AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion

[J4yzor]

20 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

I've been trying to explore a lot of different Soulblight variations, so far focusing on Nagash and zombie apocalypse lists. Most people seem to be pushing character heavy lists, but I'd like to propose a different direction focusing on maximizing efficiency.

To begin, I'd like to illustrate the efficiency gap between Blood Knights and the Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon. Math ahead:

  Reveal hidden contents

Two units of Blood Knights, charging:

• 28.44 rend 1 damage
• 7.4 rend 0 damage
• 84.38 expected wounds assuming an average incoming rend of .75 with Deathless Minions, 67.5 without
• Cost: 390 points

Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon, charging:

• 8.83 rend 2 (12.38 with Sangsyron)
• 4.66 rend 1
• 37.8 expected wounds assuming an average incoming rend of .75 with Deathless Minions
• Cost: 435 points

Overall damage comparison (BK, Sangsyron, VLoZD base kit)

• vs. - : 35.84/17.04/13.49
• vs. 6+: 34.6/17.04/13.49
• vs. 5+: 28.63/16.26/12.71
• vs 4+: 22.66/13.42/10.47
• vs 3+: 16.69/10.58/8.21
• vs 2+: 10.71/7.74/5.97
• vs 2+ +1: 5.97/4.9/3.72
• vs 2+ +2: 5.97/2.48/2.25

Despite being cheaper, the Blood Knights vastly outperform in every category the minimum damage difference is +60% vs. vanilla VLoZD and +22% vs. Sangsyron. The maximum difference is +166% vs. vanilla and +110% vs. vanilla. Defensively, the Blood Knights have +123% more weighted effective wounds with Deathless Minions and +79% more without.

Of course, the VLoZD does have advantages: it's faster until it takes quite a bit of damage, can heal and perform heroic actions, shoot a little, and is a monster. But that gets counterbalanced some against the Blood Knights being able to "retreat" and charge and sprinkle mortal wounds in the process.

The Blood Knights also scale equal better off of nearly every buff. +1 Damage to rider weapons and +1 Attack all scale the Blood Knights better than the VLoZD. Bonuses to hit and would and exploding 6's are roughly equivalent.

The VLoZD clearly has better activation efficiency, but I'm not sure that this is as much of a benefit in 3.0 as it was in 2.0. I know people are still in the mindset of "hit as hard as possible with one thing, charging with more just gives your opponent the opportunity to swing back," but I think people haven't fully absorbed how the new command abilities change the dynamic. If you charge one enemy unit, your opponent gets to use all-out defense to significantly soften the blow. If you charge multiple enemy units, your opponent has to pick where to use AOD, and the thing they don't pick is going to get hit a lot harder. So now it's a lot more attractive to charge multiple targets, particularly if you can charge with at least one more unit than your opponent has in combat. If you charge 3 into your opponent's 2, your opponent can soften the blow on one thing and then you use AOD on whatever they choose to strike first on, thus allowing you to get two activations against a soft target to your opponent's 1 (and that 1 being with a damaged unit at that). Hitting multiple targets also carries the benefit of pressuring battleshock, which is a real thing in 3.0.

So in the end I see lists running one or more dragons and can't help but wonder if they wouldn't be better off running more and more Blood Knights instead.

So what heroes might a Blood Knights focused list want to run? None of the options are at all competitive with BKs for actual combat efficiency, but how much value do buffs add? Let's explore it (more math!):

  Reveal hidden contents

Here's the % increase in damage output achieved by various buffs along with the absolute rend weighted damage output increase per unit of BKs buffed:

+1 Hit OR Wound: 26.4%, +5.98

+1 Hit AND Wound: 60%, +13.6

+1 Damage to riders: 42%, +9.52

+1 Attack: 33.3%, +7.55

Exploding 6's: 26.4%, +5.98

Units that can buff BK's include: Belladamma, Radukar, Mannfred, Vengorian Lord, Coven Throne, any non unique hero (Rousing Commander, Sword of the Red Seneschals, Unholy Impetus)

Of the non-unique heroes, I don't think it's worth considering the regular Vampire Lord as it's so easy to snipe. The Vengorian Lord, Coven Throne, and VLoZD are worth considering as they can all keep up with Blood Knights relatively well. A Necromancer is also worth considering because it's cheap and might have additional usefulness, but one must keep in mind that keeping in buff range will be MUCH harder.

Lets look at a ton more math on these options. What I'm going to try to do here is calculate the total combat value provided by different options between their innate combat ability and the value of the buffs they provide.

