AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion

[Btimmy]

10 minutes ago, Leshoyadut said:

There is nothing about Bravery being capped in either direction in the core rules. So yes, it does stack as it states in the SG book.

The rolls state that modifiers to a dice roll are capped at +1/-1, though I suppose the ability doesn't modify the battleshock roll so much as the characteristic of the unit. 

[Leshoyadut]

2 hours ago, Btimmy said:

The rolls state that modifiers to a dice roll are capped at +1/-1, though I suppose the ability doesn't modify the battleshock roll so much as the characteristic of the unit. 

Even if it did modify the roll, that limit only applies to hit rolls and wound rolls. Save rolls have a similar, but different, cap in that they can be modified negatively as much as you have minuses for, but cap out in the positive direction at +1. All others are cumulative.

Also, yes, it modifies the Bravery statistic and not the roll, which matters for a couple of spells, as well.

Edited September 3, 2021 by Leshoyadut

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

11 hours ago, Btimmy said:

can you use deathly invocation to heal a unit that comes back via endless legions?

Yes, but not above their starting size, which is half the size of the original unit.

The rules are actually clear in this regard: The units brought back by Endless Legions are considered to be completely separate units from the ones that are resurrected. That means they don't get battlefield roles and their starting size is the size they hit the table at, not the size of the original unit.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

I see a lot of discussion about Chronomantic Cogs at the moment. What do you guys think about Cogs in Gravelords?

Just to get everyone on the same page: A lot of people right now think that Cogs might be too good, because of how cheap, safe and valuable it is. The reroll charge mode the spell offers is nice, but people are focussing on the extra cast aspect of the spell, because an extra cast for 45 points might even be good enough if you only have two wizards.

On the surface, Gravelords seem like they should be in a prime position to exploit Cogs, since Gravelords lists can easily end up bringing 3-4 wizards by accident. However, I have personally found this not to be 100% true, since many of our wizards want to go out and do things, not hang around within 6" of an Cogs (Mortarchs, Vengorian Lord, VLoZD, even Belladamma).

However, I think Cogs might be pretty good in a modest double Necromancer build. The problem with Necromancers is usually that they don't have enough casts to make use of the excellent Deathmages lore. So getting them an extra cast seems pretty good! Two Necromancers, a Corpse Cart and Cogs comes in at just 375 points for a pretty good support package. Maybe you could even give on of those Necromancers the Arcane Tome for an extra cast, or Morbegh's Claw for another +2 to cast if you are in Legion of Night.

I also had the idea of trying to use Cogs to unlock the potential of Deathly Invocation. Gravelords are in the nice position to have an extra spell that all wizards know and that can be cast as many times as you like, so it's easier to make use of extra casts. The ability to just flat heal 3 extra wounds on all your summonables seems pretty good if you could somehow make it reliable.

[Liquidsteel]

3 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I see a lot of discussion about Chronomantic Cogs at the moment. What do you guys think about Cogs in Gravelords?

Just to get everyone on the same page: A lot of people right now think that Cogs might be too good, because of how cheap, safe and valuable it is. The reroll charge mode the spell offers is nice, but people are focussing on the extra cast aspect of the spell, because an extra cast for 45 points might even be good enough if you only have two wizards.

On the surface, Gravelords seem like they should be in a prime position to exploit Cogs, since Gravelords lists can easily end up bringing 3-4 wizards by accident. However, I have personally found this not to be 100% true, since many of our wizards want to go out and do things, not hang around within 6" of an Cogs (Mortarchs, Vengorian Lord, VLoZD, even Belladamma).

However, I think Cogs might be pretty good in a modest double Necromancer build. The problem with Necromancers is usually that they don't have enough casts to make use of the excellent Deathmages lore. So getting them an extra cast seems pretty good! Two Necromancers, a Corpse Cart and Cogs comes in at just 375 points for a pretty good support package. Maybe you could even give on of those Necromancers the Arcane Tome for an extra cast, or Morbegh's Claw for another +2 to cast if you are in Legion of Night.

