AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion

[Leshoyadut]

1 hour ago, Gery81 said:

The greatweapons are actually 3+/4+/-1/2, so your chances to do MWs don't change.

Wow. I...genuinely don't know how I got that wrong, and kept thinking the wrong way for so long. 😅 Woops. Thanks for the correction!

[TurinTurambar]

Anasta Malkorion comes with the rules of a vanilla vampire, but her base is 32mm, not 40mm.

Does that mean that I have to change it so I can play with her by the rules, right?

[JackStreicher]

3 hours ago, TurinTurambar said:

Anasta Malkorion comes with the rules of a vanilla vampire, but her base is 32mm, not 40mm.

Does that mean that I have to change it so I can play with her by the rules, right?

Right

[Wordy9th]

3 hours ago, TurinTurambar said:

Anasta Malkorion comes with the rules of a vanilla vampire, but her base is 32mm, not 40mm.

Does that mean that I have to change it so I can play with her by the rules, right?

Oh, that's dissapointing. I have enough models to proxy as Vampire Lords. I was hoping for something dynasty specific. 

I mean, Malkorion rhymes with... Vengorian.

[Honk]

10 hours ago, Wordy9th said:

I have enough models to proxy as Vampire Lords. I was hoping for something dynasty specific. 

True… and if I need a decent lord old Vlad will get a chance or the dark elf like from underworld or whatever.

and make it 150/160 with some interesting rules…😬 pleeeez

[Obeisance]

So with the team tournament I was preparing for done, I'm gonna finally start working on Soulblight. It's been months of ****** around with OBR (which I hated) and Sons of Behemat, which were fun but not really my style.

As a Sons player, I had -2/-3 rend on demand.. and I still had trouble taking things out. 

In Soulblight, it looks like I'm probably going to have to run double Zombie Dragon for the threat projection and rend, backed up by lots of stuff that deals mortals on hit.

You guys find you struggle with armour skew/killing?

Would you run Kastelli Night spam? They seem a little lackluster.

 

 

 

[Honk]

1 hour ago, Obeisance said:

You guys find you struggle with armour skew/killing?

Yes, cruel math has blunted my high hopes for easy wins 😅

I really like knights, but they have a big footprint and need to be shifted around for the charge bonus.

VloZd has often whiffed, when my dice rolling ignored all probabilities 🤷🏿‍♀️
mortal output from zombies is anecdotal. A buffed charge from  graveguards is nice but the positioning is hard to pull off
 

vengorians survived more than they should and made the wolves hold on tight. While the VloZd looked scary and diverted attention from the opponent, so it still kinda worked out…

This unlife is the hardest…

[Gery81]

7 hours ago, Obeisance said:

So with the team tournament I was preparing for done, I'm gonna finally start working on Soulblight. It's been months of ****** around with OBR (which I hated) and Sons of Behemat, which were fun but not really my style.

As a Sons player, I had -2/-3 rend on demand.. and I still had trouble taking things out. 

In Soulblight, it looks like I'm probably going to have to run double Zombie Dragon for the threat projection and rend, backed up by lots of stuff that deals mortals on hit.

You guys find you struggle with armour skew/killing?

Would you run Kastelli Night spam? They seem a little lackluster.

 

 

 

In my experience Soulblight struggles to deal with the save stacking. Blood Knights have a huge base, and 1 inch reach, so it's difficult to get them all within range, and -1 rend just doesn't cut it. GG needs at least 2 buffs to be scary, otherwise their damage is lacking, 4+ to wound is not great. Our mortal wound output, again, is not great, nowhere near what top armies can produce, and we have to get close and personal to do it. Zombies and GG are really slow, and the gravesites only help with your initial deployment. Also good screening will prevent them to hit anything important. The VLoZD suffers from low number of attacks/4+ to hit on the dragon (yet some orks have 7 attacks to our 3, salt). You need the Prince to deal real damage. Sadly our best playstyle seem to be tons of bodies, with 1 or 2 "big scary" running around killing easy targets. It really saddens me that the best builds (aka 5-0 in tourneys) all have the Mega mercenary. Not a good place to be in my opinion.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 hour ago, Gery81 said:

