AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion

[Liquidsteel]

Just now, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Congratulations on the win.

How do you like Hunter's Snare on the VLoZD? Do you think it's worth using over Pack Alpha?

It didn't effect this game but I think both are really great. 

Having Mannfred around means I never needed All Out Attack, and I was able to save Finest Hour purely for defence, so I had "enough" CP that Pack Alpha wasn't required, but of course more CP is always good.

Hunters Snare plus a unit of Fell Bats is 17 models on an objective, which I think is really great for objective play especially if you want to be aggressive, but I can't say which I think is better as I'm not sure.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

2 hours ago, Liquidsteel said:

It didn't effect this game but I think both are really great. 

Having Mannfred around means I never needed All Out Attack, and I was able to save Finest Hour purely for defence, so I had "enough" CP that Pack Alpha wasn't required, but of course more CP is always good.

Hunters Snare plus a unit of Fell Bats is 17 models on an objective, which I think is really great for objective play especially if you want to be aggressive, but I can't say which I think is better as I'm not sure.

That's nice to hear. It seems to me that people frequently ignore Hunter's Snare, and I was wondering if I am just overvaluing it. I think it has to do with monsters already counting for 5 by default, and the Vampire Lord's command being so spammable that you really want to have those extra command points in a lot of lists. But I think that having a model that can count for 14 models with no way to reduce that number is super solid, especially in a world of 5 and 10 man elite squads.

[Liquidsteel]

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

That's nice to hear. It seems to me that people frequently ignore Hunter's Snare, and I was wondering if I am just overvaluing it. I think it has to do with monsters already counting for 5 by default, and the Vampire Lord's command being so spammable that you really want to have those extra command points in a lot of lists. But I think that having a model that can count for 14 models with no way to reduce that number is super solid, especially in a world of 5 and 10 man elite squads.

I suppose Pack Alpha is probably the better universal, TAC choice, as you will always get mileage out of it, potentially 10 CP a game if you go the distance.

Hunter's Snare may only impact a couple of turns at most, and as you say, the difference is only +9, and if you can get more bodies on anyway, or simply kill enough of the opponent, then it might not matter. It does, however, allow for a souped up VLoZD to act fairly independently as you don't need to completely wipe units to steal objectives, nor do you have to worry about only clearing screens if opponent has a monster that you can't reach but will contest the objective.

Edited January 14, 2022 by Liquidsteel

[Wordy9th]

4 hours ago, Liquidsteel said:

Had a really great game yesterday with a new Vyrkos list, it's nothing that breaks the mould but felt really good. Had played similar lists back in May/June last year when the book first came out, but not with Mannfred, rather with Radukar.

Played for the first time vs Stormdrake Guard, 10 of them plus the Hero, which was fun. We rolled First Blood so the mission was good for him with only 3 objectives, though deployment allowed me to castle up nicely.

I rolled quite hot on some of my deathless saves, I can't lie, and rolled a 5+ turn 1 to sneak back an objective he thought was safe to deny 2 points, however after 2 full turns he was tabled with the score 10-4 to me going in to a potential double turn 3.

The Grave Guard killed 4.5 dragons over 3 turns, whilst the VLoZD killed 2, then left the Knight Draconis that charged him on a single wound (which Mannfred pinged off with an Arcane Bolt), then the remaining 3.5 dragons with just his Lance and Maw.

I managed to get +2 attacks from Sangsyron, then rolled 2 x 6s to hit which exploded, resulting in 6 saves for him to make of which he only made 1, so 25 damage just from the lance.

In future we agreed he probably should have given me first turn, but the temptation to Alpha was there, and he had a very poor shooting phase turn 2.

  Hide contents

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Lineage: Vyrkos Dynasty
- Mortal Realm: Shyish
- Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (435)**
- General
- Deathlance
- Command Trait: Hunter's Snare
- Artefact: Sangsyron
- Mount Trait: Foetid Miasma
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
Mannfred von Carstein, Mortarch of Night (380)***
- Lore of the Deathmages: Decrepify
Belladamma Volga, First of the Vyrkos (200)**
- Lore of the Vampires: Soulpike
Vampire Lord (140)***
- Universal Spell Lore: Levitate
Necromancer (125)***
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Overwhelming Dread

Battleline
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115)*
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115)*
10 x Dire Wolves (135)**

Units
3 x Fell Bats (75)**
20 x Grave Guard (280)*
- Great Wight Blades
- Reinforced x 1

Core Battalions
*Hunters of the Heartlands
**Battle Regiment
***Command Entourage - Magnificent

Additional Enhancements
Artefact

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 134
Drops: 7
 

This list revolves around two main threats - the VLoZD and the Grave Guard, and everything else is there primarily to support that. With buff layering the average damage of these two units is below, Grave Guard having the opportunity to fight twice via Necromancer also.