I also had the idea of trying to use Cogs to unlock the potential of Deathly Invocation. Gravelords are in the nice position to have an extra spell that all wizards know and that can be cast as many times as you like, so it's easier to make use of extra casts. The ability to just flat heal 3 extra wounds on all your summonables seems pretty good if you could somehow make it reliable.

It's just been nerfed to 1 wizard only.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

11 minutes ago, Liquidsteel said:

It's just been nerfed to 1 wizard only.

It seems I have the best timing, as always

A welcome change, though. I would never have expected another FAQ so soon.

[swarmofseals]

Cogs was great in Gravelords, RIP my cogs list XD

 

[TheArborealWalrus]

The vampire fleet captain on rotting leviathan. Looking good. … I really need to start painting.

Hope you’re having a great weekend. Cheers

Spoiler

Edited September 4, 2021 by TheArborealWalrus

[ArcaneLore74]

Been toying with this tournament list. Think it would be a lot of fun to play (though probably not for your opponent lol).

In terms of strategy:

>Coven Throne as General. The Vyrkos Pack Alpha command trait lets you use it amazing command ability (+1 hit/wound/save until next hero phase) one per turn per turn for free. Use it on the throne itself Turn 1 to get it to a 3+ save and then, once one of the two blobs of 20 GG is in place, transfer buff to them.

>Mannfred can buff the other blob of GG on the other flank with his +1 hit/wound command ability.

>2 big blobs of 40 zombies supported by a necromancer with the arcane tome and overwhelming dread which stacks well as a debuff with fading vigour on Mannfred. The low casting value and 18" range are excellent.

>Geminids to shut down command abilities on units which can't be negated by Hunters of the Heartlands (could sub this for shackles but it might effect your own units)

>The Vyrkos re-roll failed casts on the throne is good to improve the chances of getting Shudder off.

 

 

 

[ArcaneLore74]

Mannfred's Sword of Unholy Power ability unlocks the potential for+1 attack on whichever blob of GG he is buffing and supporting too

[Btimmy]

7 hours ago, ArcaneLore74 said:

Mannfred's Sword of Unholy Power ability unlocks the potential for+1 attack on whichever blob of GG he is buffing and supporting too

Yes but due to the low number of attacks and the way wound allocation works (the opponent can choose to allocate the wounds from the sword last, meaning they can deny the ability from triggering) I wouldn't count on mannfreds +1 attack ability to really occur basically ever. 

[Btimmy]

does riders of ruin work if you dont start within 3 of the enemy? Meaning can you still move over the units specified and deal mortals if you were say 5" away, move over them and back

[swarmofseals]

13 hours ago, Btimmy said:

Yes but due to the low number of attacks and the way wound allocation works (the opponent can choose to allocate the wounds from the sword last, meaning they can deny the ability from triggering) I wouldn't count on mannfreds +1 attack ability to really occur basically ever. 

 

32 minutes ago, Btimmy said:

does riders of ruin work if you dont start within 3 of the enemy? Meaning can you still move over the units specified and deal mortals if you were say 5" away, move over them and back

There are still plenty of 1 and 2 wound characteristic models against which you can get the sword off pretty easily.

Re: Riders of Ruin, no you can't. You can only use Riders of Ruin if you start within 3" of an enemy unit, although you deal damage to any unit you move over not just ones that you were within 3" of when you started the move.

21 hours ago, ArcaneLore74 said:

Been toying with this tournament list. Think it would be a lot of fun to play (though probably not for your opponent lol).

In terms of strategy:

>Coven Throne as General. The Vyrkos Pack Alpha command trait lets you use it amazing command ability (+1 hit/wound/save until next hero phase) one per turn per turn for free. Use it on the throne itself Turn 1 to get it to a 3+ save and then, once one of the two blobs of 20 GG is in place, transfer buff to them.

>Mannfred can buff the other blob of GG on the other flank with his +1 hit/wound command ability.

