AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion

[BaylorCorvette]

39 minutes ago, NearlyHeadlessNickAOS said:

I will have 2 units of wolves actually so I am definitely thinking that. I think I will stay away from the portal for the simple fact I want more bodies like yourself but the wolves seem just so strong against shooting with Bella. The last two events I played (only one day events mind you) I was a 2 drop and many times ended up not being able to decide the order. There are A LOT of Giants, LRL, DOK and Stormcast/S2D here. My last event I came up against the 4 fox list and 30 sentinels bonanza. Really though that list can take care of most elite units in the game anyway I was just running Deepkin and with forgotten nightmares, it isn't as bad for at least one turn. 

So my plan if I was going up against a 1 Drop or a 2 Drop but they deployed first was going to be deep deploy (closer to my board edge) and possibly more things in the graves and/or have Blood Knights outflank depending on the scenario and opponent. That is the other nice thing about the list. In the event that you do not get to dictate turn order you have ways to work around it. Possibly even keeping things back turn 1 but have something (zombies) pop out of the graves to at least get an objective or two without putting yourself in a vulnerable position.

[NearlyHeadlessNickAOS]

2 hours ago, BaylorCorvette said:

So my plan if I was going up against a 1 Drop or a 2 Drop but they deployed first was going to be deep deploy (closer to my board edge) and possibly more things in the graves and/or have Blood Knights outflank depending on the scenario and opponent. That is the other nice thing about the list. In the event that you do not get to dictate turn order you have ways to work around it. Possibly even keeping things back turn 1 but have something (zombies) pop out of the graves to at least get an objective or two without putting yourself in a vulnerable position.

Having the 2 squads of wolves and zombies seems pretty clutch for screening, capturing objectives and deepstrike threat. Also, having summonable units to come back to life and snag and objective that isn't guarded etc. I am trying to design a similar list with 3 squads of blood knights and playing around with fell bats as well. 

[djrodriguez123]

Can I get y’all’s thoughts on this ?

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Lineage: Kastelai Dynasty
- Mortal Realm: Ghur
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: 

Leaders
Prince Vhordrai (455)*

- General
- Lore of the Vampires: Amaranthine Orb

Radukar the Beast (315)**


Battleline
5 x Blood Knights (195)*
5 x Blood Knights (195)*
5 x Blood Knights (195)*
5 x Blood Knights (195)**
5 x Blood Knights (195)**
5 x Blood Knights (195)**

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment
**Battle Regiment

Total: 1940 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 0 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 116
Drops: 2
 

 

Edited September 29, 2021 by djrodriguez123

[BaylorCorvette]

9 hours ago, djrodriguez123 said:

Can I get y’all’s thoughts on this ?

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Lineage: Kastelai Dynasty
- Mortal Realm: Ghur
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: 

Leaders
Prince Vhordrai (455)*

- General
- Lore of the Vampires: Amaranthine Orb

Radukar the Beast (315)**


Battleline
5 x Blood Knights (195)*
5 x Blood Knights (195)*
5 x Blood Knights (195)*
5 x Blood Knights (195)**
5 x Blood Knights (195)**
5 x Blood Knights (195)**

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment
**Battle Regiment

Total: 1940 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 0 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 116
Drops: 2
 

 

This should be a fairly strong list. What might be a problem is your lack of bodies though. Before going to the two day 74 person GT this past weekend, I had experimented with running another unit of Blood Knights instead of Grave Guard and Zombies. Problem is the Blood Knights are expensive and in your case you have no chaff in your list. Nor do you have something to soak up Unleash Hell. Finally, having some summonable units will allow you to use the Grave Sites along with a chance to resummon them in the battleshock phase. Those components were critical to my eventual 4-1 and 3rd place overall finish in the GT. There were a couple other Kastelai lists that were at the GT, one running 4 units of BKs and another running 5 units of BKs, they performed alright. From a theme perspective I love this list. If you do run this list I recommend Blood Thirsty Triumph to get the re-roll charge. You will want to Out Flank 1-2 units of BKs to make your opponent think twice about deployment and the Triumph that you will almost certainly get at 1940 pts will help get them in.