You can tweak it to be 5 drops by only running the GG in hunters, but I like the possibility of Zombies with +1 attack doing 8 Mortals. You can also run it up to 8 drops by swapping to Warlord and getting an extra CP once per game.

This is more or less similar to the lists I run.  Mixes of Vlozd / Mannfred / Belladamma / VL / Necro / GG being my staple picks. Feels thematic, balanced and fun.

I'm glad to see you fared well against the dreaded dragons!

Edit: How did you stop your 20 graveguard getting mulched in the alpha? Screened with Zombies?

Edited January 14, 2022 by Wordy9th

[Liquidsteel]

1 minute ago, Wordy9th said:

This is more or less similar to the lists I run.  Mixes of Vlozd / Mannfred / Belladamma / VL / Necro / GG being my staple picks. Feels thematic, balanced and fun.

I'm glad to see you fared well against the dreaded dragons!

Yeah honestly the game went almost perfectly for me, I had my game plan to absorb his alpha, then strike back when he was pinned so he couldn't overwatch. In future he will either give me turn 1, or go for the heroes with shooting, though I had the Vamp Lord 9" behind the Zombies so at least he was safe.

I did get a little caught off guard by the fact the dragons explode on death, I lost 13 Grave Guard to the explosions from 4 dragons after they killed them, though by that point they had done their job.

I will give this list another go, with Pack Alpha next time as Neil suggested, just to get a better feel for it again. 

I also want to try out Blood Knights in Kastelai with Mannfred, probably with Vhordrai. 

something like this maybe:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Lineage: Kastelai Dynasty
- Mortal Realm: Shyish
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Prince Vhordrai (455)
- Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine Pinions
Mannfred von Carstein, Mortarch of Night (380)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Decrepify
Vengorian Lord (280)**
- General
- Command Trait: Rousing Commander
- Artefact: Grave-sand Shard
- Universal Spell Lore: Levitate

Battleline
5 x Blood Knights (195)*
5 x Blood Knights (195)*
5 x Blood Knights (195)*
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115)**
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115)**

Endless Spells & Invocations
Emerald Lifeswarm (60)

Core Battalions
*Hunters of the Heartlands
**Battle Regiment

Total: 1990 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 0 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 121
Drops: 6
 

Or even with Bella:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Lineage: Kastelai Dynasty
- Mortal Realm: Shyish
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Prince Vhordrai (455)
- Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine Pinions
Mannfred von Carstein, Mortarch of Night (380)**
- Lore of the Deathmages: Decrepify
Belladamma Volga, First of the Vyrkos (200)**
- Lore of the Vampires: Soulpike
Wight King on Skeletal Steed (130)**
- General
- Command Trait: Rousing Commander
- Artefact: Grave-sand Shard

Battleline
5 x Blood Knights (195)*
5 x Blood Knights (195)*
5 x Blood Knights (195)*
10 x Dire Wolves (135)**
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115)**

Core Battalions
*Hunters of the Heartlands
**Battle Regiment

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 0 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 127
Drops: 5
 

 

[Btimmy]

After playing with the normal VLoZD in Vyrkos w/sang and flaming weapons I have been consistently disappointed with Prince V. The lack of unleash hell, single d6 heal once per game, and one additional point of rend has not seemed worth the points to me personally. Just a few days I played him in Kastelai and still was pretty whelmed. 

 

I havent been playing much with Mannfred, but good to hear you are finding good success with him!

[Liquidsteel]

3 hours ago, Btimmy said:

After playing with the normal VLoZD in Vyrkos w/sang and flaming weapons I have been consistently disappointed with Prince V. The lack of unleash hell, single d6 heal once per game, and one additional point of rend has not seemed worth the points to me personally. Just a few days I played him in Kastelai and still was pretty whelmed. 

 

I havent been playing much with Mannfred, but good to hear you are finding good success with him!

Yeah I don't think I'd take Vhordrai in Vyrkos, but for Kastelai I think it's worth considering.

[Wordy9th]

List discussion questions:

I've been running a 'core' of these units. 

A lot is self explanatory, however I'm wondering how much I'm missing out by not having a Vamp Lord in the list. Even with Belladamma's buff the GG can struggle to put out the alpha damage on certain key targets without the +1 attack. (It's also nice to have it for Zombies in a pinch).

