AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 hour ago, Skreech Verminking said:

haven’t decided on the traits and artefacts yet, anyways what are your thoughts?

Command traits: Probably Pack Alpha on the Vampire Lord for the free command point so that you can spam Crimson Feast or Hunter's Snare on the VLoZD to pretend you are playing Ogors.

Artefacts: They all kinda suck. Sangsyron on the VLoZD maybe, after that Amulet of Destiny on whoever. Arcane Tome would be good if you had a Necromancer, but probably not in your current list.

[oggurt_da_bog_zombie]

Looking for thoughts/feedback on a Nagash and Vyrkos Dynasty Deadwalkers list.
 

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Lineage: Vyrkos Dynasty
- Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery
- Triumphs:
Nagash, Supreme Lord of the Undead (970)
Necromancer (125)*
- General
- Command Trait: Spoor Trackers
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Decrepify
Gorslav the Gravekeeper (75)*
Belladamma Volga, First of the Vyrkos (200)*
- Lore of the Vampires: Vile Transference
40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230)*
- Reinforced x 1
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115)*
10 x Dire Wolves (135)*
1 x Corpse Cart with Unholy Lodestone (80)*
Umbral Spellportal (70)
*Battle Regiment

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 123
Drops: 2

The basic idea is the Necromancer (along with Gorslav) hangs with the zombies and corpse cart, gives the zombies the 3" move in the hero phase from Spoor Tracker, then gets 2 spell casts from arcane tome, one of which will almost certainly be invigorating aura to heal zombies, and the other either a debuff, mystic shield etc. With the additional heal from Invocation of Nagash, hoping to keep the zombie pack(s) at full strength as long as possible. Corpse Cart gives the zombies a 6+ save and give the necromancer a bonus to cast, seems pretty good.

Belladamma does what she does -- Lycancurse shooting threats -- with a unit of wolves to support and harass. Nagash does what Nagash does, and is obviously the main threat and damage dealer. Gorslav is arguably not necessary but if a unit of zombies or the wolves go down, I'd like to be able to bring them back if the Endless Legions roll fails.

Seems pretty good to me but I haven't played much Vyrkos or used any Zombie mobs so looking for feedback or tweaks I can make. An alternative I've considered is dropping the unit of 20 zombies and spell portal for a second unit of Dire Wolves (and a cheaper endless spell, probably the gravetide), but I think the Spell Portal is a decent threat, and the 20x zombies unit gives the Necromancer/Gorslav a bit more protection since they'll have more bodies around them (as they'd be too slow to keep up with wolves). 

Edited November 26, 2021 by oggurt_da_bog_zombie

[Liquidsteel]

I think Belladamma might not be worth it, as her spell for exploding 6s is wasted on the zombies. Lycancurse is great for sure but you might find her points better spent on more zombies, or perhaps a unit of 20 Grave Guard? Cutting one of the heroes puts you at 1 drop which I think should be considered also.

[Grimoriano]

11 hours ago, oggurt_da_bog_zombie said:

Looking for thoughts/feedback on a Nagash and Vyrkos Dynasty Deadwalkers list.
 

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Lineage: Vyrkos Dynasty
- Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery
- Triumphs:
Nagash, Supreme Lord of the Undead (970)
Necromancer (125)*
- General
- Command Trait: Spoor Trackers
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Decrepify
Gorslav the Gravekeeper (75)*
Belladamma Volga, First of the Vyrkos (200)*
- Lore of the Vampires: Vile Transference
40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230)*
- Reinforced x 1
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115)*
10 x Dire Wolves (135)*
1 x Corpse Cart with Unholy Lodestone (80)*
Umbral Spellportal (70)
*Battle Regiment

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 123
Drops: 2

The basic idea is the Necromancer (along with Gorslav) hangs with the zombies and corpse cart, gives the zombies the 3" move in the hero phase from Spoor Tracker, then gets 2 spell casts from arcane tome, one of which will almost certainly be invigorating aura to heal zombies, and the other either a debuff, mystic shield etc. With the additional heal from Invocation of Nagash, hoping to keep the zombie pack(s) at full strength as long as possible. Corpse Cart gives the zombies a 6+ save and give the necromancer a bonus to cast, seems pretty good.