In my experience Soulblight struggles to deal with the save stacking. Blood Knights have a huge base, and 1 inch reach, so it's difficult to get them all within range, and -1 rend just doesn't cut it. GG needs at least 2 buffs to be scary, otherwise their damage is lacking, 4+ to wound is not great. Our mortal wound output, again, is not great, nowhere near what top armies can produce, and we have to get close and personal to do it. Zombies and GG are really slow, and the gravesites only help with your initial deployment. Also good screening will prevent them to hit anything important. The VLoZD suffers from low number of attacks/4+ to hit on the dragon (yet some orks have 7 attacks to our 3, salt). You need the Prince to deal real damage. Sadly our best playstyle seem to be tons of bodies, with 1 or 2 "big scary" running around killing easy targets. It really saddens me that the best builds (aka 5-0 in tourneys) all have the Mega mercenary. Not a good place to be in my opinion.

I mostly agree with your analysis of what our units can and cannot do, but I don't think it's that bad.

The problem is not exactly that Gravelords can't break through save stacking. We have units that can do it, Zombies and Grave Guard (which I think you are underselling a bit, by the way, their damage has held up against any unit I have compared them to so far). The problem is more that there is no easy way to deliver those units to the targets you want to hit. Which I guess means that we have to get comfortable not playing super aggressive and instead have to play the long game. Both GG and Zombies are SUMMONABLE, so there is a good chance they can stay relevant even in the late game through Gravesite deployment and Endless Legions.

On the other hand, a lot of units in the Soulblight range are very good at playing the save stacking game themselves. VLoZD, Vengorian Lord and Blood Knights can all easily get to a 2+ or better, with a 6++ built in on top, plus the Hunger. So it's not like save stacking only works against us.

I agree that lots of bodies plus a few big threats is probably the best Gravelords play style. Our monsters are overall quite good, but they can't carry a monster mash list. But I don't know that we really need to be sad about having some of the best cheap bodies in the whole game readily at our disposal. Even though capturing has become less important in 3rd edition, the ability to pick up 20 Zombies for 115 to contest objectives is a real boon to a list otherwise filled with big, scary threats. Even 10 Wolves for 130 is quite good.

Not sure that the Mega mercenary is required, by the way. I have only somewhat been keeping up with tournament lists, but I know that I have seen at least 4 different 5-0 lists without it since the release of the book.

[Obeisance]

What have been in the non-Mega 5-0 list? Was it the Coven Throne build?

...

I'm looking at something like..

Kastelli with Vzlod (RC/Amulet), Vhordrei, Vamp Lord (maybe a Necro or Belldama). 

2-3 units of Knights, 2 units of Zombies, unit of Grave Guard.

Plus some Wolves. Maybe Bats.

Double Dragon doesn't give a lot of wiggle room, I have pointed it out.

Stilln not sure if I wanna go Vyrkos with dudespam and Vzlod, but eh. Less to paint.

 

 

 

 

[Liquidsteel]

5 hours ago, Obeisance said:

What have been in the non-Mega 5-0 list? Was it the Coven Throne build?

 

Nagash with Blood Knights went 5-0 (and also 4-1, me) at Mancunian Carnage last month.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

6 hours ago, Obeisance said:

What have been in the non-Mega 5-0 list? Was it the Coven Throne build?

...

I'm looking at something like..

Kastelli with Vzlod (RC/Amulet), Vhordrei, Vamp Lord (maybe a Necro or Belldama). 

2-3 units of Knights, 2 units of Zombies, unit of Grave Guard.

Plus some Wolves. Maybe Bats.

Double Dragon doesn't give a lot of wiggle room, I have pointed it out.

Stilln not sure if I wanna go Vyrkos with dudespam and Vzlod, but eh. Less to paint.

