AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion

[Liquidsteel]

In the GHB, there is no maximum unit size is there, just a "unit size" from which you can reinforce up to two times.

With this in mind the only consideration for zombies is if they can go over their starting size, which the FAQ has confirmed is possible.

[Zlatan]

I have a rules Q about Radukar the Beast’s command ability. Interested to know what others think. I’ve tried scouring the core rules and FAQs but can’t find anything that clarifies this (unless I’m just being blind). 
 

 So he uses the ability on himself at the start of the combat phase. The sentence I’m not clear on is this: “Add one to the attacks characteristic of melee weapons used by friendly Soulblight Gravelords units within 18” until the end of that phase”. 
 

I can see this being interpreted in 2 ways; 1) the bonus attack is instantly applied to all units within range as soon as the ability is used. They then all gain the extra attack until the end of the phase, regardless of whether Radukar is subsequently removed from play in that phase. 
2) The affect applies to Radukar and is lost when he is removed, so units that have not yet attacked in that phase before he is removed won’t benefit. 
 

 Obviously 2 is better, so I’m hoping that’s how it’s supposed to work, but I’d love some clarification. It could be a frequent issue in messy combats with lots of alternating activations. 
 

what do you guys think? If I’m missing a general FAQ about these kinds of aura abilities somewhere, I’d be grateful if anyone can point me in the right direction. 

[PlayerJ]

7 hours ago, Okonomiyakimarine said:

@PlayerJ I like it, but command entourage needs 3 heroes, so no battle regiment for Gorslav and most units.

 

edit: nevermind, just saw that battalions were listed below… I like it, but unsure if you need that many wolves from the start with the abilities to bring extra.

(Guess I clicked the wrong button for gorslav, meant to be in the Command Entourage xD)

My thinking with the 2x 10 wolves is to have one start with Belladamma, and one in the grave.

[Liquidsteel]

2 hours ago, Zlatan said:

I have a rules Q about Radukar the Beast’s command ability. Interested to know what others think. I’ve tried scouring the core rules and FAQs but can’t find anything that clarifies this (unless I’m just being blind). 
 

 So he uses the ability on himself at the start of the combat phase. The sentence I’m not clear on is this: “Add one to the attacks characteristic of melee weapons used by friendly Soulblight Gravelords units within 18” until the end of that phase”. 
 

I can see this being interpreted in 2 ways; 1) the bonus attack is instantly applied to all units within range as soon as the ability is used. They then all gain the extra attack until the end of the phase, regardless of whether Radukar is subsequently removed from play in that phase. 
2) The affect applies to Radukar and is lost when he is removed, so units that have not yet attacked in that phase before he is removed won’t benefit. 
 

 Obviously 2 is better, so I’m hoping that’s how it’s supposed to work, but I’d love some clarification. It could be a frequent issue in messy combats with lots of alternating activations. 
 

what do you guys think? If I’m missing a general FAQ about these kinds of aura abilities somewhere, I’d be grateful if anyone can point me in the right direction. 

I believe that as per core rules its 1. Check the FAQ for this.

Q: Some commands are received by all units within a certain range of the model issuing the command. Can such an order be received by a unit that has already received a command in the same phase?

A: No.

This shows that the units are receiving the command ability. Meaning they keep it if he dies, but cannot also receive all out attack or defence.

Mannfreds is different because its an aura and is also explained in the same FAQ. We can infer that these kinds of auras are being phased out by the way they call it an "older command ability".

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

2 hours ago, Zlatan said:

I have a rules Q about Radukar the Beast’s command ability. Interested to know what others think. I’ve tried scouring the core rules and FAQs but can’t find anything that clarifies this (unless I’m just being blind).

 

5 minutes ago, Liquidsteel said:

I believe that as per core rules its 1. Check the FAQ for this.

Q: Some commands are received by all units within a certain range of the model issuing the command. Can such an order be received by a unit that has already received a command in the same phase?

A: No.