Belladamma does what she does -- Lycancurse shooting threats -- with a unit of wolves to support and harass. Nagash does what Nagash does, and is obviously the main threat and damage dealer. Gorslav is arguably not necessary but if a unit of zombies or the wolves go down, I'd like to be able to bring them back if the Endless Legions roll fails.

Seems pretty good to me but I haven't played much Vyrkos or used any Zombie mobs so looking for feedback or tweaks I can make. An alternative I've considered is dropping the unit of 20 zombies and spell portal for a second unit of Dire Wolves (and a cheaper endless spell, probably the gravetide), but I think the Spell Portal is a decent threat, and the 20x zombies unit gives the Necromancer/Gorslav a bit more protection since they'll have more bodies around them (as they'd be too slow to keep up with wolves). 

So much heroes, just use Nagash and Necro, you need more bodies, maybe 40z 40z direwolves...etc. 

[Nagashfan]

Hey all, tried a Nagash and blood knight list vs sons of b and got totally wrecked… any advise on a list using nagash that would be strong vs SoB?

[Honk]

On 11/27/2021 at 12:22 AM, oggurt_da_bog_zombie said:

Looking for thoughts/feedback on a Nagash and Vyrkos Dynasty Deadwalkers list.

Nagash is always tricky to use, since he’s just half your army …

just remember, that he does not benefit from the dynasty, since he‘s no vampire. 
And how to tweak, is a difficult question. Maybe the above, less heroes and more Zombers?! Although I don’t think, they really pull their weight except as speedbumps, but that might be my inability to throw some 6s. 

for friendly games, I think your list is fine and something to let loose on your local meta. See how it fares and adjust from there. If you need more mobility, switch into wolves. If you need more damage, grave guard, which can also be summoned from the grave for extra mileage.

5 hours ago, Nagashfan said:

any advise on a list using nagash that would be strong vs SoB?

SoB are the bane of AoS 3.0 😂 four dudes on a rampage in easy mode. Maybe the competitive players are up to the task, but on the grunt level… salt piles and tasty tears

[Nagashfan]

18 minutes ago, Honk said:

Nagash is always tricky to use, since he’s just half your army …

just remember, that he does not benefit from the dynasty, since he‘s no vampire. 
And how to tweak, is a difficult question. Maybe the above, less heroes and more Zombers?! Although I don’t think, they really pull their weight except as speedbumps, but that might be my inability to throw some 6s. 

for friendly games, I think your list is fine and something to let loose on your local meta. See how it fares and adjust from there. If you need more mobility, switch into wolves. If you need more damage, grave guard, which can also be summoned from the grave for extra mileage.

SoB are the bane of AoS 3.0 😂 four dudes on a rampage in easy mode. Maybe the competitive players are up to the task, but on the grunt level… salt piles and tasty tears

As I found out, but there must be lists we can bring that would be tailored to beating the 4 dudes

[Honk]

13 minutes ago, Nagashfan said:

that would be tailored to beating the 4 dudes

I don’t think so… I guess min zombie squats and wolves, then roadblock and play the objective game 🤷🏿‍♀️
We don’t have the damage output to delete 35hp models in one go and the return Fire is brutal. You could go for a delay tactics Legion of Night, or kastelai  maybe 🤔 

With some necromancers and Mannfred debuffing the heck out of your opponent.  Vengorian to reduce rend… then bring in the guards with van hels or the knights.

but that requires 4/5 units to work in unison, while your opponent only has 4 in total…

Well, you felt it, not very pleasant and pretty unfun

[Nagashfan]

9 minutes ago, Honk said:

I don’t think so… I guess min zombie squats and wolves, then roadblock and play the objective game 🤷🏿‍♀️
We don’t have the damage output to delete 35hp models in one go and the return Fire is brutal. You could go for a delay tactics Legion of Night, or kastelai  maybe 🤔 

With some necromancers and Mannfred debuffing the heck out of your opponent.  Vengorian to reduce rend… then bring in the guards with van hels or the knights.

but that requires 4/5 units to work in unison, while your opponent only has 4 in total…

Well, you felt it, not very pleasant and pretty unfun

Yeah was lame, I get deleted turn two basically I wonder if OReapers can do the damage needed

[TheArborealWalrus]

13 hours ago, Nagashfan said:

any advise on a list using nagash that would be strong vs SoB?

Unfortunately, I have no experience with Nagash, but the vengorian with the brick of the keep (Kastelai) neutered my mega gargant opponents very well. Followed up with a roar and they're suddenly a lot less scary.  Prince V backed by rousing commander + Bella's 6's are additional hits, brought a mega down in 1 combat phase. Most of the rest of the army would struggle to kill a mega as well as prince V though. I had 2 units of blood knights backed by rousing commander kill one too. The de-buffs are necessary to survive even a wounded gargant's counter attacks.

Without Prince V or another such damage dealer you'll need to isolate them. Separate a giant from the others and dog pile it with your stuff. Unfortunately, Nagash is at a severe disadvantage against SoB. Wolves are excellent screens and can separate an overextended mega from the rest. If your opponent plays it safe and keeps the megas in pairs you are not going to have many answers in a Nagash list. 

The main thing to keep in mind, (presuming you talk out the turns rather than cutting off at the time limit.) is to try and isolate and drag down individual megas. One loss is one more objective that he can't guard. Place your grave sites to threaten his home objectives. Keep some units in the grave to force him to split up or lose his home territory. Grave guard, buffed up, can do serious damage to a mega. Even 10 of them.

If it's a hard cut off you can play objectives and win on points. Go low drops and summon in the way of/on objectives. At that point wounds per point efficient units will be best. So, wolves mostly. 

Sorry that the SoBs have been giving you a hard time. Hope some of this helps.

[Liquidsteel]

I haven't actually faced them but it's certainly a tough match up for Nagash. Rend 3 really hurts him as you can only finest hour once and Roar stops AoD.

If you can engineer a double, Vile Transference will wreck them and top you up, double cast is 70 dice. 

I think our highest DPS is Grave Guard. 20 buffed with exploding 6s and an extra attack can kill one but finest hour and AoD and either 6+ or 5+ ward will stop that, so need to target wisely and probably throw a monster in as well.

[Nagashfan]

6 hours ago, Liquidsteel said:

I haven't actually faced them but it's certainly a tough match up for Nagash. Rend 3 really hurts him as you can only finest hour once and Roar stops AoD.

If you can engineer a double, Vile Transference will wreck them and top you up, double cast is 70 dice. 

I think our highest DPS is Grave Guard. 20 buffed with exploding 6s and an extra attack can kill one but finest hour and AoD and either 6+ or 5+ ward will stop that, so need to target wisely and probably throw a monster in as well.

 Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Lineage: Legion of Night
- Mortal Realm: Shyish
- Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery - Triumphs:
LEADERS
Nagash, Supreme Lord of the Undead (970)**
 Necromancer (125)**
- Artefact: Morbheg's Claw
- Universal Spell Lore: Ghost-mist
Vampire Lord (140)**
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
Wight King (115)**
- General
- Command Trait: Swift Form
UNITS
30 x Grave Guard (420)*
- Wight Blades & Crypt Shields
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115)*
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115)* CORE BATTALIONS
*Hunters of the Heartlands **Command Entourage - Strategists
LEADERS: 4/6
ARTEFACTS: 1/1 ENDLESS SPELLS & INVOCATIONS: 0/3
REINFORCED UNITS: 2/4 DROPS: 7
   TOTAL: 2000/2000
WOUNDS: 101
BATTLELINES: 3 (3+)
BEHEMOTHS: 1/4
ARTILLERY: 0/4 ALLIES: 0/400

 

something like this maybe?