I don't have time to dig them up right now, but if I remember right there were at least two Vyrkos lists and a Legion of Night list that took top placings without a Mega Gargant. They run all the usual good stuff: Belladamma, Mannfred, VLoZD/Vhordrai, Radukar the Beast, Vengorian, Blood Knights, Grave Guard, Zombies and Wolves. Two of those lists were on the Warhammer Community meta watch if you want to check them out.

[Wordy9th]

Apart from Brendan Melnick's tournament win with 30 skeletons in the list, have we seen any other use of skeletons in soulblight competitive wins, or are they usually left by the wayside?

[Gotz]

On 11/1/2021 at 9:41 AM, TurinTurambar said:

Anasta Malkorion comes with the rules of a vanilla vampire, but her base is 32mm, not 40mm.

Does that mean that I have to change it so I can play with her by the rules, right?

are vampire lords on 40mm? The old winged one came in a 40mm, but the base sizes .pdf states that vampire lords go on 32mm bases...

[Gery81]

15 hours ago, Obeisance said:

What have been in the non-Mega 5-0 list? Was it the Coven Throne build?

...

I'm looking at something like..

Kastelli with Vzlod (RC/Amulet), Vhordrei, Vamp Lord (maybe a Necro or Belldama). 

2-3 units of Knights, 2 units of Zombies, unit of Grave Guard.

Plus some Wolves. Maybe Bats.

Double Dragon doesn't give a lot of wiggle room, I have pointed it out.

Stilln not sure if I wanna go Vyrkos with dudespam and Vzlod, but eh. Less to paint.

 

 

 

 

There has been a video posted a bit earlier in this thread that has an interview with the player who went 5-0 with a vyrkos list, mosty running wolves and zombies (and the Gargant). And on the honest wargammer channel they were talking about a Legion of night list that went 5-0 with a Gargant, but I am not sure what was in that list.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

19 hours ago, Wordy9th said:

Apart from Brendan Melnick's tournament win with 30 skeletons in the list, have we seen any other use of skeletons in soulblight competitive wins, or are they usually left by the wayside?

I have seen min sized Skeleton units used in Nagash lists to fill battleline, so there's that.

I think objectively, Skeletons are the most situational battleline choice in Gravelords. They are definitely still playable, but they don't exactly excel at their niche of being the resilient battleline choice with their 5+ save and janky regeneration. Both Zombies and Direwolves give them competition in that role in certain situations, and Zombies are cheaper per body while Wolves are way faster. Skeletons are totally fine in less-than-peak-powerlevel games, but I don't know if there is a strong reason to take them in tournament lists.

[Liquidsteel]

Realistically you probably want them in a block of 30, with a Necromancer to support and have them in hunters of the heartlands so they can't be roared/stomped.

Which is 255 + 125 points. It's not exactly a huge points sink as the Necromancer can be useful throughout the game, however a lot of people are going big on Monsters or other units and so 255 points on a battleline unit can often be too expensive if all you need is a screen or battleline tax, especially when you consider 230 points is 2 x 20 or 1 x 40 zombies.

85 points for 10 is decent and I have used them in the past, however for only 30 points more you get an extra 10 zombies that offer a few additional tactical choices with their pile in shenanigans as well as coming back as 10 not 5 via Endless Legions.

If they got to stand back up every time they took damage (a la Resurrection Protocols) they would be so much better. They're not even that bad, just the amount of shooting and spells you face these days reduces their effectiveness somewhat.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

38 minutes ago, Liquidsteel said:

Realistically you probably want them in a block of 30, with a Necromancer to support and have them in hunters of the heartlands so they can't be roared/stomped.

Which is 255 + 125 points. It's not exactly a huge points sink as the Necromancer can be useful throughout the game, however a lot of people are going big on Monsters or other units and so 255 points on a battleline unit can often be too expensive if all you need is a screen or battleline tax, especially when you consider 230 points is 2 x 20 or 1 x 40 zombies.