Also, one other thing I forgot to point out is the lack of mortal wound output in this list. It will have a difficult time getting through good armor, which is the reason I dropped a unit of Blood Knights and Skeletons in favor of 20 Grave Guard with Great Weapons.

Edited September 29, 2021 by BaylorCorvette

[djrodriguez123]

2 hours ago, BaylorCorvette said:

This should be a fairly strong list. What might be a problem is your lack of bodies though. Before going to the two day 74 person GT this past weekend, I had experimented with running another unit of Blood Knights instead of Grave Guard and Zombies. Problem is the Blood Knights are expensive and in your case you have no chaff in your list. Nor do you have something to soak up Unleash Hell. Finally, having some summonable units will allow you to use the Grave Sites along with a chance to resummon them in the battleshock phase. Those components were critical to my eventual 4-1 and 3rd place overall finish in the GT. There were a couple other Kastelai lists that were at the GT, one running 4 units of BKs and another running 5 units of BKs, they performed alright. From a theme perspective I love this list. If you do run this list I recommend Blood Thirsty Triumph to get the re-roll charge. You will want to Out Flank 1-2 units of BKs to make your opponent think twice about deployment and the Triumph that you will almost certainly get at 1940 pts will help get them in.

Also, one other thing I forgot to point out is the lack of mortal wound output in this list. It will have a difficult time getting through good armor, which is the reason I dropped a unit of Blood Knights and Skeletons in favor of 20 Grave Guard with Great Weapons.

Thanks for advice, yea I was thinking maybe the 10 wolves spawned by radukar might be good enough for chaff but I could be wrong. Mortals wounds lacking is also a issue potentially. 

[NearlyHeadlessNickAOS]

@BaylorCorvette I just wanted to check in and see how you were using the Vengorian Lord in regard to Undeniable Impulse. It reads that you cannot "use" a command ability if you roll equal or less than the current battle round. Does that mean that The Vengorian Lord could not receive a command from another Hero like Prince V?

Edited September 29, 2021 by NearlyHeadlessNickAOS

[BaylorCorvette]

7 minutes ago, NearlyHeadlessNickAOS said:

@BaylorCorvette I just wanted to check in and see how you were using the Vengorian Lord in regard to Undeniable Impulse. It reads that you cannot "use" a command ability if you roll equal or less than the current battle round. Does that mean that The Vengorian Lord could not receive a command from another Hero like Prince V?

The way I and several others have interpreted it is that the Vengorian Lord cannot issue a CA but can still receive one. I personally find myself rarely using a CA ON the Vengorian Lord anyways so not a huge hit if a TO were to rule it differently. Maybe an all out defense every now and then. Ironically I have very rarely rolled for him to go insane, even in the later rounds.

Edited September 29, 2021 by BaylorCorvette

[NearlyHeadlessNickAOS]

I figured something like All Out Defence on him would be so vital to keep him around and you would really want to keep that -1 to wound aura and -1 rend ability going. Because it says "use" and not issue or receive it seems a little confusing. If you were to receive a Command Ability it seems as if you are still using it but I was unsure. It seems to be pretty mixed when it comes to the thoughts on this :S.

[BaylorCorvette]

48 minutes ago, NearlyHeadlessNickAOS said:

I figured something like All Out Defence on him would be so vital to keep him around and you would really want to keep that -1 to wound aura and -1 rend ability going. Because it says "use" and not issue or receive it seems a little confusing. If you were to receive a Command Ability it seems as if you are still using it but I was unsure. It seems to be pretty mixed when it comes to the thoughts on this :S.

Without an FAQ it can be argued either way, so always good to get clarification from the TO beforehand or discuss with your opponent. 

