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AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion


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1 minute ago, Verminlord said:

Thanks for the breakdown! Looks like I made the right choice building 20 great weapons and 20 shields. Will likely be the way to go if you're running more than one unit of GG due to limited CA buffs

Yeah, I would definitely say so. It's hard to run several big hammers with support now, at least off of the generic command abilities, but Grave Guard kind of skirt around this by allowing you to run their two different load outs. If you want to run two units, you can probably do something like run the shield guys with your Wight King to give them 2+ to hit, rerolling and Great Weapons with basically anything, like a Necromancer or Vampire Lord.

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1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Not so fast! I was thinking the same initially, but after looking a bit close I going Shields vs. Great Blades is a real choice.

My reasoning is this: If you are planning to buff your Grave Guard at all, then giving them +1 to saves should be a high priority, since they are so fragile otherwise. Since units can now only take one command ability buff per phase, that means if you give them All-Out Defense, they get no offensive CA buff. But a unit of GG with shields can take All-Out Attack instead. This makes their actual damage output very comparable:

Save   Grave Guard Great Blade    Grave Guard Shields, +1 to hit
2+ 6.67 6.48
3+ 8.89 8.33
4+ 11.11 10.19
5+ 13.33 12.04
6+ 15.56 13.89
- 15.56 13.89

Importantly, GG with shields still manage to cross the important damage threshold of 1 wound per model in combat at 4+, meaning that they will wipe units of equal size. If other offensive buffs are in play (Vyrkos +1 to wound, Radukar +1 attack, Belladamma double taps, Vanhel's), the difference between the offensive capabilities of the two units quickly become meaningless: They will both deal enough damage to kill basically anything.

The difference is that Grave Guard with Shields will always have their saves buff, even if the opponent roars at them. And you will not have to use Mystic Shield or All-Out Defense on them, leaving those for other targets.

The choice really depends on which buffs you think will be easiest to give them. My list is Vyrkos and brings Radukar, so I think going shields is the play. In another list, where you can't give your Grave Guard any damage buffs, Great Blades might be the way to go.

Also worth noting, capping saves happens after all modifiers are applied. So any save bonus high than +1 effectively acts like -1 rend: If you apply rend -1 against a save mod of +2, you are still left with +1 to saves. This is weaker than a straight save increase, but worth considering.

uh, that is actually very interesting. Nice spot sire

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Just now, Gery81 said:

I just watched the GMG core book review, and he said that only hit and wound rolls are capped at +/-1, saves are not. He specifically mentioned 2+ save goblins.

Luckily that is not true since save are capped at +1. They just do not have a malus roof since it would make rend useless

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Yeah, I went back to watch the video again. He only talks about dice roll modifiers at the start of the core rules section, where the book only talks about hit and wound rolls. Then he skips right through the save rolls. I had to stop the video to read the rules. So yeah, saves are capped at +1 too

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47 minutes ago, El Syf said:

Props to GW for releasing the rules on download early. Riders of Ruin is officially go baby!

shame on me for having only 20 bloodknights, should have taken more.

ANYWAY, i spotted that now piling in is not towards the nearest model but towards the nearest UNIT. This is very juicy

Edited by Raptor_Jesues
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I just finished painting and converting some old brettonians into pistoliers for CoS, but now that battalions are not in play (and the retreat and charge being one of the only reasons to use them) I'm considering using them as soulblight blood knights. 

Anybody know what base size the new blood knights are on? I take it the 75mm chaos knights bases?

How tall are the blood knights and how would they compare height-wise to the old bret knights? I'd guess a big bigger.

I'm happy to put my cavalry jumping off rocks or over fences or something if that would fix the size difference. 

I don't have much besides a few characters I can convert to lead them, ut on the other hand, an all blood-knight army is actually looking super strong in this new book. 

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It's official in the new edition that no unit can go over it's maximum unit size, so no infitine zombie combos. The rule is in the sidebar of the core rules in the pitched battle profiles section(25.0) for reference. Quote "During a battle, if a unit is at its maximum unit size, no further models can be added to it and any that would be added to it are removed from play"

Sorry to all those who wanted massive zombie hordes

Edited by idn0971
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1 hour ago, Raptor_Jesues said:

shame on me for having only 20 bloodknights, should have taken more.

ANYWAY, i spotted that now piling in is not towards the nearest model but towards the nearest UNIT. This is very juicy

How are you gonna build Kastelai now? Double Dragon? I think that the Ghost Mist-Spell gives us a really usable anti-shooting-tech (not that it's reliable, but at least it's there and doesn't cost points). The fact that we can apparently use one of those without a batallion makes us less reliant on Warlord, which I still think is tax-heavy in Kastelai. 

I thought I'll either 

- Prince V

- VLoZD 

- 30 Skeletons 

- 10 Wolves 

- 10 Wolves 

- 5 Blood Knights 

- 5 Blood Knights 

- 5 Blood Knights 

or

The same, but 60 Zombies + Baby VL instead of the Skeletons and Wolves. Skeletons are pretty much self-sustaining with Rally & All Out Defense, now (but I know you prefer Wolves). 