This shows that the units are receiving the command ability. Meaning they keep it if he dies, but cannot also receive all out attack or defence.

Mannfreds is different because its an aura and is also explained in the same FAQ. We can infer that these kinds of auras are being phased out by the way they call it an "older command ability".

I am pretty sure Radukar's command is in the same category as Mannfred's: They are both the target and source of the command (issue and receive it). And under the Mannfred section, it explicitly allows units affected by the aura to benefit from other commands as well:

Quote

Other units benefiting from the effect of the command can still receive a command (for example, they could receive the All-out Defence command in the subsequent combat phase whilst also benefiting from Vigour of Undeath).

I think an example of the other type of command ability that the FAQ talks about might be Nagash's command:

Quote

You can use this command ability in your hero phase if this model is on the battlefield. If you do so, until your next hero phase, you can re-roll hit rolls of 1 for attacks made by friendly Deathunits, you can re-roll save rolls of 1 for attacks that target friendly Death units, and do not take battleshock tests for friendly Death units.

It seems to me that in this case you could argue that all units on the battlefield receive the command instead of Nagash providing an aura.

I believe the GW rules writers are trying to differentiate between a situation where a model broadcasts an aura around themselves and other models benefit (the hero issues and receives the command) and one where a model gives a command to several units within range (the hero issues the command, but other units receive it). I can't point towards any rulings to this effect (although I am sure I saw something like this somewhere before), but I think the intent is that in the case of Radukar's and Mannfred's CA, units are supposed to be able to move into or out of the aura radius later and gain/lose the benefit, and I think the effect is supposed to go away when Radukar dies. In the case of Nagash, I think the command is supposed to stick around even if Nagash dies.

 

[djrodriguez123]

Thoughts on this??? I was thinking with manFred and other heroes, you can just turn the blood knights into hammers while maintaining their durability with the vengorian lord. Fell bats for chaff and wolves for protection and chaff

Edited July 6, 2021 by djrodriguez123

[Liquidsteel]

@Neil Arthur Hotep yeah I think you're right, I just read the full ability and the initial part seems to confirm it's placed on him. So yes it's an aura and goes away if he dies.

 

[Andalf]

43 minutes ago, djrodriguez123 said:

Thoughts on this??? I was thinking with manFred and other heroes, you can just turn the blood knights into hammers while maintaining their durability with the vengorian lord. Fell bats for chaff and wolves for protection and chaff

It looks quite a lot like the 5-6 of the last bastardized Dynasty lists we’ve seen here.  

You’ll need to risk Mannfred in order to buff things with him, Blood Knights are always hammers, all they need is All-out attack and a reasonably fast friendly unit to help minimalize their target’s pile-in and swing back.  The Vengorian protection aura will only do it if he’s in base to base, for the most part, and it doesn’t do much to protect units around him as much as it works for himself.

I’d get rid of Manny and the Wolf, bring the Beast a Spellportal and another fell bat squad.  The extra spawned puppies will help herd everything for your Knights, you can afford to burn some wolves on Belladamma’s command ability, which will win you games for not only taking the objective but helping to ensure nobody can contest them if they get too close.  Spellportal for early Lycancurses and Fellbats for clipping/unleash hell friends. Just my two cents.

Edited July 6, 2021 by Andalf

[djrodriguez123]

4 minutes ago, Andalf said:

It looks quite a lot like the 5-6 of the last bastardized Dynasty lists we’ve seen here.  

You’ll need to risk Mannfred in order to buff things with him, Blood Knights are always hammers, all they need is All-out attack and a reasonably fast friendly unit to help minimalize their target’s pile-in and swing back.  The Vengorian protection aura will only do it if he’s in base to base, for the most part, and it doesn’t do much to protect units around him as much as it works for himself.

I’d get rid of Manny and the Wolf, bring the Beast a Spellportal and another fell bat squad.  The extra spawned puppies will help herd everything for your Knights, you can afford to burn some wolves on Belladamma’s command ability, which will win you games for not only taking the objective but helping to ensure nobody can contest them if they get too close.  Spellportal for early Lycancurses and Fellbats for clipping/unleash hell friends. Just my two cents.