[Warmill]

20 hours ago, NearlyHeadlessNickAOS said:

@BaylorCorvette I just wanted to check in and see how you were using the Vengorian Lord in regard to Undeniable Impulse. It reads that you cannot "use" a command ability if you roll equal or less than the current battle round. Does that mean that The Vengorian Lord could not receive a command from another Hero like Prince V?

The way I would interpret it is that he can't issue or receive targeted command abities, but can still be affected by aura command abilities. This is based on the core rules faq, I've highlighted the relevant bit. Yeah it would be clearer if it said cannot issue or receive, but I think arguing receiving a CA doesn't count as using one would be a tough ask m'lud. I always run Lauka and a venga boy so it does pain me when I can't pop an all out defence to make them super tanky.

 

[Leshoyadut]

8 hours ago, Warmill said:

The way I would interpret it is that he can't issue or receive targeted command abities, but can still be affected by aura command abilities. This is based on the core rules faq, I've highlighted the relevant bit. Yeah it would be clearer if it said cannot issue or receive, but I think arguing receiving a CA doesn't count as using one would be a tough ask m'lud. I always run Lauka and a venga boy so it does pain me when I can't pop an all out defence to make them super tanky.

But directly under where you highlight has "use" being, well, used in the sense of issuing a command, not receiving one.

[Warmill]

1 hour ago, Leshoyadut said:

But directly under where you highlight has "use" being, well, used in the sense of issuing a command, not receiving one.

I've included the rest of the text here for completeness:

So use in that case is just the wording of the command ability, because sbgl was written with one foot in aos 2.0 where all command abilities just say 'use', and aos 3.0 where issue and receive have distinct meanings. The effect on manny is that to 'use' the ability has the effect of both issuing and receiving on him in that first phase, receiving on other units in that phase (core rules faq again), but not receiving on himself or other units in future phases.

 

In the case of our venga boy, the most concrete definition of what 'use' means is in rule 6.1:

So using a command ability specifically requires a cp, an issuing unit and a receiving unit (both bolded). It's establishing that you can't separate the act of of using a command ability from needing an issuer and receiver. If the rule says venga boy can't use a command ability, I think it's fair to take from that that he can't be the issuer or the receiver; since both are required to complete the action of using a command ability, if he's used to fulfil one of the requirements he's being used to use a command ability.

 

Ultimately it's a case of applying 3.0 rules to 2.0 language, and the 3.0 version would be 'this model cannot issue or receive a command ability', but we have to work with what we've got in the meantime and I think it's about as close to a logical interpretation based on the rules as written as you're going to get.

Edited October 1, 2021 by Warmill

[Leshoyadut]

46 minutes ago, Warmill said:

In the case of our venga boy, the most concrete definition of what 'use' means is in rule 6.1:

So using a command ability specifically requires a cp, an issuing unit and a receiving unit (both bolded). It's establishing that you can't separate the act of of using a command ability from needing an issuer and receiver. If the rule says venga boy can't use a command ability, I think it's fair to take from that that he can't be the issuer or the receiver; since both are required to complete the action of using a command ability, if he's used to fulfil one of the requirements he's being used to use a command ability.

This part seems a lot more clearly favoring your interpretation. Intuitively, "use" would seem to mean issuing the command ability, but 6.1 does seem to show that both issuing and receiving are involved in the language of "using" the command ability. Appreciate the followup!

[Liquidsteel]

Yeah I agree with @Warmill.

It's the same reason I argued against people using the battalion abilities for Unleash hell more than once, as Receiving counts as Using.

There are, unfortunately, still quite a lot of grey areas where a term is used but is not codified.

You get "benefit" causing issues with certain command abilities.

[Obeisance]

Well, I think actually painting SB is going to be my next project. I've purchased heaps, hopped over to other stuff and I'm back again a few months later.

So in the interest of cutting down my painting queue, what kind of build do you guys think it's the most competitive for singles events?