I want to keep the 30 skeletons as a big old screen with a necromancer supporting it (and having more deathmages spells is always nice), and 2x 20 zombies for screening and backcapping objectives. If I swap out the Necromancer for the Vampire Lord it goes to a full 2000 points, but then I lack Vanhels for the skeletons which is a 30 model investment (though perhaps the corpse cart will make them resilient enough) and a VL is way easier to snipe because they can't pass off wounds like a Necro can. I've certainly had many a game where Miss Bathair eats a few mortal wounds from any random snipe and she's gone.

 

TLDR: Is lacking a Vampire Lord a huge deal here? 

Edited for more nerdy stuff*

Spoiler

Belladamma Volga, First of the Vyrkos (200)
- Lore of the Vampires: Spirit Gale
Mannfred von Carstein, Mortarch of Night (380)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Fading Vigour
Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (435)
- General
- Deathlance
- Command Trait: Kin of the Wolf
- Mount Trait: Foetid Miasma
Necromancer (125)
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Overwhelming Dread
30 x Deathrattle Skeletons (255)
- Reinforced x 2
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115)
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115)
1 x Corpse Cart with Balefire Brazier (80)
20 x Grave Guard (280)
- Wight Blades & Crypt Shields
- Reinforced x 1

Total: 1985 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 3 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 136
Drops: 9

 

Edited January 18, 2022 by Wordy9th

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

42 minutes ago, Wordy9th said:

List discussion questions:

I've been running a 'core' of these units. 

A lot is self explanatory, however I'm wondering how much I'm missing out by not having a Vamp Lord in the list. Even with Belladamma's buff the GG can struggle to put out the alpha damage on certain key targets without the +1 attack. (It's also nice to have it for Zombies in a pinch).

I want to keep the 30 skeletons as a big old screen with a necromancer supporting it (and having more deathmages spells is always nice), and 2x 20 zombies for screening and backcapping objectives. If I swap out the Necromancer for the Vampire Lord it goes to a full 2000 points, but then I lack Vanhels for the skeletons which is a 30 model investment (though perhaps the corpse cart will make them resilient enough) and a VL is way easier to snipe because they can't pass off wounds like a Necro can. I've certainly had many a game where Miss Bathair eats a few mortal wounds from any random snipe and she's gone.

 

TLDR: Is lacking a Vampire Lord a huge deal here? 

Edited for more nerdy stuff*

  Reveal hidden contents

Belladamma Volga, First of the Vyrkos (200)
- Lore of the Vampires: Spirit Gale
Mannfred von Carstein, Mortarch of Night (380)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Fading Vigour
Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (435)
- General
- Deathlance
- Command Trait: Kin of the Wolf
- Mount Trait: Foetid Miasma
Necromancer (125)
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Overwhelming Dread
30 x Deathrattle Skeletons (255)
- Reinforced x 2
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115)
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115)
1 x Corpse Cart with Balefire Brazier (80)
20 x Grave Guard (280)
- Wight Blades & Crypt Shields
- Reinforced x 1

Total: 1985 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 3 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 136
Drops: 9

 

I think you are in the realm of just having to try stuff out at that point. If you are committed to the 30 skeleton block, then I think the investment of the Necromancer and Corpse Cart is good. With those buff pieces, they are actually really resilient in a way that they are just kinda not if you skip them. But easy access to +1 attacks for Grave Guard and Zombies is also very worthwhile, so I think at this point it's just a toss up. It's going to come down to whether you want to have that big skeleton block at max defense or whether you want to skew more offensively.

[Liquidsteel]

The +1 attack is really nice, especially as you can roll it over multiple turns, and it can even be applied to a unit that isn't in combat in anticipation of the opponents turn.

It also allows you to turn the relatively weak 20 zombies in to a threat, combine +1 attack with vanhels on them and that's 80 attacks, an average of 13-14 mortals.

With several possible buff targets, you can flex as to where you apply pressure.

[Wordy9th]

Thanks, I assumed the case was a toss up but wanted a second opinion to make sure. 

Just now, Liquidsteel said:

The +1 attack is really nice, especially as you can roll it over multiple turns, and it can even be applied to a unit that isn't in combat in anticipation of the opponents turn.

It also allows you to turn the relatively weak 20 zombies in to a threat, combine +1 attack with vanhels on them and that's 80 attacks, an average of 13-14 mortals.

With several possible buff targets, you can flex as to where you apply pressure.