  Reveal hidden contents

NOTE: One unit of charging Blood Knights unbuffed has a weighted offensive value of 22.67 at a cost of 195 points, for a WOR (weighted offensive rating) of .116.

 

• Belladamma is mostly being taken for her casting profile, but her exploding 6's buffs does provide .03 WOR per target.
• Radukar the Wolf alone has a base WOR of .047 (self buffed) and provides an additional .05 WOR per buffed target.
• Radukar the Wolf plus bodyguard has a base WOR of .068 (self buffed) and provides an additional .031 WOR per buffed target
• Radukar the Beast has a base WOR of .084 (self buffed, includes summoned Dire Wolves but does not assume they are buffed) and provides an additional .024 WOR per buffed target
• Mannfred has a base WOR of .07 (self buffed) and provides an additional .036 WOR per buffed target.
• A Vengorian Lord (Clotted Deluge) has a base WOR of .046 (self buffed) and provides an additional .021 WOR per buffed target. Unholy Impetus adds an additional .027 WOR per buffed target. Rousing Commander changes self WOR to .06 (self buffed) and adds an additional .034 WOR per buffed target.
• A Coven Throne has a base WOR of .031 and provides an additional .044 WOR from its buff. Sword of the Red Seneschals adds .019 WOR per target, Unholy Impetus adds .024 WOR per target, and Rousing Commander changes self WOR to .048 and adds .031 WOR per target
• A VLoZD has a base WOR of .048. Sword of the Red Seneschals adds .014 WOR per target, Unholy Impetus adds .017 WOR per target, and Rousing Commander changes self WOR to .053 and .022 WOR per target.
• A Necromancer is mostly being taken for casting, and is unlikely to be able to get Unholy Impetus or Sword of the Red Seneschals to work, but Rousing Commander adds .076 WOR per target.

A few conclusions from this:

Both versions of Radukar are good bets to be offensively "profitable" at least the turn they charge. As long as you're buffing two units of Blood Knights with the command ability (which should be easy given the 18" radius), you're getting more WOR than you would if you had invested the points in more BK alone. Furthermore, these options aren't actually bad on defense either. Radukar the Beast + his wolves has a defensive efficiency of .16 (albeit at the cost of a CP), and Radukar the Wolf with 2 Nightguard has a defensive efficiency of .118. Blood Knights have a defensive efficiency of .207, so you're giving up some defense but less than in comparison to most heroes.

Mannfred is pretty easy to make profitable as well. If he can buff two targets (which isn't trivial but should be doable pretty often) he'll exceed the WOR value of pure BK. He also has the benefit of being a 2 wizard and a monster hero along with superlative mobility. His defensive profile is a bit hard to pin down due to uncertainty around how many woulds his armor will negate. At minimum he's just below half efficiency compared to BK, but at just 3-4 wounds negated he starts pulling even with Radukar the Wolf.

The Vengorian Lord can plausibly break even or exceed on WOR but it's not easy. With Rousing Commander plus either his spell going off or Sword of the Red Seneschals, all hitting two targets he's solidly in the black. But with RC being a once per game thing he's going to have a tough time breaking even most of the time. Defensively he's OK, particularly in melee, and he has the benefit of being a monster hero.

The Coven Throne lags pretty far behind except when using Rousing Commander, which when combined with the command ability gives us an easy total WOR of  .154 with something getting +1 save in addition. But again, that's once a game. It's not going to be easy to make Sword of the Red Seneschals work here at all, so Fragment of the Keep is a more likely artefact choice. I could see this as an option that is more oriented toward providing defense with a splash of offense. That +1 save is worth a bit under half a unit of Blood Knights in defensive efficiency, assuming the enemy actually attacks the buffed unit.

The VLoZD does just a hair better than breaking even with both Rousing Commander and SoRS buffing two targets, so I don't think this one is going to get there based on efficiency, especially given that it is far behind on defensive efficiency.

If you can actually manage to buff two things with Rousing Commander on a Necromancer you're getting well ahead that turn, but it's going to have a hard time using an artefact effectively except for possibly the Grave-sand Shard.

Belladamma isn't going to get there on offense, so if you take her you are doing it for her magic prowess. That said, I'm not really sold on Belladamma in this kind of list. She's very helpful against shooting, but I don't think shooting armies are going to be particularly problematic for a list that is just spamming bodies that are efficient on both offense and defense and are reasonably fast. Furthermore, to make her reliable as a caster requires significant extra investment.