 

Edited by AHexInScarletRed
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2 minutes ago, AHexInScarletRed said:

How are you gonna build Kastelai now? Double Dragon? I think that the Ghost Mist-Spell gives us a really usable anti-shooting-tech (not that it's reliable, but at least it's there and doesn't cost points). The fact that we can apparently use one of those without a batallion makes us less reliant on Warlord, which I still think is tax-heavy in Kastelai. 

I thought I'll either 

- Prince V

- VLoZD 

- 30 Skeletons 

- 10 Wolves 

- 10 Wolves 

- 5 Blood Knights 

- 5 Blood Knights 

- 5 Blood Knights 

or

The same, but 60 Zombies + Baby VL instead of the Skeletons and Wolves. Skeletons are pretty much self-sustaining with Rally & All Out Defense, now (but I know you prefer Wolves). 

 

i am adamant on vhordrai, vengorian, 4x5 bloodknights and 10 wolves but i am having an hard time on the rest. I realy do not want infantry and i am a bit bored by vargheists so i will try on radukar i think

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Depending on the table Ghost Mist could be useful but I wouldn't count on it too much. The range is super short so you basically have to start your turn near the terrain feature, successfully cast the spell, and then end up still close enough to the terrain feature after you move to break line of sight from enemy shooters AND the enemy shooters have to be slow enough that they can't move and regain line of sight.

 

In other news, Nagash is a PRIEST, and that now actually means something!

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26 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

Depending on the table Ghost Mist could be useful but I wouldn't count on it too much. The range is super short so you basically have to start your turn near the terrain feature, successfully cast the spell, and then end up still close enough to the terrain feature after you move to break line of sight from enemy shooters AND the enemy shooters have to be slow enough that they can't move and regain line of sight.

 

In other news, Nagash is a PRIEST, and that now actually means something!

no, he lost his 'PRIEST' keyword in the new SBGL book

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55 minutes ago, idn0971 said:

It's official in the new edition that no unit can go over it's maximum unit size, so no infitine zombie combos. The rule is in the sidebar of the core rules in the pitched battle profiles section(25.0) for reference. Quote "During a battle, if a unit is at its maximum unit size, no further models can be added to it and any that would be added to it are removed from play"

Sorry to all those who wanted massive zombie hordes

That sounds like you can still go over starting unit size, though, if you don't go over maximum. So if you start with less than 60, I think you can go up to that number.

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8 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

That sounds like you can still go over starting unit size, though, if you don't go over maximum. So if you start with less than 60, I think you can go up to that number.

That would require interpretation of "maximum unit size" by unit type ie. warscroll, and not actual distinct unit you play. And I would argue latter makes more sense in this case, as you are adding models to distinct unit.

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6 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

Ahh good catch, they haven't updated the app. Still wondering if I am remembering incorrectly or not about Hand of Dust range extension.

I haven't seen anything about the hand of dust range extension, so assume it's the same as it has always been (unless the portal changes in 3.0)

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I think this will be the first list I will try out, when the book drops

Legion of Blood

Leaders

- Neferata, Fading Vigour

- Wight King on steed, General, Aristocracy of blood, Soulbound garments or oubliette arcana

- Vampire Lord, Amaranthine orb

Battleline

- 10 Black Knights

- 10 Black Knights

- 30 Grave guard, sword and shield

Other

- 5 Blood Knights

- 5 Blood Knights

- 3 Fell bats

It's 2000 points, 2 drops, so I can choose to go first or second most of the time. Fell bats are there to try and stop "overwatch", Black knights (and Neferata) go and try to get in the first turn. Grave guard can go in the grave to try that first turn charge too.

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18 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

That sounds like you can still go over starting unit size, though, if you don't go over maximum. So if you start with less than 60, I think you can go up to that number.

Remember zombies cap is 40 now, not 60 too.

But yeah it's an interesting point, if I took 20 could they go over 20...

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1 hour ago, Raptor_Jesues said:

i am adamant on vhordrai, vengorian, 4x5 bloodknights and 10 wolves but i am having an hard time on the rest. I realy do not want infantry and i am a bit bored by vargheists so i will try on radukar i think

I just deleted all my previous lists on Azyr and started from scratch now that we know the Coven Throne won't make it into our lists. Have you thought about a unit of 20 Wolves? The Unit Champion now can do Rally + All Out Defense and a unit of 20 isn't expensive for 40 Wounds on a 5+. Unwieldy, though. I also tried VLoZD + Vengorian Lord + 20 BKs, but I'd just fill that with Skeletons + Wolves + Bats. My experience is limited, is why I want bodies (and since its backed by the lore in the book, I'm okay with that). 

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51 minutes ago, Boar said:

That would require interpretation of "maximum unit size" by unit type ie. warscroll, and not actual distinct unit you play. And I would argue latter makes more sense in this case, as you are adding models to distinct unit.

Hard to say. Personally, I would have expected the wording "starting unit size" if they were refering to the unit size at the start of the game. It's an FAQ question, though.

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  • RuneBrush changed the title to AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion

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