[BaylorCorvette]

On 10/11/2021 at 8:06 AM, BaylorCorvette said:

Took the list I went 4-1 with for a 3rd place overall finish out of 70 people at a GT a few weeks ago to a 14 person local this past weekend. Ended up going 3-0 and finishing second, there was a SoB player that also went 3-0 and scored 1 more tournament point than me to secure the first place finish at the tournament. 

Game 1 was on Survival of the Fittest against a dwarf heavy Cities of Sigmar Tempest Eye list. He was running a death star of 30 irondrakes buffed out the a$$, basically 58 shots hitting and wounding on 2s with -2 rend then the champs anti monster weapon. He also ran 20 Phoneix Guard to screen / hold the center of the map. I squeezed out a win by basically outflanking or putting everything in the graves, minus my heroes and two dire wolf units. As expected he went to the center objective and as a result I pushed to the two side objectives. I then was able to sweep around one flank and mush his irondrakes back so they couldn't contest an objective any more which allowed me to secure the win.

Game 2 was Tooth and Nail against a Legion of Blood list running the super buffed VLoZD (-1 to hit & +1 save) everything else was Skeletons, Grave Guard, Zombies or foot support heroes. Given that you couldn't put ANYTHING in reserve for Tooth and Nail made things interesting for both of us since we were SBGL players that wanted things in the graves. My Army was much faster which allowed me to dictate engagements. The funny thing was my Prince Vhordrai failing a 3" charge with snake eyes and then using a CP to reroll into snake eyes again, that is a 1 in 1,296 chance!!! My Vengorian Lord tanked the heck out of the VLoZD, some Grave Guard and 2 Vamp Lords on foot for four combat rounds only taking 5 wounds (Fragment of the Keep + Reduce Rend by 1 is amazing!) Anyways I was able to be more aggressive and control the board which gave me the win.

Game 3 was Savage Gains against Vykros Dynasty. I went from never having played against SBGL to having two matches in a row. My opponent I knew really well and he's a great player so it was a fun game that tested both of us (he finished 6th (with a Tzeentch Archaon list) in the 70 person GT that I finished 3rd in . His list was Belladamma, two units of Grave Guard, some wolves, zombies, Necromancer, foot Vampire Lord and allied in was the named Gate Breaker Mega Gargant mercenary. Again the Vengorian Lord came up huge. In about 4 rounds of combat the Gate Breaker was only able to kill a single Blood Knight and put a few wounds on some other things. Fragment of the Keep on a Vengorian Lord is so good. Anyways, the game was super close and we ran out of time, so we talked it out. I had recently gotten a double turn which allowed me to sweep his back lines and then we just rolled off to see who got turn 5 (I did) and we both agreed I would have won.

So another solid showing for this list. I will likely be taking it to the Austin GT hosted by GW in November.

It's been a couple months since I posted here. But since going 4-1 and finishing 3rd overall at the 70 person Hammerfest GT, I took the same list to the U.S. Open in Austin Texas (117 person, two day GT run by GW) and also a local 16 man tournament this past Sunday. The good news is I went 3-0 at the local finishing first place. The bad news is, at the U.S. Open in Austin I did not do nearly as good as I had hoped, going 3-2 and finishing 28 out of 117. At the U.S. Open my first loss was against Legion of the First Prince, running Be'lakor, Bloodthirster, Skarrbrand, Daemon Prince, Contorted Epitome some Pink Horrors and Plaguebearers. The scenario was Apex Predators (only heroes can control an objective), I knew this was going to be an uphill battle since I only have 3 heroes. I decided to go first, because I didn't want to have to chew through all of the horrors. I had Belladamma surrounded by dire wolves and zombies, Prince V in the middle and the Vengorian Lord with a unit of Blood Knights on the other flank. My other unit of BKs got their 9" charge off and killed some Khorne dogs and tied up both Skarrbrand and a Bloodthirster, I only lost 1 and a half BKs in that combat. My opponents turn 1 he only scored his battle tactic (broken ranks), so thigns were looking good end of turn 1. However, he got the double turn and this is where things went to ******. Prince V needed to make seven 4+ saves I failed all of them and he died. Skarrbrand rolled a 6 against my Vengorian Lord and did 16 Mortal Wounds, killing him. Basically by the top of turn 2 I lost. So the rest of the game I just salvaged Victory Points. My other loss came against LRL Running Teclis, a Wind Spirit and some other stuff. It was actually a really close game, my opponent just got off a lot of 5 and 6s on the D6 damage rolls. I'm not too bummed by going 3-2 here, if dice would have slightly gone the other way it could have easily been a 4-1 weekend.