 

Overall, I think the two heroes that are clearly at the top of the pile are Mannfred and Radukar (either version). The Vengorian Lord and Coven Throne could both work but are pretty marginal and clearly behind the two unique heroes. The VLoZD is substantially worse, and I don't think Beladamma makes much sense for the reasons mentioned above. The Necromancer is a bit of a wild card.

So that leads me to the question: could it really be optimal to just forego a command trait and artefact? I really think it might, depending on the list. Mannfred and Radukar both are just better than what the trait and artefact provide on any hero for this kind of list, so it only makes sense to dip to a non-unique hero if you're already taking Mannfred and Radukar. I suppose a hero package of Mannfred, Radukar the Wolf and a Vengorian Lord (810 points or 905 if you take nightguard) could make some sense, but that's really more points than I'd want to be spending on heroes. Mannfred and Radukar the Beast is a more palatable 695, or wolf at 530/625 depending on nightguard.

 

As far as subfactions go, I think it's pretty clearly between Kastelai and Legion of Night. I get that Vyrkos can build a very strong VLoZD with Hunter's Snare and either amulet or Sangsyron, but I wonder if that is a trap.

Kastelai has the benefits of an easier grand strategy, better performance on battleplans that care about battleline units for scoring, and the uncertain value of Might of the Crimson Keep. I think figuring out how useful that last one is will take a lot of test games.

Legion of Night has the benefits of redundant generals and an easier path to actually resolving spells through a Necromancer carrying Morbheg's Claw. But you'll need three battleline units that aren't Blood Knights (which isn't necessarily a bad thing, as having some blocks of zombies could be useful for counterbalancing the otherwise low model count for objectives.

 

Here's a few lists:

 

Basic Kastelai

  Hide contents

Mannfred

Radukar the Beast

6x5 Blood Knights

1x10 Dire Wolves

Probably Battle Regiment + Hunters of the Heartlands or 2 Battle Regiment

52 models, 384.53 weighted effective wounds

Kastelai with bats + zombies

  Hide contents

Mannfred

Radukar the Beast

5x5 Blood Knights

1x3 Fell Bats

1x40 Zombies

Again probably Battle Regiment + Hunters of the Heartlands or 2 Battle Regiment

80 models, 371.1 weighted effective wounds

Go Wide

  Hide contents

Mannfred

Radukar the Wolf

Necromancer

4x5 Blood Knights

2x40 Deadwalker Zombies (or 1x40, 2x20)

1x2 Kosargi Night Guard

Can be Legion of Night or Kastelai. Lots of battalion possibilities, but Battle Regiment + Hunters or Battle Regiment + Vanguard or double Battle Regiment probably best.

105 models, 335.1 weighted effective wounds

The first list is just crazy raw efficiency. The damage potential is very high and the effective wound count is insane, but the body count is relatively low.

The second list is like the first list but compromises effective wounds slightly for more bodies.

The third list has significantly fewer effective wounds but a ton more bodies and it can also potentially be Legion of Night to leverage Mannfred and a Necromancer into legitimate casting threats with Morbheg's claw. The gain in defensive efficiency from Mystic Shield, Overwhelming Dread and/or Fading Vigor could easily offset the loss of effective wounds. Mannfred, Radukar and the Necromancer all are crazy good at scaling the zombies up if the opponent focuses too hard on the Blood Knights.

Perhaps more later.

Hey thank you for sharing this!

What about Vhargheist in Kastelei? I realy like the deep strike ability and that they get the Kastelei buff.

[mmimzie]

15 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

Agree re: the monster thing, although I don't think this does nearly enough to close the gap.

 

11 hours ago, Kaizennus said:

1) they are super vulnerable to mortals

 

8 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

The mortal wound thing is a problem

I think this is why there is usefulness in the big heavy models such as VLoZD, Manfred, etc. The blood knights when hit with ranged attacks and mortals  don't have a way to recover when they drop models, while the big monster heros can heal themselves up in different ways as long as they can cling onto a few wounds. I'd also go so far as to say i'd lean more in favor of a consistent VLoZD or vengorion lord with amulet and a good command ability like rousing command or unholy impetus vs trying to make the model more killy. 

This also make me alittle uncomfortable with Manfred and some of the other special characters that I think are very vulnerable to strong 1 phase armies like tzneetch and KO that can take out heros like him in a turn. Where as something like the amulet can go a long way on a VLoZD  Not saying any of these are suddenly trash, but just it's good to know each model's weakness when building out a list. 

 

 

4 hours ago, Liquidsteel said:

I've usually had around 80-120 bodies on the board, depending on the list.