Triple monster is probably the way to go. But I guess that pushes into Kastelli with Knights, or Vyrkos with zombies and stuff. Ehh.

 

[Honk]

12 minutes ago, Obeisance said:

what kind of build do you guys think it's the most competitive for singles events?

Depends heavily on your skill set and preferences…

Nagash list is still brutal if played right. 

Double Dragon with knights and wolves.

Well balanced Radukar with grandma list…

SBGL has too many options and synergies for a „take 4 megas and win“ approach 🤷🏿‍♀️

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 hour ago, Obeisance said:

Triple monster is probably the way to go. But I guess that pushes into Kastelli with Knights, or Vyrkos with zombies and stuff. Ehh.

What kind of triple monster list do you have in mind here? I don't think the winning Gravelords lists have generally been focussing on bringing big monsters.

All the competitive lists that come to mind for me run two monsters: Double Dragon, Mannfred+Vengorian Lord, Nagash+something... Neither Belladamma nor Radukar have the MONSTER keyword.

[Obeisance]

Funny you say that- a buddy completed my 4 big boi comission yesterday. Just in time for them to apparenty be amazing and a tournament tomorrow. 

...

But yeah, that's what I like about Soublight for longevity, but dislike for trying to work out what I paint first. The whole book seems valid, which is sweet. The army is so full of stuff I don't know where I want to go first.

I feel like a VZLOD and/or Lord Vhordrei is needed. Probably Manfred because he's really good at everything. I don't know if I want a Vengorian, I think it's kind of either that or a Vamp Lord general.

Probably Grave Guard. I guess the question really boils down to.. do I want to play with a bunch of Blood Knights or not.

 

[Le Chef]

On 10/2/2021 at 3:59 AM, Obeisance said:

Funny you say that- a buddy completed my 4 big boi comission yesterday. Just in time for them to apparenty be amazing and a tournament tomorrow. 

...

But yeah, that's what I like about Soublight for longevity, but dislike for trying to work out what I paint first. The whole book seems valid, which is sweet. The army is so full of stuff I don't know where I want to go first.

I feel like a VZLOD and/or Lord Vhordrei is needed. Probably Manfred because he's really good at everything. I don't know if I want a Vengorian, I think it's kind of either that or a Vamp Lord general.

Probably Grave Guard. I guess the question really boils down to.. do I want to play with a bunch of Blood Knights or not.

 

I had some similar dilemmas and worked towards 3 main lists (2 Kastelai, 1 Vyrkos). They all have Vordrai or VLoZD, Belladamma, 20 grave guard, 2x5 blood knights, 20 zombies. Options are a Coven Throne, VLoZD, Vengorian Lord, 2x10 Dire wolves, 20 zombies. This is actually also my queue for painting.

[Thamalys]

On 10/1/2021 at 3:55 PM, Honk said:

SBGL has too many options and synergies for a „take 4 megas and win“ approach

This. It's a splendid book in this regard, you have many options at your disposal, most of them fairly viable. 

Kastelay with 4/5 units of Blood Knights is an option, but (a.) I personally dislike spam lists even when talking Blood Knights (my favourite sculpts in the game) and; (b.) in my opinion you have to take some summonable units in a SG list, the gravesites mechanics is too good to just ignore it.

Nagash + <insert random stuff here> is still a very strong build, albeit very dependent on the match up. Some armies don't have the damage and/or don't have the tarpits to deal with the Big Man Himself. Some others will shoot everything else off the board and plonk bodies against Nagash for 5 turns straight. I never liked playing Nagash, but that's personal preference / play style.

Vykros, Avengoori and Legion of Night all offer very viable builds. As a Legion of Blood player, I am trying to figure out a balanced list myself, but some work is still needed.

On 10/2/2021 at 2:59 AM, Obeisance said:

but dislike for trying to work out what I paint first. The whole book seems valid, which is sweet. The army is so full of stuff I don't know where I want to go first.