Overall, I am still in love with this book and specifically Kastelai.

On 11/26/2021 at 6:43 AM, ZLee Syn said:

Where can I find the top competetive lists that were mentioned here?

If you look through some of my posts you can find the Kastelai list I've been running with success. 

[Liquidsteel]

Nicely done! Which Artefact are you running in your list again?

I, too, managed to win a local 12 player event at the weekend, my first 3-0 in fact.

I tweaked the list that I had taken previously that was Nagash, Wight King, 4 x 5 Blood Knights and 1 x 20 Zombies, managing 4-1 and 3-2 at Mancunian Carnage and Justice Series GT respectively (James Tinsdale came 2nd with 5-0's at both events with it, I take no credit for the list).

Dropped 1 unit of Blood Knights in favour of a second unit of Zombies and the real reason, Spell Portal. Fits my slightly more defensive playstyle with more bodies, more chances of regeneration and that extra threat range on Hand of Dust and various debuffs.

Games were vs Stormcast on First Blood, Deepkin on Power Struggle and OBR Nagash on The Vice.

Overall the sheer defensive resilience of the list is what catches people out, Blood Knights stick around forever.

[BaylorCorvette]

15 minutes ago, Liquidsteel said:

Nicely done! Which Artefact are you running in your list again?

I'm running Fragment of the Keep on the Vengorian Lord for the -1 To Wound rolls within a 6" aura. It is crazy what the Vengorian Lord has tanked. Also, I usually circle a unit of BKs around his base. That way you have to charge the BKs and you're in his -1 To Wound aura and usually in the reduce rend by 1 aura. Then in my following turn if whatever charged me is still alive, I can have the BKs use Riders of Ruin to get out of combat and charge but the opponent cannot redeploy since they are stick in combat with the Vengorian Lord.

15 minutes ago, Liquidsteel said:

Overall the sheer defensive resilience of the list is what catches people out, Blood Knights stick around forever.

Agreed! My game two was against Tzeentch Archaon and he didn't get roar off, so in his combat phase he killed a single blood knight. Then for the rest of the game Archaon was only able to kill 4 more BKs and that is all he killed the entire game. The mixture of the tankyness for BKs and the amount of bodies we can bring via Zombies or Skeletons is pretty nuts.

 

Also, my Belladamma Volga has been putting in serious work. I have not run her with Spell Portal yet and find that I don't really need to. I just play super aggressive with her and keep her next to dogs to wound shrug. I'm still shocked by the value she brings for 200 pts. Both warscrolls spells are fantastic and her ability to unbind/dispel twice at +1 is really great. Also I've used her Command Ability to pile in dogs 6" several times to avoid unleash hell and still tie up key units.

Edited November 29, 2021 by BaylorCorvette

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

So what is everyone expecting from the winter points changes?

I am actually not sure. Gravelords turned out to be a strong faction, but at the same time I hardly hear people complain about any problem units. That makes me think that if the rules team wants to tone down the army for tournaments, everything across the board should probably go up like 10-20 points so that you end up with a unit less in the average list. The most obvious must-take is probably Belladamma, but she's not even a problem.