Thanks for your advice, I’m trying to test a bunch of different variations to see what sticks 

[Alfascozzesi]

I have a question regarding Mannys command ability.

It is triggered in the hero phase and has a bubble of 12”. 
Does this mean that everyone in the bubble in the hero phase gains the buff or is the buff bubble measured in the combat phase when the buff would take effect but has to be triggered in the hero phase.

Hope this makes sense.

Thanks

[Warbossironteef]

1 hour ago, Alfascozzesi said:

I have a question regarding Mannys command ability.

It is triggered in the hero phase and has a bubble of 12”. 
Does this mean that everyone in the bubble in the hero phase gains the buff or is the buff bubble measured in the combat phase when the buff would take effect but has to be triggered in the hero phase.

Hope this makes sense.

It buffs and has no restrictions after that, unlike Bellas spell.

[swarmofseals]

4 hours ago, Alfascozzesi said:

I have a question regarding Mannys command ability.

It is triggered in the hero phase and has a bubble of 12”. 
Does this mean that everyone in the bubble in the hero phase gains the buff or is the buff bubble measured in the combat phase when the buff would take effect but has to be triggered in the hero phase.

Hope this makes sense.

Thanks

 

3 hours ago, Warbossironteef said:

It buffs and has no restrictions after that, unlike Bellas spell.

@Warbossironteef if you mean what I think you mean you aren't correct. Units benefit from the buff when they are wholly within 12 of manny. If they are ww 12 during the hero phase but are not ww 12 during the combat phase they get no buff. Similarly, if they are not ww 12 in the hero phase but are ww 12 during the combat phase they do. Basically, when the unit fights it gets the benefit if ww 12 of manny regardless of where they were when the ability was used. This is explicitly clarified in the core rules FAQ.

[Alfascozzesi]

3 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

 

@Warbossironteef if you mean what I think you mean you aren't correct. Units benefit from the buff when they are wholly within 12 of manny. If they are ww 12 during the hero phase but are not ww 12 during the combat phase they get no buff. Similarly, if they are not ww 12 in the hero phase but are ww 12 during the combat phase they do. Basically, when the unit fights it gets the benefit if ww 12 of manny regardless of where they were when the ability was used. This is explicitly clarified in the core rules FAQ.

That’s great and what I was asking.

 

Thanks

[Liquidsteel]

Just to be clear, Mannfreds applies when you are wholly within full stop, regardless of phase.

If you can fight out of phase e.g. Vhordrai CA to fight in the hero phase, you still benefit from Vigour.

It's not limited to the combat phase basically. 

[Wordy9th]

Spoiler

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Lineage: Legion of Blood
- Mortal Realm: Ghur
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Indomitable
Neferata, Mortarch of Blood (365) in Battle Regiment
Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (435) in Command Entourage
- Deathlance
- Artefact: Soulbound Garments
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
Necromancer (125) in Command Entourage
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
Wight King on Skeletal Steed (130) in Command Entourage
- General
- Command Trait: Soul-crushing Contempt
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
20 x Deathrattle Skeletons (170) in Battle Regiment
- Reinforced x 1
20 x Grave Guard (280)
- Wight Blades & Crypt Shields
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Black Knights (120) in Battle Regiment
10 x Grave Guard (140)
- Wight Blades & Crypt Shields
5 x Blood Knights (195) in Battle Regiment
Command Entourage - Magnificent
Battle Regiment

Total: 1960 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 113

 

I'm going for a legion of blood vibe trying to get as much use out of skeletal units as possible (I loved the idea of the black knights and wight king bravery bombing on the side while filling out the battle line) with a strong vampiric core of Neffy and her pet dragon lord and some blood knights.