Are you using movement trays as well. I saw you speak of magnets?? I also think this why the game really badly needs to move back to a rank style combat system or a 40k style attack system with a rank component. One that is quick and balanceable. Clumping modeling really close up together is a recipe for damaged models and wasted time. 

But having played skaven, horde armies can take a while, but as of current instead of taking effectiency out of your list, just be less efficient with your pile in where its not vital. Just shove the model in the general area and keep them on trays unless. When I mathed out a few skaven games it ended up being more effective than a lower model count army, mainly because i could go big where it mattered. 

All of the comments taken into consideration i think i'd go with a list like this inspired a bit by @Kaizennus 

It focuses on 120 deadwalkers (the list swaps out for skeletons easily, and it could go half and half as per preference). I went dead walkers because the list allows for a 2nd necromancer which is a key buff peace in my mind. Double battle reginment. Most importantly 2.5 Mortis engines! 

I think this sort of list would give the blood knight list a very hard time. 
 

Spoiler

Lineage: Vyrkos Dynasty
 Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery
LEADERS

Bloodseeker Palanquin (290) Battle regiment 1
General - Command Trait: Pack Alpha
 Artefact: Amulet of Destiny
Lore of the Deathmages:  Amaranthine Orb

Necromancer (125) Battle regiment 1
Lore of the Deathmages: Overwhelming Dread

Vampire Lord (140) Battle regiment 2

Necromancer (125) Battle regiment 2
 Lore of the Deathmages: Fading Vigour

UNITS
40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230) Battle regiment 1

40 x Deadwalker Zombies (345) Battle regiment 1

40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230) Battle regiment 2

10 x Dire Wolves (135) Battle regiment 2

1 x Corpse Cart with Unholy Lodestone(80) Battle regiment 1

BEHEMOTHS
Mortis Engine (200) Battle regiment 1
Mortis Engine (200) Battle regiment 2

A necromancer can be dropped for a wight king on foot and a dead walker unit can become 30 skeletons.  Personally i don't like too many more command abilities.

Zombies i like because they in sort of can retreat and recharge, and get a little better when they do so because they can be outside of 3 before they do thier attacks. 

Vykros makes dance more reliable and with +2 to cast you should get it off with a decently high cast. 

potentially throwing out 5d3 mortal wounds to multiple units seems very strong, and i've seen a number of little here list that would shutter at the thought. Having used lightning vortex, and played a multiple mortis engine list back during generals hand book 1. It can be a huge tide turner and in the long whole win games. I even think the mortis engine pose a huge threat to armies like KO and armies now in AoS 3.0 where we have more MSU. Also the threat of unless hell from a Mortis engine i think is no joke. 

edit: There is a good argument for hunters in the heartland to protect the zombies.  IF that's the case i'd also take warlord, line breaker, and heartland 

Edited August 2, 2021 by mmimzie

[Warbossironteef]

22 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

I've been trying to explore a lot of different Soulblight variations, so far focusing on Nagash and zombie apocalypse lists. Most people seem to be pushing character heavy lists, but I'd like to propose a different direction focusing on maximizing efficiency.

To begin, I'd like to illustrate the efficiency gap between Blood Knights and the Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon. Math ahead:

  Reveal hidden contents

Two units of Blood Knights, charging:

• 28.44 rend 1 damage
• 7.4 rend 0 damage
• 84.38 expected wounds assuming an average incoming rend of .75 with Deathless Minions, 67.5 without
• Cost: 390 points

Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon, charging:

• 8.83 rend 2 (12.38 with Sangsyron)
• 4.66 rend 1
• 37.8 expected wounds assuming an average incoming rend of .75 with Deathless Minions
• Cost: 435 points

Overall damage comparison (BK, Sangsyron, VLoZD base kit)

• vs. - : 35.84/17.04/13.49
• vs. 6+: 34.6/17.04/13.49
• vs. 5+: 28.63/16.26/12.71
• vs 4+: 22.66/13.42/10.47
• vs 3+: 16.69/10.58/8.21
• vs 2+: 10.71/7.74/5.97
• vs 2+ +1: 5.97/4.9/3.72
• vs 2+ +2: 5.97/2.48/2.25

Despite being cheaper, the Blood Knights vastly outperform in every category the minimum damage difference is +60% vs. vanilla VLoZD and +22% vs. Sangsyron. The maximum difference is +166% vs. vanilla and +110% vs. vanilla. Defensively, the Blood Knights have +123% more weighted effective wounds with Deathless Minions and +79% more without.