We might see a few points drops too, potentially. Black Knights are one obvious unit that need help. Maybe they can become cheap enough to compete with Fell Bats for the role of a throwaway unit that can stop unleash hell.

[JackStreicher]

6 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

So what is everyone expecting from the winter points changes?

I am actually not sure. Gravelords turned out to be a strong faction, but at the same time I hardly hear people complain about any problem units. That makes me think that if the rules team wants to tone down the army for tournaments, everything across the board should probably go up like 10-20 points so that you end up with a unit less in the average list. The most obvious must-take is probably Belladamma, but she's not even a problem.

We might see a few points drops too, potentially. Black Knights are one obvious unit that need help. Maybe they can become cheap enough to compete with Fell Bats for the role of a throwaway unit that can stop unleash hell.

The army and its points seem mostly fine.

I‘d expect reductions for most Cursed city units.

I‘d expect a huge reduction or a rewrite for black knights (I‘ve rarely seen such a useless Warscroll, I’ve no idea how this kind of bland and bad made it into the book. They’re supposed to be mounted grave guard, not mounted skeleton warriors)

[Wordy9th]

I'd predict:

At best, a points increase for GG. At worst a reduction of their damage to 1 and an increase of their rend to -2.

Black Knights points reduction to 110, I doubt they'd do something funky to their warscroll. I assume they see d3 mortal wounds on the charge as too good or something.

Belladamma to go up in points.

VL's janky uncapped +1 to attack clarified.

Blood Knight slight point increase.

Wight King CA buff (okay not really but it'd be swell).

Some slight adjustments to CC units? 

 

We shall see!

 

[BaylorCorvette]

6 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

So what is everyone expecting from the winter points changes?

I am actually not sure. Gravelords turned out to be a strong faction, but at the same time I hardly hear people complain about any problem units. That makes me think that if the rules team wants to tone down the army for tournaments, everything across the board should probably go up like 10-20 points so that you end up with a unit less in the average list. The most obvious must-take is probably Belladamma, but she's not even a problem.

We might see a few points drops too, potentially. Black Knights are one obvious unit that need help. Maybe they can become cheap enough to compete with Fell Bats for the role of a throwaway unit that can stop unleash hell.

Things I'm fairly confident that will go up in points are Belladamma by 15-20 pts, Zombies by 5-10 points.

Things I think might go up in points are Graveguard ~10points, Blood Knights ~5-10points

Things that might drop: Black Knights

I doubt they are going to do much for Cursed City models.

[Gery81]

46 minutes ago, BaylorCorvette said:

Things I'm fairly confident that will go up in points are Belladamma by 15-20 pts, Zombies by 5-10 points.

Things I think might go up in points are Graveguard ~10points, Blood Knights ~5-10points

Things that might drop: Black Knights

I doubt they are going to do much for Cursed City models.

I hope there won't be any points increases, our strong units don't feel under-costed. But, if there will be, those are the most likely units.

On the other hand, we have a few units that need some love. Black Knights, The Palanquin, Vargheists, Mortis Engine for sure, and maybe Neferata, the Coven throne, the Wight kings and our unmounted beasties. Lauka Vai too, but it's mostly her sub-faction that is the problem.

[Kaizennus]

I feel like any sort of aggressive, or even gentle, point changes are going to push people towards more spam lists. For example, I could see them increasing BK's points because people are spamming them and doing well. This would re-balance those lists so that maybe they can take one less unit of BK's, but on the flip side if they become more expensive then you're much less likely to see them put in other lists as a spice unit.

This would be my biggest worry. My favorite way of playing SBG, even if it's less competitive, is playing with a variety of units. My interest in the army will drop significantly if I feel like I have to commit to a single unit type. Though, honestly I don't expect too many changes for us.

From a broader game perspective I would love to see some changes made to support heroes. Right now they are way too much a a viability unless they have a good bodyguard ability (like necromancers for example). Taking something like a Vampire Lord on foot is so risky these days because shooting lists are just going to blow them off the board in a turn. I'd like to see maybe a better version of look out sir, or (more extreme) something like the mirror shield offered as a generic artefact (though it would then suffer the same fate as the amulet and probably be an auto include, unless they made it so you can only take one or the other).