I've got a Coven throne, Mannfred and Belladonna spare, the latter two might make it a little more competitive but I'm looking for that perfect mix of using units I like (skeletons and big dragon) while still having it competitive. Also wondering what weapons to take on the grave guard, though I'm leaning towards great weapons, Any thoughts? 

Edited July 7, 2021 by Wordy9th

[RuneBrush]

22 hours ago, Zlatan said:

I have a rules Q about Radukar the Beast’s command ability. Interested to know what others think. I’ve tried scouring the core rules and FAQs but can’t find anything that clarifies this (unless I’m just being blind). 
 

 So he uses the ability on himself at the start of the combat phase. The sentence I’m not clear on is this: “Add one to the attacks characteristic of melee weapons used by friendly Soulblight Gravelords units within 18” until the end of that phase”. 
 

I can see this being interpreted in 2 ways; 1) the bonus attack is instantly applied to all units within range as soon as the ability is used. They then all gain the extra attack until the end of the phase, regardless of whether Radukar is subsequently removed from play in that phase. 
2) The affect applies to Radukar and is lost when he is removed, so units that have not yet attacked in that phase before he is removed won’t benefit. 
 

 Obviously 2 is better, so I’m hoping that’s how it’s supposed to work, but I’d love some clarification. It could be a frequent issue in messy combats with lots of alternating activations. 
 

what do you guys think? If I’m missing a general FAQ about these kinds of aura abilities somewhere, I’d be grateful if anyone can point me in the right direction. 

Personally it's option 1.  The wording says 'Add one to the attacks .... units wholly within 18" until the end of that phase'.  For option 2 it would expect the wording to be 'whilst they are wholly within 18"'.  Could be worth emailing the faq team though as I can see it being read by different people in different ways.

[Obeisance]

Does anyone have any recommendations for reading/listening material regarding starting the army?

I think I'm gonna pick some stuff up from my LGS tomorrow.

I've spent the last.. week.. deciding what to play and it keeps coming back to something with OP shooting or Soulblight. I think Soulblight wins.

Starter/shopping lists?

Blood Knights, Zombies, Bats, Vengorian Lord..

 

 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

50 minutes ago, Obeisance said:

Does anyone have any recommendations for reading/listening material regarding starting the army?

I think I'm gonna pick some stuff up from my LGS tomorrow.

I've spent the last.. week.. deciding what to play and it keeps coming back to something with OP shooting or Soulblight. I think Soulblight wins.

Starter/shopping lists?

Blood Knights, Zombies, Bats, Vengorian Lord..

 

 

What play style are you most interested in?

Generally, I think all three of our unconditional battleline options are good, as are most heroes. The only units I would probably avoid are Black Knights and the Wight King, because they need specialized lists to do work.

[Obeisance]

I take it the book can support dudespam, cavalry heavy, Monster mash and a hybrid of all three?

Is there any shooting at all?

I'm leaning towards a hybrid build. Monsters, some cavalry, bats and zombies.

Earlier on someone posted a list that was like, Prince Vhordei, Vengorian, 2*bats, wolves, 3*5 knights, 2*20 zombies. Probably something like that?

A buddy said the character isn't that good and I need graveguard.

What are people running at the moment? I know the edition and book are new, just looking for ideas/shopping list.

 

 

[Wordy9th]

What I've gleaned is that the books big winners are: Belladamma Volga, Mannfred and Blood Knights. Graveguard and Vlozd are solid too.

The book has some wonderful creative options, though throwing all your eggs into the blood knight basket seems to be a particularly popular cookie cutter competitive choice so far.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 hour ago, Obeisance said:

I take it the book can support dudespam, cavalry heavy, Monster mash and a hybrid of all three?

Is there any shooting at all?

I'm leaning towards a hybrid build. Monsters, some cavalry, bats and zombies.

Earlier on someone posted a list that was like, Prince Vhordei, Vengorian, 2*bats, wolves, 3*5 knights, 2*20 zombies. Probably something like that?

A buddy said the character isn't that good and I need graveguard.