>2 big blobs of 40 zombies supported by a necromancer with the arcane tome and overwhelming dread which stacks well as a debuff with fading vigour on Mannfred. The low casting value and 18" range are excellent.

>Geminids to shut down command abilities on units which can't be negated by Hunters of the Heartlands (could sub this for shackles but it might effect your own units)

>The Vyrkos re-roll failed casts on the throne is good to improve the chances of getting Shudder off.

It's a decent list although there are a lot of opponents out there that will totally shut down your magic game (Lumineth, Seraphon, and Tzeentch are all very common in the meta). The main problem with your list is that it's quite slow moving and fragile, so expect to have some bad matchups against opponents who can exploit that. You are really counting on the Grave Guard to make contact.

[Liquidsteel]

Regarding Riders of Ruin, if you make them fly, I think you can still do mortals by passing over. As it's a new sentence.

[Nqshou]

What do you guys think about Blood knight spam? Their warscroll seems so juicy.

[Wordy9th]

Some people have had success with it, I think there are a few things to keep in mind with them.

Without the charge their damage isn't super great. Their base size can preclude getting a lot of them in combat, and riders of ruin won't work against more targets than you think.

My experiance with soulblight stuff overall is that things work great with buffs and pretty lackluster without. I really feel the difference when Zombies don't have +1 attack, or Graveguard don't have the +1 to wound. 

When you're giving those units Belladamma's buff, +1 attack, and +1 to hit and wound though, they slap. The same goes for Blood Knights.

Speaking of buff pieces I love the Vampire Lord. It flies around with pinions putting +1 attack on whoever needs it, but ****** those 5 wounds don't last long. A super squishy piece.

[TheArborealWalrus]

I've got my own ideas, but I'd like to get the community's opinion on how to fight a list that's been giving my group a lot of trouble. Unfortunately I don't have a lot of models so changing the list is less of an option for me.

What I'm fighting:

Spoiler

One drop battalion, ignore battleshock

Teclis

2x10 Wardens (spears)

30 Sentinels (bows)

Gotrek

What I've been using:

Spoiler

2,000pts Command battalion, Hunters of the Heartlands battalion, 10 drops

C - Wight King on steed - General, 12" re-roll charge command trait, amulet of destiny

C - Vampire Lord on zombie dragon - AoE mortal wound spell

C - Necromancer - -1 attack spell

Prince Vordrai - Pinions (+6" move spell)

C - 20 zombies

HH - 20 zombies

HH - 20 grave guard

HH - 5 blood knights

2x3 fell bats

 

I also have:

1 mega gargant

20 grave guard

1 Necromancer

The major problem is that Teclis dominates the magic phase, The archers and teleportation prevent me from just hanging back on objectives, and Gotrek + Teclis + unleash hell, kill anything that gets close. I've had some success by killing the spears and playing keep away, but he just teleports, shoots, and finishes whatever off with Teclis. The closest I've gotten it is a single priority roll determining winner. (Which he has won each time thus far. :P) It's just such an uphill fight. Any ideas for tactics? List changes with what I have?

I freely acknowledge that this is more of a gatekeeper list than an unstoppable meta build. I just have a limited set of models to work with and wanted to pick up some tactical ideas. I'm trying to practice for a GT in November. 

Thanks for any brainstorming. I hope you have a good week.

Cheers

[Wordy9th]

This might be a good opportunity to ask anyone with experience what the main things to look out for against Lumineth as Soulblight are.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

34 minutes ago, TheArborealWalrus said:

I've got my own ideas, but I'd like to get the community's opinion on how to fight a list that's been giving my group a lot of trouble. Unfortunately I don't have a lot of models so changing the list is less of an option for me.