Of course, the VLoZD does have advantages: it's faster until it takes quite a bit of damage, can heal and perform heroic actions, shoot a little, and is a monster. But that gets counterbalanced some against the Blood Knights being able to "retreat" and charge and sprinkle mortal wounds in the process.

The Blood Knights also scale equal better off of nearly every buff. +1 Damage to rider weapons and +1 Attack all scale the Blood Knights better than the VLoZD. Bonuses to hit and would and exploding 6's are roughly equivalent.

The VLoZD clearly has better activation efficiency, but I'm not sure that this is as much of a benefit in 3.0 as it was in 2.0. I know people are still in the mindset of "hit as hard as possible with one thing, charging with more just gives your opponent the opportunity to swing back," but I think people haven't fully absorbed how the new command abilities change the dynamic. If you charge one enemy unit, your opponent gets to use all-out defense to significantly soften the blow. If you charge multiple enemy units, your opponent has to pick where to use AOD, and the thing they don't pick is going to get hit a lot harder. So now it's a lot more attractive to charge multiple targets, particularly if you can charge with at least one more unit than your opponent has in combat. If you charge 3 into your opponent's 2, your opponent can soften the blow on one thing and then you use AOD on whatever they choose to strike first on, thus allowing you to get two activations against a soft target to your opponent's 1 (and that 1 being with a damaged unit at that). Hitting multiple targets also carries the benefit of pressuring battleshock, which is a real thing in 3.0.

So in the end I see lists running one or more dragons and can't help but wonder if they wouldn't be better off running more and more Blood Knights instead.

So what heroes might a Blood Knights focused list want to run? None of the options are at all competitive with BKs for actual combat efficiency, but how much value do buffs add? Let's explore it (more math!):

  Reveal hidden contents

Here's the % increase in damage output achieved by various buffs along with the absolute rend weighted damage output increase per unit of BKs buffed:

+1 Hit OR Wound: 26.4%, +5.98

+1 Hit AND Wound: 60%, +13.6

+1 Damage to riders: 42%, +9.52

+1 Attack: 33.3%, +7.55

Exploding 6's: 26.4%, +5.98

Units that can buff BK's include: Belladamma, Radukar, Mannfred, Vengorian Lord, Coven Throne, any non unique hero (Rousing Commander, Sword of the Red Seneschals, Unholy Impetus)

Of the non-unique heroes, I don't think it's worth considering the regular Vampire Lord as it's so easy to snipe. The Vengorian Lord, Coven Throne, and VLoZD are worth considering as they can all keep up with Blood Knights relatively well. A Necromancer is also worth considering because it's cheap and might have additional usefulness, but one must keep in mind that keeping in buff range will be MUCH harder.

Lets look at a ton more math on these options. What I'm going to try to do here is calculate the total combat value provided by different options between their innate combat ability and the value of the buffs they provide.

  Reveal hidden contents

NOTE: One unit of charging Blood Knights unbuffed has a weighted offensive value of 22.67 at a cost of 195 points, for a WOR (weighted offensive rating) of .116.

 

• Belladamma is mostly being taken for her casting profile, but her exploding 6's buffs does provide .03 WOR per target.
• Radukar the Wolf alone has a base WOR of .047 (self buffed) and provides an additional .05 WOR per buffed target.
• Radukar the Wolf plus bodyguard has a base WOR of .068 (self buffed) and provides an additional .031 WOR per buffed target
• Radukar the Beast has a base WOR of .084 (self buffed, includes summoned Dire Wolves but does not assume they are buffed) and provides an additional .024 WOR per buffed target
• Mannfred has a base WOR of .07 (self buffed) and provides an additional .036 WOR per buffed target.
• A Vengorian Lord (Clotted Deluge) has a base WOR of .046 (self buffed) and provides an additional .021 WOR per buffed target. Unholy Impetus adds an additional .027 WOR per buffed target. Rousing Commander changes self WOR to .06 (self buffed) and adds an additional .034 WOR per buffed target.
• A Coven Throne has a base WOR of .031 and provides an additional .044 WOR from its buff. Sword of the Red Seneschals adds .019 WOR per target, Unholy Impetus adds .024 WOR per target, and Rousing Commander changes self WOR to .048 and adds .031 WOR per target
• A VLoZD has a base WOR of .048. Sword of the Red Seneschals adds .014 WOR per target, Unholy Impetus adds .017 WOR per target, and Rousing Commander changes self WOR to .053 and .022 WOR per target.
• A Necromancer is mostly being taken for casting, and is unlikely to be able to get Unholy Impetus or Sword of the Red Seneschals to work, but Rousing Commander adds .076 WOR per target.