What are people running at the moment? I know the edition and book are new, just looking for ideas/shopping list.

As much as anyone can tell at this point (we don't exactly have any good data yet) that kind of list will probably do all right.

Prince Vhordrai is fine for his points, especially in Kastelai. The only difference between him and the regular Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon is a headswap, so people will probably not give you too much grief if you later discover that you want to run him as the generic version later. It's not like anyone can tell the two apart, anyway.

You definitely don't need Grave Guard, especially if you have lots of Blood Knights. Their damage output is high and they are a solid option if you want to bring them, though. But you need to have a plan to make sure they actually get into combat, they are very slow with their 4" move.

There is no real shooting in Gravelords. It's probably one of the intended weaknesses of the army. This is one of the reasons a lot of people really like Belladamma: She provides you with two ways to get around shooting with the Lycancurse and her command ability. Plus, she's a really solid 2 cast, +1 to cast wizard at 200 points.

[Warbossironteef]

With the addition of Gorslav and FAQ updates it sort of feels like the most competitive builds for this army will start leaning more towards zombie spam and defensive play styles. Something like this seems pretty good at that playstyle.

Super tough VLOZD with pretty durable support heroes thanks to inbuilt synergies and passing wounds off. Fast chaff and early turn objective grabbers and two blocks of 40 zombies to pop up turn 1 or 2 on aggressively places gravesites. Could be correct to go with 3x40 units but I kind of like having more units.

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Lineage: Vyrkos Dynasty

LEADERS
Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (435)
- General
- Command Trait: Hunter's Snare
- Deathlance
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny
- Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine Pinions
Radukar the Beast (315) 
Belladamma Volga, First of the Vyrkos (200) 
Gorslav the Gravekeeper (75)
UNITS
40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230)
40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230)
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115)
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115)
3 x Fell Bats (75)
3 x Fell Bats (75)
ENDLESS SPELLS & INVOCATIONS
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Soulsnare Shackles (65)
TOTAL: 2000/2000

[oggurt_da_bog_zombie]

10 hours ago, Wordy9th said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Lineage: Legion of Blood
- Mortal Realm: Ghur
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Indomitable
Neferata, Mortarch of Blood (365) in Battle Regiment
Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (435) in Command Entourage
- Deathlance
- Artefact: Soulbound Garments
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
Necromancer (125) in Command Entourage
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
Wight King on Skeletal Steed (130) in Command Entourage
- General
- Command Trait: Soul-crushing Contempt
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
20 x Deathrattle Skeletons (170) in Battle Regiment
- Reinforced x 1
20 x Grave Guard (280)
- Wight Blades & Crypt Shields
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Black Knights (120) in Battle Regiment
10 x Grave Guard (140)
- Wight Blades & Crypt Shields
5 x Blood Knights (195) in Battle Regiment
Command Entourage - Magnificent
Battle Regiment

Total: 1960 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 113

 

I'm going for a legion of blood vibe trying to get as much use out of skeletal units as possible (I loved the idea of the black knights and wight king bravery bombing on the side while filling out the battle line) with a strong vampiric core of Neffy and her pet dragon lord and some blood knights.

I've got a Coven throne, Mannfred and Belladonna spare, the latter two might make it a little more competitive but I'm looking for that perfect mix of using units I like (skeletons and big dragon) while still having it competitive. Also wondering what weapons to take on the grave guard, though I'm leaning towards great weapons, Any thoughts? 

