (200) in Battle Regiment
- Lore of the Vampires: Soulpike
Radukar the Beast (315) in Vanguard
10 x Dire Wolves (135) in Vanguard
40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230) in Battle Regiment
40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230) in Battle Regiment
1 x Vargskyr (115) in Battle Regiment
1 x Vargskyr (115) in Battle Regiment
1 x Vargskyr (115) in Battle Regiment
3 x Fell Bats (75) in Vanguard

Core Battalions
Battle Regiment
Vanguard

Total: 1965 / 2000
Wounds: 168
 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Malakithe said:

I was thinking about that but the points still leave a strange gap depending on which one is picked

I usually try to add a suffocating gravetide into any Radukar list because of flavor! (In cursed city you have to run from several gravesides)

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

Vyrkos artefact that gives +d3 attacks on the charge. It's probably the most common offensive artefact choice for the VLoZD.

Wow, that’s hefty, I didn’t know it existed. I’m playing Kastelai, and using the red sword artefact. Your numbers suggest that the Lance is probably the best option regardless though. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/28/2021 at 7:29 PM, TechnoVampire said:

Hi all, 

This is my proposed Kastelai - Blood Knights army. I'm yet to play AOS 3.0, but looking for something fun, fast and fairly hard hitting. I always wanted to play with 2 x mounted zombie dragons and with new rules I feel like Vhordria and VLOZD work really well together. I'm considering taking one unit of 10 Blood Knights as oposed to 2 x 5 for a more survivable unit, and was also thinking of using emerald lifeswarm to help keep things alive (Also makes the army 1 drop) as oposed to Fell Bats who are just there to fill up points/ grab objectives. Skeletons are there for a tar-pit unit of bodies and objective camping. Any feedback apreciatted: 

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Lineage: Kastelai Dynasty
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs:

LEADERS

Prince Vhordrai (455) in Battle Regiment
- Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine Pinions

Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (435) in Battle Regiment
- General
- Command Trait: Rousing Commander
- Vampiric Sword
- Artefact: Sword of the Red Seneschals
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon

UNITS
5 x Blood Knights (195) in Battle Regiment
5 x Blood Knights (195) in Battle Regiment
5 x Blood Knights (195) in Battle Regiment
5 x Blood Knights (195) in Battle Regiment
30 x Deathrattle Skeletons (255) in Battle Regiment
3 x Fell Bats (75)

CORE BATTALIONS
Battle Regiment

This is very similar to a Kastelai list that went 4-1 in the Lone Star Open (a 2 day tournament with over 50 people). The difference is it had 3 BKs instead of 4 and a Necromancer instead of Fell Bats. Also ran Fragment of the Keep instead of Sword of the Red Seneschals.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, BaylorCorvette said:

This is very similar to a Kastelai list that went 4-1 in the Lone Star Open (a 2 day tournament with over 50 people). The difference is it had 3 BKs instead of 4 and a Necromancer instead of Fell Bats. Also ran Fragment of the Keep instead of Sword of the Red Seneschals.

Thanks, I'll check it out :)

Edited by TechnoVampire
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Howdy all would love help with penning a list to paint toward for  slowing jump back into the hobby. I have two list, and am looking for some might, magic, and speed. 

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords - Lineage: Vyrkos Dynasty - Grand Strategy: - Triumphs:

LEADERS
Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (435) - Deathlance - Artefact: Sangsyron Spell: Flaming weapon
Coven Throne (310)
General - Command Trait: Pack Alpha
Spell: Amarannthine Orb

Vengorian Lord (280)
Spell: Amethystine Pinions
Bloodseeker Palanquin (290)
Spell

UNITS

10 x Dire Wolves (135)
10 x Dire Wolves (135)
10 x Dire Wolves (135)

BEHEMOTHS
Mortis Engine (200)

1920/2000

The idea with this list is getting the reroll to cast and +1 to cast, along side a lot of  poke damage to remove key target. With 2 hammers in the vamp lord and vegorian lord. 80 free points, could take a corpse cart or endless spells.  Cogs?

Between all out attack, Finest hour, and coven throne command ability should keep up lots of +1 to hit/wound/save on the big hitter vampires?

 

Knight List:

LEADERS Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (435) -- Deathlance
General - Command Trait: Rousing Commander

Vengorian Lord (280) - Artefact: Sword of the Red Seneschals - Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine Pinions
Bloodseeker Palanquin (290)
UNITS
5 x Blood Knights (195)
5 x Blood Knights (195)
5 x Blood Knights (195)
5 x Blood Knights (195)

BEHEMOTHS
Mortis Engine (200)
1985/2000

just damage sword is on vengoriun to beaf up the vamplord and knights to do real damage?? 

Anywho thoughts on either are welcome. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...