A few conclusions from this:

Both versions of Radukar are good bets to be offensively "profitable" at least the turn they charge. As long as you're buffing two units of Blood Knights with the command ability (which should be easy given the 18" radius), you're getting more WOR than you would if you had invested the points in more BK alone. Furthermore, these options aren't actually bad on defense either. Radukar the Beast + his wolves has a defensive efficiency of .16 (albeit at the cost of a CP), and Radukar the Wolf with 2 Nightguard has a defensive efficiency of .118. Blood Knights have a defensive efficiency of .207, so you're giving up some defense but less than in comparison to most heroes.

Mannfred is pretty easy to make profitable as well. If he can buff two targets (which isn't trivial but should be doable pretty often) he'll exceed the WOR value of pure BK. He also has the benefit of being a 2 wizard and a monster hero along with superlative mobility. His defensive profile is a bit hard to pin down due to uncertainty around how many woulds his armor will negate. At minimum he's just below half efficiency compared to BK, but at just 3-4 wounds negated he starts pulling even with Radukar the Wolf.

The Vengorian Lord can plausibly break even or exceed on WOR but it's not easy. With Rousing Commander plus either his spell going off or Sword of the Red Seneschals, all hitting two targets he's solidly in the black. But with RC being a once per game thing he's going to have a tough time breaking even most of the time. Defensively he's OK, particularly in melee, and he has the benefit of being a monster hero.

The Coven Throne lags pretty far behind except when using Rousing Commander, which when combined with the command ability gives us an easy total WOR of  .154 with something getting +1 save in addition. But again, that's once a game. It's not going to be easy to make Sword of the Red Seneschals work here at all, so Fragment of the Keep is a more likely artefact choice. I could see this as an option that is more oriented toward providing defense with a splash of offense. That +1 save is worth a bit under half a unit of Blood Knights in defensive efficiency, assuming the enemy actually attacks the buffed unit.

The VLoZD does just a hair better than breaking even with both Rousing Commander and SoRS buffing two targets, so I don't think this one is going to get there based on efficiency, especially given that it is far behind on defensive efficiency.

If you can actually manage to buff two things with Rousing Commander on a Necromancer you're getting well ahead that turn, but it's going to have a hard time using an artefact effectively except for possibly the Grave-sand Shard.

Belladamma isn't going to get there on offense, so if you take her you are doing it for her magic prowess. That said, I'm not really sold on Belladamma in this kind of list. She's very helpful against shooting, but I don't think shooting armies are going to be particularly problematic for a list that is just spamming bodies that are efficient on both offense and defense and are reasonably fast. Furthermore, to make her reliable as a caster requires significant extra investment.

 

Overall, I think the two heroes that are clearly at the top of the pile are Mannfred and Radukar (either version). The Vengorian Lord and Coven Throne could both work but are pretty marginal and clearly behind the two unique heroes. The VLoZD is substantially worse, and I don't think Beladamma makes much sense for the reasons mentioned above. The Necromancer is a bit of a wild card.

So that leads me to the question: could it really be optimal to just forego a command trait and artefact? I really think it might, depending on the list. Mannfred and Radukar both are just better than what the trait and artefact provide on any hero for this kind of list, so it only makes sense to dip to a non-unique hero if you're already taking Mannfred and Radukar. I suppose a hero package of Mannfred, Radukar the Wolf and a Vengorian Lord (810 points or 905 if you take nightguard) could make some sense, but that's really more points than I'd want to be spending on heroes. Mannfred and Radukar the Beast is a more palatable 695, or wolf at 530/625 depending on nightguard.

 

As far as subfactions go, I think it's pretty clearly between Kastelai and Legion of Night. I get that Vyrkos can build a very strong VLoZD with Hunter's Snare and either amulet or Sangsyron, but I wonder if that is a trap.

Kastelai has the benefits of an easier grand strategy, better performance on battleplans that care about battleline units for scoring, and the uncertain value of Might of the Crimson Keep. I think figuring out how useful that last one is will take a lot of test games.

Legion of Night has the benefits of redundant generals and an easier path to actually resolving spells through a Necromancer carrying Morbheg's Claw. But you'll need three battleline units that aren't Blood Knights (which isn't necessarily a bad thing, as having some blocks of zombies could be useful for counterbalancing the otherwise low model count for objectives.