Indeed, though the choice is between them unfortunately I can't take both without reducing the skeleton block or doing other things that I think detracts from the list too much. The option to make 20 zombies (rather than 40) a potential power piece in combination with vanhels is a really nice, flexible idea that to be honest I didn't think much about.

As for rolling it over multiple turns, I'm really not sure on this. The text says that the unit cannot 'benefit' from the ability more than once per turn. Surely if they have +1 attack from last combat phase, they are currently 'benefiting' from the ability in the current phase, and thus cannot benefit again?

[Liquidsteel]

1 minute ago, Wordy9th said:

 

As for rolling it over multiple turns, I'm really not sure on this. The text says that the unit cannot 'benefit' from the ability more than once per turn. Surely if they have +1 attack from last combat phase, they are currently 'benefiting' from the ability in the current phase, and thus cannot benefit again?

The Core Rules FAQ removed this final clause actually:

" Some older command abilities say either that they cannot be used more than once per phase or that a unit cannot benefit from them more than once. These instructions can be ignored because the core rules no longer allow you to use the same command ability more than once in the same phase."

As a side note, we can infer from this that "benefit from" means to receive, rather than be under the effects of. So if a rule says you can't benefit from something it doesn't stop you if you already received that thing (there's a spell that Teclis can do that stops you using or benefitting from Command Abilities, if he does it on Mannfred from example, that does not disable the aura immediately).

[Wordy9th]

In addition, at the start of the combat phase, explain this straight faced to the opponent wholly within 2 feet of the player.

More seriously, I'll probably not use this in casual play but probably go for it in competitive ^_^.

Edited January 18, 2022 by Wordy9th

[Liquidsteel]

I mean, they made the Wight King Command Ability only apply until the end of the Combat Phase, whilst this one carries through until your next one, so it's not exactly a gamey reading of the rules, it is simply the rule.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

26 minutes ago, Liquidsteel said:

I mean, they made the Wight King Command Ability only apply until the end of the Combat Phase, whilst this one carries through until your next one, so it's not exactly a gamey reading of the rules, it is simply the rule.

The Vampire Lord also didn't get an entry in the latest FAQ, even though the "exploit" of his command ability was common knowledge at that point. Another piece of evidence that the Lord is working as intended.

[Wordy9th]

I never thought about being able to use it in the combat phase even if your units aren't in combat, so if you go first your unit/s will have +2 attacks, and if they double, +3. Pretty neat. Even if you can't stack it on one unit it still has powerful applications spread across a couple units provided you're in range.

[Warbossironteef]

Trying to take a harder look at Legion of Night and Zombies. Vampire Lord with Above Suspicion is kind of a fun little trick to help you get the +1 attacks on your zombies. I haven't leaned into heavy Zombie lists yet but this is where I would look. I feel liek Vanhels is the only thing that makes them viable. This list is built on trying to make Vanhels and the +1 Attack as reliable as possible. That said it still takes some maneuvering to work.  

 

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Lineage: Legion of Night
LEADERS
Mannfred von Carstein, Mortarch of Night (380)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Fading Vigour
Necromancer (125)
- Artefact: Morbheg's Claw
- Lore of the Deathmages: Decrepify
Vampire Lord (140)
- General
- Command Trait: Above Suspicion
UNITS
1 x Corpse Cart with Balefire Brazier (80)
40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230)
40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230)
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115)
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115)
20 x Grave Guard (280)
20 x Grave Guard (280)
TOTAL: 1975/2000 WOUNDS: 188

[Malakithe]

So Legion of Blood is still meh im guessing? 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

3 hours ago, Malakithe said:

So Legion of Blood is still meh im guessing? 

I think they are decent now that they can get a free attack on VLoZDs and +2 to cast and unbind on Vampire Lords. They play in a similar space as Vyrkos and might situationally be better. They also have the better options for defensive builds.

[Ghoooouls]

I've used the new LoB a fair bit now and it is one of my favourite legions now. Necrarchs were always my favourite in the old world, and +2 to cast foot vampires for 140 is amazing. 140 points and you can have a 6 wound 2+ save wizard with +2 to cast.

You could forget the +1 wound trait and go for something like reroll casts/unbinds/dispels with +2, throw in the Arcana thing for 5+ dispel scroll after a dispel attempt, the vamps are just so much better and more fun imo. Every game my little foot vamps have been my favourite thing!

If I'm honest the best thing about the update is +2 to dispel/unbind. That's huge. I play against tzeentch and LrL a lot, so it makes a massive difference stopping those archers getting 5+ mortals and stuff. Also very, very useful for dispelling difficult-to-dispel endless spells like the purple sun, the floating icon thing for LrL (8+) and others which would usually be really difficult to dispel.