What I'm fighting:

  Hide contents

One drop battalion, ignore battleshock

Teclis

2x10 Wardens (spears)

30 Sentinels (bows)

Gotrek

What I've been using:

  Hide contents

2,000pts Command battalion, Hunters of the Heartlands battalion, 10 drops

C - Wight King on steed - General, 12" re-roll charge command trait, amulet of destiny

C - Vampire Lord on zombie dragon - AoE mortal wound spell

C - Necromancer - -1 attack spell

Prince Vordrai - Pinions (+6" move spell)

C - 20 zombies

HH - 20 zombies

HH - 20 grave guard

HH - 5 blood knights

2x3 fell bats

 

I also have:

1 mega gargant

20 grave guard

1 Necromancer

The major problem is that Teclis dominates the magic phase, The archers and teleportation prevent me from just hanging back on objectives, and Gotrek + Teclis + unleash hell, kill anything that gets close. I've had some success by killing the spears and playing keep away, but he just teleports, shoots, and finishes whatever off with Teclis. The closest I've gotten it is a single priority roll determining winner. (Which he has won each time thus far. :P) It's just such an uphill fight. Any ideas for tactics? List changes with what I have?

I freely acknowledge that this is more of a gatekeeper list than an unstoppable meta build. I just have a limited set of models to work with and wanted to pick up some tactical ideas. I'm trying to practice for a GT in November. 

Thanks for any brainstorming. I hope you have a good week.

Cheers

First, some questions:

• What are you using your extra enhancement on? It looks like something in your list should be able to take an extra artefact.
• What lineage are you running? It looks like it might be Vyrkos, but it's hard to tell.

 

After that, I don't really have any definitive solutions for you, but here are a few thoughts on your list:

• I would reconsider the Wight King. It's a cool model, but he does not do much for you right now while absorbing both the command trait and an artefact. That Amulet would do much more on the VLoZD. You could replace him with 20 more zombies, still have your battleline covered and save 15 points in the process. If you are indeed in Vyrkos you could also give the VLoZD one of their excellent command traits (Pack Alpha or Hunter's Snare).
• If the "AoE mortal wounds spell" is Blades of Shyish, I would take literally any other spell from the lore over it. It's an extremely inefficient spell and will mostly perform worse than Arcane Bolt, even taking Locus of Shyish into account. For the VLoZD and Vhordrai, I would use Pinions (possibly even on both of them at once) or the newly FAQ'd Vile Transference.

About the match up:

A point in your favour should be the deployment advantage, given that you are high drops while your opponent is one drop. Your opponent seems weak in the capture game. If you can manage to take out their two units of wardens, they will have a hard time winning on objective points. So either that or trying to take out Teclis would be my focus.

[swarmofseals]

3 hours ago, Nqshou said:

What do you guys think about Blood knight spam? Their warscroll seems so juicy.

I've had a lot of success running anywhere from 2 and 6 units of them

3 hours ago, Wordy9th said:

 riders of ruin won't work against more targets than you think.

I'm not sure what you mean by "won't work." You can always use Riders of Ruin against any target, you just can't ride over targets with mounts or high wounds characteristic. In general I've found that you can only rarely "fly over" a unit and end up on the other side, but you can almost always back off 3 inches and charge again.

[Hamicron]

5 hours ago, TheArborealWalrus said:

I've got my own ideas, but I'd like to get the community's opinion on how to fight a list that's been giving my group a lot of trouble. Unfortunately I don't have a lot of models so changing the list is less of an option for me.

What I'm fighting:

  Reveal hidden contents

One drop battalion, ignore battleshock

Teclis

2x10 Wardens (spears)

30 Sentinels (bows)

Gotrek

What I've been using:

  Hide contents

2,000pts Command battalion, Hunters of the Heartlands battalion, 10 drops

C - Wight King on steed - General, 12" re-roll charge command trait, amulet of destiny

C - Vampire Lord on zombie dragon - AoE mortal wound spell

C - Necromancer - -1 attack spell

Prince Vordrai - Pinions (+6" move spell)

C - 20 zombies

HH - 20 zombies

HH - 20 grave guard

HH - 5 blood knights

2x3 fell bats

 

I also have:

1 mega gargant

20 grave guard

1 Necromancer

The major problem is that Teclis dominates the magic phase, The archers and teleportation prevent me from just hanging back on objectives, and Gotrek + Teclis + unleash hell, kill anything that gets close. I've had some success by killing the spears and playing keep away, but he just teleports, shoots, and finishes whatever off with Teclis. The closest I've gotten it is a single priority roll determining winner. (Which he has won each time thus far. :P) It's just such an uphill fight. Any ideas for tactics? List changes with what I have?