Finally, as far as SBG rules goes I'd actually like to see endless legions changed. I kind of hate the RNG part of it. I've actually gone 6+ (full 5 round) games without rolling it, and then I've also gone several matches in a row where I rolled it every single time. When you never get it off, you are often just kind of screwed. If you get it off multiple times a game then sometimes it just becomes kind of ridiculous for your opponent. Neither scenario is very fun IMO. I'd like to see it changed to something like a once per game ability, or perhaps give it an increasing chance of happening every time it fails instead of using the kill units bonus. Or maybe even change it into something closer to an actual summoning mechanic.

Edited November 30, 2021 by Kaizennus

[Liquidsteel]

I think they just need to change core rules so that heroes cannot be targeted by shooting in the same as in 40k.

Stacking -1 to hit is no longer possible and most of the newer stuff does mortals on unmodified hit rolls anyway.

[Jaskier]

I played against that Kastelai Vengorian Lord with Fragment of the Keep today. My lord, what a PITA. If it wasn't for my opponents' below average save rolling, my Stardrake would have been stuck fighting it forever! 

From an outsiders perspective, stuff like Belladama and Blood Knights seem a tad too good for their points - especially Belladama - but really it's just cool to play against an army that has strong rules, has lots of cool synergies and diversity, and is pointed pretty aggressively but not to a point where they feel oppressive. Definitely a cool book to play against. 

Edited December 1, 2021 by Jaskier

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

13 hours ago, Kaizennus said:

Finally, as far as SBG rules goes I'd actually like to see endless legions changed. I kind of hate the RNG part of it. I've actually gone 6+ (full 5 round) games without rolling it, and then I've also gone several matches in a row where I rolled it every single time. When you never get it off, you are often just kind of screwed. If you get it off multiple times a game then sometimes it just becomes kind of ridiculous for your opponent. Neither scenario is very fun IMO. I'd like to see it changed to something like a once per game ability, or perhaps give it an increasing chance of happening every time it fails instead of using the kill units bonus. Or maybe even change it into something closer to an actual summoning mechanic.

I think this is a fair complaint. Endless Legions is a core ability of Gravelords after all. While the odds to resurrect atl east one thing per game are good after the FAQ, you probably won't attempt to resurrect anything round 1, and then if you don't resurrect anything round 2 and 3 , the odds go down that the game will go much longer.

But I think it's also worth noting how much of an improvement the new Endless Legions is from a design perspective, compared to the Legions of Nagash version. The LoN version let the general resurrect a unit fully for a command point. That was super busted strong, and at the same time super limiting. It meant that you had to run a big, tanky general, keep them near a Gravesite and make sure to run big blocks of SUMMONABLE units to make the most out of the ability. I think this is what made huge death starts so common in Legions of Nagash. The new Endless Legions is not as powerful or predictable, but its implementation results in a much more dynamic play style, where Gravelords armies are free to spread out around the table as much as they like. I definitely don't want to go back to the LoN days, where everyone hated playing against huge, grindy death star builds.

I also think the flavour of the new Endless Legions is pretty good. I like that it works different from "real" summoning abilities. Those abilities are stronger, but as an upside Endless Legions is not dependent on any resources. It just happens (or fails to happen, I guess). That works quite well for the idea of an unstoppable tide of the undead: No matter what you do, there is no way to stop those zombies and skeletons from just getting up again.

So if there are changes to Endless Legions, I hope it's something like once per game, you can just trigger it instead of rolling. I don't see us getting that option while the 2.0 tome is still current, but maybe next tome. Until then, I guess learn to love running Gorslav.

[Liquidsteel]

Yeah I dislike the fact that it's a dice roll, yes it's a dice game but other things can come down to that.

I would prefer Endless Legion be guaranteed and just raise the points accordingly, for example.