Pick the stuff that you think you'll enjoy more painting - if you have the whole range, you'll end up in a decent place anyway. I have to say, this (i.e. buying the whole lot and trying to narrow it down later) is not my usual approach, so I might not be the best person to offer a suggestion here...

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

2 hours ago, Thamalys said:

Vykros, Avengoori and Legion of Night all offer very viable builds. As a Legion of Blood player, I am trying to figure out a balanced list myself, but some work is still needed.

I have been looking at Legion of Blood, as well. Definitely seems like the hardest lineage to make work. There is not really a lot there that is obviously worth focussing on.

I don't think the extra battleshock casualties from Immortal Majesty are worth building around. That is more of a bonus if it happens, I'd say. Previously, I was toying with the idea of giving a Wight King on Steed the Soul-Crushing Contempt command trait and sending him in with a unit of Black Knights for a combined -3 to bravery, +1d3 extra units fleeing. But it turns out that Immortal Majesty is VAMPIRE keyword only, so that doesn't even work.

Given that the only other battle trait, Favoured Retainers, prevents negative modifiers to hit and wound for Deathratte if a vampire is nearby, my instinct is to focus on Grave Guard to make that worth it. Maybe a big block of 20+ with a Coven Throne for support. The Throne benefits from being in Legion of Blood, since you can give it Soulbound Garments for +1 to saves (it's usually on a 4+) and a good command trait like a reroll charge aura, +3" pile in aura or just -1 to be hit in melee.

Other than that, I think taking Neferata might be good. The ability to insta-kill models is pretty nice, and she has a lot of defensive tools that will help keep your troops alive. OK magic, as well.

Still, I find it hard to point to something that Legion of Blood definitely does better than everyone else. I hope that Black Knights get some kind of adjustment to make them worthwhile, that would definitely make the subfaciton more interesting.

[Thamalys]

@Neil Arthur Hotep, I agree with your analysis. At the moment, the one thing that Legion of Blood seems to be doing slightly better than the rest of the BloodLines is to keep your VLoZD alive for longer. Soulbound Garment makes brings him on a 2+ base, which is quite cool. If you bring Neferata (yes, that's a LOT of points, but hear me out...) you can make that 2+ "unrendable", which is gross, and on top of that you can give him Aura of Dark Majesty for a flat -1 to hit, which you can double via Neferata's command ability (Twilight Allure) to counteract any All out Attack commands. You are looking at 14 wounds on a 2+ unrendable save and -1 to hit with healing. Not shabby. However, mortal wounds will bring him down, and he's not the blender he was in the "old" Legion of Blood. Damage-wise he can spike, but nothing you can rely on. The Coven Throne can help to a point in that department. I found it weird that the allegiance ability asks you to focus on Deathrattle, but then again we have the Kastelai for the Blood Knights, so...

[Warbossironteef]

On 9/27/2021 at 1:35 PM, BaylorCorvette said:

Well folks the Hammerfest GT was this past weekend, a total of 74 people attended (in the quote above you can see some stats on the lists), I went 4-1 and finished 3rd Overall with my Kastelai list. I also won Best Death Player and also best "Chris". The last award was a meme award since the most common player name was Chris, lol. First and Second place were both Daughters of Khaine lists running Morathi and a block of 15 bow Snakes.

Quick Highlight of my games:

-Game 1 was against Bonesplitters running a Rogue Idol and Kragnos on First Blood. Highlight was Rogue Idol getting a triple move spell off and flying across the board. Got Prince Vhordrai down to 4 wounds remaining but on my turn I finished off the Rogue Idol and between the Chalice and Heroic Recovery and the Hunger I got him nearly back to full. Meanwhile due to how I zoned Kragnos out he really only ever saw combat round 2 when he wiped some wolves and then at the end of round 5 when I tabled Bonesplitters and only Kragnos was remaining, the Prince did 15 wounds with just his lance and then the dragon finished him off.