85 points for 10 is decent and I have used them in the past, however for only 30 points more you get an extra 10 zombies that offer a few additional tactical choices with their pile in shenanigans as well as coming back as 10 not 5 via Endless Legions.

If they got to stand back up every time they took damage (a la Resurrection Protocols) they would be so much better. They're not even that bad, just the amount of shooting and spells you face these days reduces their effectiveness somewhat.

I have personally really come off of the Necromancer recently after realizing how bad one cast with no bonuses is if you have to get through an unbind. It's basically a 50/50 at best. Although I have seen tournament winning lists that take a Necromancer with Arcane Tome, so I suppose he can't be all that bad. I guess two casts are enough to get out atl least one of Vanhel's or Overwhelming Dread per round. I seriously wonder if a Corpse Cart with that -1 to wound aura or just more bodies are not a better investment, though.

But yeah, I also kinda wish that Skeleton resurrection was a little less janky. They are a lot tankier than you expect them to be if they only take damage in the combat phase, but outside of that they are just 5+ save dudes. They are still cheap bodies and other factions would love to have them, it's just that we have even cheaper bodies available if we want them.

[Liquidsteel]

Yeah I'm not running one at the moment as I'm on the Nagash and Kastelai train. 

I think he also gains worth if you're shooting for a Warlord battalion and need the extra hero.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

25 minutes ago, Liquidsteel said:

Yeah I'm not running one at the moment as I'm on the Nagash and Kastelai train. 

I think he also gains worth if you're shooting for a Warlord battalion and need the extra hero.

There are so many good, underutilized small heroes in SGBL, though! Like the regular Vampire Lord, Belladamma and Gorslav. Maybe even Kritza or Radukar the Wolf if you are in Vyrkos. Although the Necromancer is probably one of the best generic heroes if you have an artefact to spare. Although if you are going for Warlord and then the artefact you get from that goes to the Necromancer, I think it's questionable if the extra drops are even worth it.

[Liquidsteel]

13 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

There are so many good, underutilized small heroes in SGBL, though! Like the regular Vampire Lord, Belladamma and Gorslav. Maybe even Kritza or Radukar the Wolf if you are in Vyrkos. Although the Necromancer is probably one of the best generic heroes if you have an artefact to spare. Although if you are going for Warlord and then the artefact you get from that goes to the Necromancer, I think it's questionable if the extra drops are even worth it.

Yeah of course, it just depends, Belladamma is certainly not underutilised though, she's almost always in if I can fit her!

I'm not too keen on the Vampire Lord myself, not having the bodyguard mechanic is tough when you only have 5 wounds, too easy to remove at range in my opinion, of which there is far too much. Really a wasted potential model in my opinion, would have loved something to match the lore better.

 

[Sception]

Yeah, I wouldn't call Volga underutilized.  She seems to see a lot of play in tourney lists I've seen posted.  I haven't looked at actual usage figures to verify, but my casual impression is that Volga and Vengorians are the most played heroes out of the book.

[AverageBoss]

4 hours ago, Liquidsteel said:

Yeah of course, it just depends, Belladamma is certainly not underutilised though, she's almost always in if I can fit her!

I'm not too keen on the Vampire Lord myself, not having the bodyguard mechanic is tough when you only have 5 wounds, too easy to remove at range in my opinion, of which there is far too much. Really a wasted potential model in my opinion, would have loved something to match the lore better.

 

Not to mention being the only caster I can think of without a warscroll spell. Not helped by how poor the lore of vampires is.

He has a pretty killer command ability. But pretty much every single other thing about him is disappointing.

[JCar09]

The blood knights can charge if they use riders of ruin if they are in combat? 

[TheArborealWalrus]

9 hours ago, JCar09 said:

The blood knights can charge if they use riders of ruin if they are in combat? 

It states that it is a normal move, so yes. The wording on the warscroll overrides the normal movement rules. A little funky, but cool. Makes Blood knights always able to get their charge bonus.