 

Here's a few lists:

 

Basic Kastelai

  Reveal hidden contents

Mannfred

Radukar the Beast

6x5 Blood Knights

1x10 Dire Wolves

Probably Battle Regiment + Hunters of the Heartlands or 2 Battle Regiment

52 models, 384.53 weighted effective wounds

Kastelai with bats + zombies

  Reveal hidden contents

Mannfred

Radukar the Beast

5x5 Blood Knights

1x3 Fell Bats

1x40 Zombies

Again probably Battle Regiment + Hunters of the Heartlands or 2 Battle Regiment

80 models, 371.1 weighted effective wounds

Go Wide

  Reveal hidden contents

Mannfred

Radukar the Wolf

Necromancer

4x5 Blood Knights

2x40 Deadwalker Zombies (or 1x40, 2x20)

1x2 Kosargi Night Guard

Can be Legion of Night or Kastelai. Lots of battalion possibilities, but Battle Regiment + Hunters or Battle Regiment + Vanguard or double Battle Regiment probably best.

105 models, 335.1 weighted effective wounds

The first list is just crazy raw efficiency. The damage potential is very high and the effective wound count is insane, but the body count is relatively low.

The second list is like the first list but compromises effective wounds slightly for more bodies.

The third list has significantly fewer effective wounds but a ton more bodies and it can also potentially be Legion of Night to leverage Mannfred and a Necromancer into legitimate casting threats with Morbheg's claw. The gain in defensive efficiency from Mystic Shield, Overwhelming Dread and/or Fading Vigor could easily offset the loss of effective wounds. Mannfred, Radukar and the Necromancer all are crazy good at scaling the zombies up if the opponent focuses too hard on the Blood Knights.

Perhaps more later.

Thanks for the nice write up. I'm in some what of the same camp. All my lists seem to have 2 versions, VLOZD and then the same list but with 2 units of BKs. I was late to the new book so Im still waiting to buy actually BK models.

One other thing with our book is that we don't have a lot of good, unnamed hero options to be our general. VLOZD has the option of getting to a 5++ with Amulet and can be a buffing or utility piece with certain Command Traits. You can get some mileage out of some of the Command Traits on Necro but I do think Amulet on VLOZD is quite good.

I think 10x BKs might be the better option in a lot of situations but I'm also finding that in Legion of Night I can get Pinions off pretty reliably (+2 to cast) and having a 20 inch flying anvil is pretty good with Zombies. Allows you to swamp opponents. If he's your general it also lets you get in range for CA's on your Zombies, which can be important. 

I do think VLOZD is perhaps outclassed in some ways by 10xBKs but he does fill a role and is a good piece. I'm trying out the Legion of Night CT that allows him to add attacks to Soulblight Units if he kills a model. It's only 12 inches though... wish it was 18.

[Liquidsteel]

@mmimzie Yeah I have the minimagtrays and all my units are magnetised in my magnarack, I'm a bit magnet mad.

You are definitely correct in being less efficient in pile in, for stuff like skellies and zombies missing 3-4 models worth of attacks might not be the end of the world, but for stuff like Grave Guard every single model counts.

The trays can be quite fiddly when it comes to removing casualties, can see Skellies being very annoying taking them off and back on multiple times a round, but for ease of speeding up movement and initial combat maybe I'll start using them again.

 

8 minutes ago, Warbossironteef said:

having a 20 inch flying 

I played a 1500 point game vs a beginner (fangs of sotek seraphon with 60 skinks, he's going in deep) on a battleplan that started you 22" apart. I simply dropped my VLoZD to make the list fit.

I had choice and didn't want to go second turn 1 because he would just shoot off my heroes, however with just Radukar, Blood Knights and Dire Wolves I had no way to get in to combat with him apart from Belladamas Lyncancurse through a portal. Even giving wolves the pile in from 6" from bella and auto run 6 was too far out to engage, so those extra few inches of movement really count. I think a fast unit is key, unless you're going sit back and soak style. I did miss his threat range.

Edited August 2, 2021 by Liquidsteel

[mmimzie]

3 minutes ago, Warbossironteef said:

Legion of Night CT

The thing i don't love about this is that it works so poorly for activations. You gotta go with the VLoZD first  to get full use out of the buff  which means your blood knight will need to be cagey on who the engage and how to not lose a few knight before you fight.  Another quill in the VLoZD's favor in that he can fight at full strength all game in the current edition. 

 I wonder if it wouldn't be better to have a side model with the command trait that can tea up the buff. One where you can soft targets and they can be in a more central location to your knights and VLoZD. Also generally 10 models blood knights will struggle to hit the same target 1 VLoZD will.  Now we are alittle moving away from the hit em hard strats, but we do also want to kill what we hit. Take multiple turns to clear 10-20 models with BKs is not ideal.