I'm planning on running an incredibly similar list as you, and am pretty excited about it but I'm weeks/months away from actually being able to try it out. List in spoiler tag, and since our lists are so similar, I'll put basically my reasoning for this list below:

 

Spoiler

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Lineage: Legion of Blood

Leaders
Wight King on Skeletal Steed (130)
- General
- Command Trait: Soul-crushing Contempt
- Artefact: Oubliette Arcana
Neferata, Mortarch of Blood (365)
Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (435)
- Deathlance
- Artefact: Soulbound Garments
- Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine Pinions
Necromancer (125)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Decrepify

Battleline
10 x Black Knights (240)
20 x Deathrattle Skeletons (170)
20 x Grave Guard (280)
- Great Wight Blades

Units
5 x Blood Knights (195)

Total: 1940 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 113

Some key notes. First I think in your list you could run "Warlord" instead of "Command Entourage" to benefit from both "Magnificent" and "Strategists". Next, you have three artefacts I think, and I'm not sure thats "legal". Assuming that's just a mistake/typo, I'm wondering what your plan is with Arcane Tome? Is it really for those extra casts? I've sorta thought about this but I think the utility from the other artefacts is a bit more reliable. For my list, I decided to give my first artefact to the Wight King on Steed, and went with the Oubliette Arcana. I have a feeling that since I'll likely be moving the Wight King around a lot, having him be able to potentially negate a nearby spell could be useful. Second Artefact is pretty simple, give soulbound garments to the VLoZD because I want to keep him around as long as possible for obvious reasons.

For spell lores, the best spells seem to be on the warscrolls, so I'm really just planning on casting those and am not thinking about the lore spells much. I haven't decided what to give Neferata and it probably won't matter much anyway, I'm going to use her warscroll spell and then probably just Mystic Shield or something anyway. Although it might be fun to give her a deathmage lore spell, in addition to Decrepify on my Necromancer. Since I'm definitely going to try the mini-bravery bomb with Black Knights + Wight King w/ Steed (and took Soul Crushing Contempt on him, as he's my general for obvious Grave Guard Battleline), maybe somebody in my list should have Spirit Gale for an opportunistic zap, but it seems pretty situational and its probably just better to take Amethystine Pinions.

For the Grave Guard battleline, I'm going with the 2H weapons because I want those guys to hit as hard as possible. My death rattle skellies are the tarpit. Obviously, Black Knights are mostly a battleline tax but I think they serve a few uses: the bravery bomb, ramming into things very early on in the game, and likely dying early so they make a good endless legions candidate.

Obviously Blood Knights seem to be the favored hammer here, but I'm interested in swapping them out for a few games with the Crimson Court instead. I'd like to try using the Crimson Court because Duvalle has a great spell (Fiendish Lure) that I think would be great for basically setting a target for the Grave Guard or Black Knights, he gets to take a spell lore (so could put something like Spirit Gale on him), and I think the court would make a great screen/protector unit for my Necromancer who I have a feeling is going to be hard to keep alive and easy pickings for my enemies! And they are only 5 more points than Blood Knights so its an easy swap.

Last, what I'm most bummed about is I can't fit the Horrorghast in, I just need 5 (or 10 with Crimson Court) less points to fit it in my list, so as of right now I'm just taking the gravetide instead. Heres to hoping Black Knights or something get a points reduction so I can fit it in!

Since you mentioned the Coven Throne, one other list I'm thinking about is just getting rid of the Wight King and Grave Guard, putting Aura of Dark Majesty and Soulbound Garments on the VLoZD and making him my general, running an all deathrattle skeleton battleline, and fitting in the Coven Throne. Can post that list if you're interested but its pretty different than the above!

Edited July 7, 2021 by oggurt_da_bog_zombie

[swarmofseals]

@Warbossironteef I definitely think a list like the one you suggested could be a thing. I've been working on similar concepts recently but have been agonizing about the details. I'll put up some drafts later and add some more substantive comments on yours. But yeah -- Zombies are definitely a sleeper, and I think lists like this could be really good depending on the meta.

 

@Obeisance you definitely don't need Grave Guard. I don't think there is any warscroll that is absolutely needed for a competitive Soulblight build. I think this army has a lot of different ways to approach listbuilding and which ones perform the best is going to depend a lot on the metagame. Grave Guard will be great in a melee heavy meta but pretty bad in a shooting heavy meta.

[Obeisance]

What kind of army would people play into a shooting meta?

I have a pretty healthy/competitive AoS scene locally.