I freely acknowledge that this is more of a gatekeeper list than an unstoppable meta build. I just have a limited set of models to work with and wanted to pick up some tactical ideas. I'm trying to practice for a GT in November. 

Thanks for any brainstorming. I hope you have a good week.

Cheers

So there’s certainly a few bits I’d rearrange. If you have another 20 Grave Guard get them in. It’s a double Dragon list so you want bodies and extra threats besides the Dragons. 

To fit them in I’d cut the Wight King, Necromancer and sadly one unit of Fell Bats. 

Make the Dynasty Kastelai so the Blood Knights make up your 3rd Battleline. 

 

Otherwise play the objectives which you can do much better. Keep an eye on what spells are going off. Save those dispels for stopping Power of Hysh on the archers. You’ve got no chance of stopping Teclis so let him go.
The archers are so so without the PoH on them. 

[Liquidsteel]

Lumineth are and have been the bane of my existence since their release, mainly because I enjoy playing big monsters e.g Ghoul Kings on Terrorgheists in FEC, VLoZDs and Nagash in Soulblight, which they tend to eat for breakfast. 

I'm still working out how to beat them, but my next list attempt will be a one drop. 50/50 chance to take away their choice is great, as the worst thing for me is being out dropped and not knowing the turn order which they are expecting to have.

Lumineth will kill a dragon per turn no problem, and are defensive enough to weather a precision strike.

Sticking with two dragons though, you could deploy aggressively, forcing him to go first and shoot off Vhordrai but leaving VLoZD plus Blood Knights free to cause havoc. You can then push forward and hope for the double.

Or potentially deploy at least 30" away from Teclis whilst taking Pinions and Run and Charge command trait on the VLoZD. 26" movement plus charge. If given first the unleash hell isn't as bad without power of Hysh and you can try to strike hard. If he takes first the VLoZD dies anyway but then you push forward and again hope for a big double.

[TheArborealWalrus]

7 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

 

• What are you using your extra enhancement on? It looks like something in your list should be able to take an extra artefact.
• What lineage are you running? It looks like it might be Vyrkos, but it's hard to tell.

Whoops. The list is kastelai because of the dragon lord focus. I have the brick of the keep (-1 to wound rolls within 6") on the VLoZD. 

 

33 minutes ago, Liquidsteel said:

hope for a big double.

That's kind of where my game plan keeps getting stuck. 3 games against this list and haven't gotten it once. 

2 hours ago, Hamicron said:

Save those dispels for stopping Power of Hysh on the archers

Alas, that's always been the plan. I just can't roll higher than a 7 for spells. Without the re-roll hits spell or PoH, the archers aren't too bad.

The idea behind the wight king is that he's fast enough to run with the goon squad providing the re-roll charges and be ignored by my opponent. It's also a couple of mortal wounds against the inevitable 1+ save monsters, as well as making my grand strategy (batttleline alive) easier. I can try making the VLoZD general, but I feel that just puts a target on his/her back. The vampire spells besides pinions kind of all suck so I just went with the one I remembered at list creation. It has never been used once, so easy swap out. I like the bats, but I could try and use 40 grave guard. Unsupported grave guard have just repeatedly let me down in the past though. I'm a fair man, I'll give it a try.