The reroll damage mount trait in one game saved my vampire lord who stood and shot against fulminators, rerolled 1 damage to 6. Nice little bonus to have alongside a trait and item.

For the rest of Soulblight, the strike in unison has been really cool and fun, not game changing by any means, but a nice little addition to an already decent army. Also the extra Battle tactics have come into play a few times, always nice to have more choice.

Edited January 23, 2022 by Ghoooouls

[Wordy9th]

I've only just realised 12+ games later that Belladammas Curse of the blood moon ability is an aura and not a targetted spell. ******! No more casting it on the Vlozd and sending him off into the wide world while Belly-d stays back :(.

Edit: On the bright side, folks better watch out for Belladamma's exploding hits now ^_~.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Wordy9th

[Honk]

1 hour ago, Wordy9th said:

On the bright side, folks better watch out for Belladamma's exploding hits now

Her puppies could use the buff, as well as anything fully within 12“ (gg, knights…). Sad for the charging VLoZd, but pretty good for everything else.

[Btimmy]

Still doable to get the VLoZD in, I usually feel pretty safe having bella just outside combat with a unit of 10 wolves near her. Another neat trick is using lycancurse to get a single wolf, retreating it, and then using it for callous overlord the next battle tactic. 

[Chronos]

Hey, can I get your thoughts on a 1000 point list for an Escalation League? Like most people I've probably been overwhelmed by the sheer amount of choice. Here's what I'm thinking:

Legion of Night

Necromancer - General, Unbending Will, Decrepify (or Overwhelming Dread).

Vampire Lord - Shard of Night, Soulpike

40 Zombies

20 Zombies

30 Skellies

10 Direwolves

Comes to 1000 points, 120 wounds. Hunter of the Heartland probably for the Zombies and Skellies unless I want to one drop.

I feel like it's a lot to deal with in 1000 points, even if some opponents might lean into monsters. The secret hammer is the 40 Zombies and maybe even the 20 Zombies when buffed. Legion of Night gives me some cheeky tricks against shooting units(deploy the 20 Zombies close to their back-line) and a little more resilience against shooting in round one. Also, I chose to make the Vampire Lord more of a buffer, so went with the Shard to be able to give a 2+ unrendable save versus non-mortal wound shooting if I need.

Skellies are there to basically live all game and be extremely tough to deal with, Direwolves give me more speed if I need to hit some low armour units.

This also gives me the base of the army as I move up in points. Would love to hear anyone's thoughts, thanks.

Also, can Deathly Invocation be used by both heroes or just one?

[Wordy9th]

20 hours ago, Btimmy said:

Still doable to get the VLoZD in, I usually feel pretty safe having bella just outside combat with a unit of 10 wolves near her. Another neat trick is using lycancurse to get a single wolf, retreating it, and then using it for callous overlord the next battle tactic. 

Don't they have to be part of your starting army to count?

 

17 hours ago, Chronos said:

Hey, can I get your thoughts on a 1000 point list for an Escalation League? Like most people I've probably been overwhelmed by the sheer amount of choice. Here's what I'm thinking:

Legion of Night

Necromancer - General, Unbending Will, Decrepify (or Overwhelming Dread).

Vampire Lord - Shard of Night, Soulpike

40 Zombies

20 Zombies

30 Skellies

10 Direwolves

Comes to 1000 points, 120 wounds. Hunter of the Heartland probably for the Zombies and Skellies unless I want to one drop.

I feel like it's a lot to deal with in 1000 points, even if some opponents might lean into monsters. The secret hammer is the 40 Zombies and maybe even the 20 Zombies when buffed. Legion of Night gives me some cheeky tricks against shooting units(deploy the 20 Zombies close to their back-line) and a little more resilience against shooting in round one. Also, I chose to make the Vampire Lord more of a buffer, so went with the Shard to be able to give a 2+ unrendable save versus non-mortal wound shooting if I need.

Skellies are there to basically live all game and be extremely tough to deal with, Direwolves give me more speed if I need to hit some low armour units.

This also gives me the base of the army as I move up in points. Would love to hear anyone's thoughts, thanks.

Also, can Deathly Invocation be used by both heroes or just one?

Sure, it looks fine. Soulblight bodies with buffing heroes is a great thing. Try to not let all your zombies die in one go and get some buffed attacks off and you should be golden. Looking forward to hearing how it goes. As far as your first 1000 points goes everything in this list is useful and good so well done.

Deathly invocation can be used by both heroes.