-Game 2 was against Sons of Behemat and was my only loss on Tectonic Interference. It was a Kraken Eater (amulet of destiny), Warstomper (artifact to re-roll his saves) and two units of 3 mini giants. Turn 1 he crashed into my lines which I expected. What I didn't expect was him to roll three 6's in a row to stuff three Blood Knights into a bag! I thought the game was nearly decided top of turn 1. I somehow managed to salvage the turn, got the double turn and made it a game that went into turn 5 where he only had the Kraken Eater left. Ultimately he won by 4 VPs.

-Game 3 was against Seraphon running Lord Kroak on Savage Gains. It was basically a race to see if he could kill me with Magic and shooting before I crashed into his lines. The answer was no he couldn't, lol. I decimated his units and just had too many bodies zoning him out.

-Game 4 was against KO running Flair Pistol for re-roll all hits on all his units against one of mine for 1 turn and Spell in a bottle with Warp Lightning Vortex. He had 1 Ironclad, 2 Frigates and 2 Gunhaulers with support heroes and chaff. This was on Power Struggle. Turn 1 he killed Belladamma and a unit of drive wolves, however I rolled a 5 in the battleshock phase to return a unit of dire wolves which I promptly did on one of his objectives that he left which also resulted in him failing his battle tactic and scoring 0 VPs turn 1. A unit of graveguard with great weapons got a frigate down to 1 wound remaining in one go around and then killed it next turn, some blood knights and a Vengorian Lord killed the other Frigate and from there on I just had bodies on objectives.

-Game 5 was against Big Waagh on Feral Foray and by far the most intense as one might expect at a top table in the final round. The list had a Megaboss on Mawcrusha with Rend -3 artifact and command trait to free mighty destroyers. He also had a unit of 6 Gore-gruntas and a unit of 15 Savage Orruk Arrowboys along with a a few min sized units of Savage Orruks for chaff. We traded blows throughout the game. 90 shots from the Arrowboys having 6s to hit generating an additional hit (from a spell) are no joke! On turn 3 his Mawcrusha came in and did like 25-30 wounds to Prince Vhordrai, killing him. However on the next turn he picked Slay the Warlord as his battle tactic. Knowing this I popped Finest Hour on my Vengorian Lord. At the start of combat my Vengorian Lord had 8 wounds remaining, the Mawcrusha failed to roar at me so I popped all out defense. So I reduced his rend by 1 from the Vengorian Lords ability and then had +2 to my save. I had to make 6 saves against the Boss Gore-hacka at dmg 3 and like 5 saves against the mount that were damage 3 as well. The freaking Vangorian Lord tanked the ****** out of it and didn't fail a single save! He failed the battle tactic which basically secured the victory for me.

-Final Thoughts: As expected, Prince Vhordrai always attracted the attention of my opponent as the primary target, which is exactly what I want. Between having 14 wounds, a 3+ save, the Chalice, and easy Heroic Recovery the Prince can tank a lot. This allows my Vengorian Lord to move up the board with the 2 units of Blood Knights and crash into something very important and pop Rousing Commander. Having two gravesites site near the back corners in my opponents territory but still in range of an objective is KEY! I would just keep a 20 block of zombies in the graves and my opponent either had to baby sit or would forget or not care and then out come the zombies and take an objective. Units coming back at half strength in the battleshock phase is HUGE but not super reliable. It did come in clutch for me twice though.  Belladamma performed really great. Under the Killing Moon is amazing and she was able to shut down enemy magic pretty well. Lycan Curse never really came up huge for me given the opponents I played against. However different opponents (lots of shooting) could be huge. Overall, I am very happy with how the list performed. There were 5 other Soulblight Gravelord lists at this tournament, a few of which were Kastelai (one ran 4 units of BKs and another list ran 5 units of BKs). Even in Kastelai I do not thinking having a ton of BKs is the answer. A single unit of 20 grave guard with Great Weapons without any buffs other than an all out attack is sufficient to destroy or severely cripple things. This list has a bunch of threats and a reasonable amount of bodies and chaff.