I suppose I should have spelled out my opponent's game plan. They all blob up and take first turn, daring you to charge in. Teclis in the back, spears on the sides, and with Gotrek in the front. Meanwhile he picks one objective grabber to snipe out per turn until there's an opening. (Whether it's from a suicidal charge or the gap in control that the archers have created) He then teleports (or the double movement spells) the spears onto objectives or to gum up the works. Wherever he expects trouble gives mystic shield, letting him easily get +3 to their save with a 5++. Teclis is no slouch in combat either. He's butchered a unit of 20 grave guard by himself before. The only times I've had success was when I wiped out the spears. Then I pulled ahead for a few turns and then get wiped out by shooting and Teclis zooming in. When I charged the archers (obviously bats eat overwatch) he'll pop +2 their saves and I'll kill 6-16 of them. (hate -1s to hit)Then Gotrek and Teclis move in and spell/shooting/melee them to death. When I went for teclis he pops +3 to save and I'll d0 around 8 damage to him. Then both dragons die again.

Thank you all for your ideas. It's possible that I'll just have to accept that If I run into my friend's list I'll most likely lose. (Probably won't since the lumineth community thinks his list is bad. He's earned this though, we used to crush his Lumineth all the time, then came the dark Gotrek days) I'm not overly afraid of the other lumineth meta list. The fox horde while spooky can be countered with the tactics you all have suggested. They'll help out others if nothing else. Perhaps I should do a batrep from fighting them. 

Anyways, have a good week. Cheers.

[swarmofseals]

16 hours ago, Wordy9th said:

This might be a good opportunity to ask anyone with experience what the main things to look out for against Lumineth as Soulblight are.

 

8 hours ago, Liquidsteel said:

Lumineth are and have been the bane of my existence since their release

 

I've had a ton of success against Lumineth with Soulblight so far, although with the caveat that I've only faced the typical Zaitrec or Syar Teclis + Vanari lists. Usually it's Teclis, 20-40 wardens, 20-40 sentinels and one other hero.

I've won basically all of my games against these types of lists, and most of the games have been very lopsided.

Here are my observations:

• Lumineth's strength is suppressing heroes both through highly targeted mortal wounds and through things like Total Eclipse. The less reliant you are on heroes the better you will be.
• Lumineth's weakness is that they tend to have to castle in order to keep their units buffed effectively, and overall their mobility is limited. Lumineth often struggles with objective play and to some extent with battle tactics. The plans where they have an easier time on objectives they tend to have a harder time on tactics.
• Lumineth can deal very focused and targeted damage well but their overall damage output is very low. This can be exploited by favoring defensively efficient units.

The natural conclusions to draw from these observations is that you should not overly rely on heroes, you should take advantage of opportunities to play the objectives, and you should focus on packing the board with a lot of bodies/wounds. Expensive characters are bad vs. Lumineth, although it's unlikely that they can be avoided completely if you are using an all-comers list as you need at least some heroes for certain battleplans. I've found that Mannfred, the Necromancer, and Radukar are the best heroes. Mannfred doesn't need to get in combat and isn't easy to kill. He will probably die, but at least your opponent will need a turn or two to get the job done. Small Radukar and the Necromancer are both disproportionately difficult to kill due to bodyguard. Big Radukar at least leaves behind some wolves.

Grave Guard are not good against Lumineth due to poor defensive efficiency. Blood Knights are much better, and Zombies are also great. Dire Wolves can be useful, too.

The list that I've tried that dunked on Lumineth the hardest is very simple:

 

Mannfred

Radukar the Beast

6x5 Blood Knights

10 Dire Wolves

2x Battle Regiment

 

They will probably kill Mannfred on turn 1 or 2, but that hardly matters. Just run up and smash. If you get the double turn it's over instantly, if not they may be able to kill some Blood Knights but when they kill a unit or two there are plenty more.

[Liquidsteel]

Yep completely agree with you, as I said I am too attached to big heroes myself and have been trying to make them work. And full zombie/chaff spam is not something I can play. 

Blood Knight spam is what I am working towards, however hobby time and space is now at a premium so its slow going, only have 2 units painted up with a backlog of other models staring at me.