Here is my list:
Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Lineage: Kastelai Dynasty
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Bloodthirsty

LEADERS
Vengorian Lord (280)**
- General
- Command Trait: Rousing Commander
- Artefact: Fragment of the Keep
- Lore of the Vampires: Vile Transference

Prince Vhordrai (455)*
- Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine Pinions

Belladamma Volga, First of the Vyrkos (200)*
- Lore of the Vampires: Amaranthine Orb

UNITS
5 x Blood Knights (195)*
5 x Blood Knights (195)*
10 x Dire Wolves (135)*
10 x Dire Wolves (135)**
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115)**
20 x Grave Guard (280)*
- Great Wight Blades

CORE BATTALIONS
Battle Regiment*
Battle Regiment**

TOTAL: 1990/2000

WOUNDS: 143

Congrats and thanks for sharing! Have you done a lot of testing with Manni in this list? He feels like such a force multipler in BK lists and also has good interactions with MegaGargants and other melee focused armies. 

The fact that he can run up with your BKs super aggro, buff them and then later in the game TP and give buffs to GG seems so good. +1 hit and wound on BKs seems like a big deal and is more damage than Bella's buff. It's also a CA so cant be unbound, trade off is your losing the +1 to cast and Lycancurse.

Manni can also bring better spells and help cripple Mega's output with Decrepify. Such a good spell against Gargants. 

Edited October 5, 2021 by Warbossironteef

[BaylorCorvette]

4 minutes ago, Warbossironteef said:

Congrats and thanks for sharing! Have you done a lot of testing with Manni in this list? He feels like such a force multipler in BK lists and also has good interactions with MegaGargants and other melee focused armies. 

The fact that he can run up with your BKs super aggro, buff them and then later in the game TP and give buffs to GG seems so good. +1 hit and wound on BKs seems like a big deal.

Thanks.

I have not tested Mannfred yet. I've considered him several times, the problem is points. I would need to drop Belladamma and a unit of wolves. I find Belladamma as useful or more. Assuming she gets "Under the Killing Moon" off, then the +1 To Hit and Wound from Mannfred would be offset a bit. Her spell package is better than Mannfred's, although he could take a spell from the Deathlords lore which is nice. Also her CA to let a unit of dogs activate and pile in 6" is very useful. My initial feel is not to have both Mannfred AND Prince Vhordrai, that is getting pretty close to 50% of the army tied up in those two models. I may play around with a Legion of Night list with Mannfred in it, since it can largely do similar things (out flank BK's if I wanted to still).

[Warbossironteef]

32 minutes ago, BaylorCorvette said:

Thanks.

I have not tested Mannfred yet. I've considered him several times, the problem is points. I would need to drop Belladamma and a unit of wolves. I find Belladamma as useful or more. Assuming she gets "Under the Killing Moon" off, then the +1 To Hit and Wound from Mannfred would be offset a bit. Her spell package is better than Mannfred's, although he could take a spell from the Deathlords lore which is nice. Also her CA to let a unit of dogs activate and pile in 6" is very useful. My initial feel is not to have both Mannfred AND Prince Vhordrai, that is getting pretty close to 50% of the army tied up in those two models. I may play around with a Legion of Night list with Mannfred in it, since it can largely do similar things (out flank BK's if I wanted to still).

I agree it's definitely a tradeoff. If I were to try out Manni I would bring in a Wight King on Steed and Manni for Bella, V Lord and then change 1 unit of wolves to 20xZombies. That comes to 2k exactly. 

Dont sleep on Manni's movement ability and teleport. He is a nightmare for melee armies. His CA is also amazing on Prince V because of how valuable his attacks are. It's a tough choice and I think both have merits. I personally think Manni can swing certain matchups in your favor and I love his interactions with Prince V. 

I really like your core list and I think it's the motivation I need to buy another BK box.... They are so expensive right now.