 

@Liquidsteel It's okay my skaven is all pretty mag nuts too with like 200 clan rats?? all on magnetic movement trays. 

You are likely right with grave guard, which is probably why i always stick with skeletons, zombies, and clan rats where i can play with the horde models like a blob, and count models loosely where i can ignore the fringe attacks. 

[Warbossironteef]

33 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

The thing i don't love about this is that it works so poorly for activations. You gotta go with the VLoZD first  to get full use out of the buff  which means your blood knight will need to be cagey on who the engage and how to not lose a few knight before you fight.  Another quill in the VLoZD's favor in that he can fight at full strength all game in the current edition. 

 I wonder if it wouldn't be better to have a side model with the command trait that can tea up the buff. One where you can soft targets and they can be in a more central location to your knights and VLoZD. Also generally 10 models blood knights will struggle to hit the same target 1 VLoZD will.  Now we are alittle moving away from the hit em hard strats, but we do also want to kill what we hit. Take multiple turns to clear 10-20 models with BKs is not ideal.

 

@Liquidsteel It's okay my skaven is all pretty mag nuts too with like 200 clan rats?? all on magnetic movement trays. 

You are likely right with grave guard, which is probably why i always stick with skeletons, zombies, and clan rats where i can play with the horde models like a blob, and count models loosely where i can ignore the fringe attacks. 

Yeah it might not be the best but Im trying to use it to get +1 attacks on my zombies not BKs. My goal is to keep Zombies outside of 3inches so I can go first with either Mann or VLOZD and get them the +1 attacks. It's a little tricky though because of the 12 inches. If it was 18 inches it would be really good. It is cool that the CT isn't "summonable." I actually had it buff Mann and +1 attacks on all his profiles is not bad at all.

[Raptor_Jesues]

3 hours ago, J4yzor said:

Hey thank you for sharing this!

What about Vhargheist in Kastelei? I realy like the deep strike ability and that they get the Kastelei buff.

vargheists would be cool but they are very squishy for their cost

[Tizianolol]

Guys I have problems with locus of shysh rule. If my necromancer cast overwhelming dread on a unit with 9+ , i cant resolve effect again because that unit cant be debuffed more then 1, can I chose another unit to target? Thx a lot

[Eldarain]

@Tizianolol You can apply it twice to the same target (if you want to insure they stay at even/-1 in case they apply All out attack/unique ability) or apply it to another unit in range.

Edited August 2, 2021 by Eldarain

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

8 hours ago, Tizianolol said:

Guys I have problems with locus of shysh rule. If my necromancer cast overwhelming dread on a unit with 9+ , i cant resolve effect again because that unit cant be debuffed more then 1, can I chose another unit to target? Thx a lot

You can choose a different target. Target selection happens after the spell resolves.

[Tizianolol]

Seems very good, doble spectral grasp is amazing!!:)

[RuneBrush]

19 hours ago, Liquidsteel said:

The trays can be quite fiddly when it comes to removing casualties, can see Skellies being very annoying taking them off and back on multiple times a round, but for ease of speeding up movement and initial combat maybe I'll start using them again.

Skeletons can indeed be a bit of a pain in the bum.  In the past I've used them to shift the unit across the board and charge.  Once I get to the pile in phase I'll start taking them off the movement tray as I can get them in more densely and it makes casualties a lot easier to remove.

[Warbossironteef]

Not sure if everyone saw this but SBGL took 3rd at a 36 person tournament. The field looked like it was filled with competitive lists. Stephen Mitchell went 4-0-1. Congrats to him!! He took a pretty standard Vyrkos list:

 

[J4yzor]

5 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

You can choose a different target. Target selection happens after the spell resolves.

I don't think it works like that because only the effect happens twice not the cast. 🤷‍♂️

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

Just now, J4yzor said:

I don't think it works like that because only the effect happens twice not the cast. 🤷‍♂️

It does, though.

Take a look at the core rules about spell casting:

Quote

19.1 CASTING SPELLS
In your hero phase, you can attempt to cast spells with friendly
Wizards. You cannot attempt to cast the same spell more than once in
the same hero phase, even with a different Wizard. In order to attempt
to cast a spell, pick a friendly Wizard, say which of the spells that they
know will be attempted, and then make a casting roll by rolling 2D6. If
the casting roll is equal to or greater than the casting value of the spell,
the spell is successfully cast.

The language about casting spells includes a bunch of limitation, but notably not that you need to name a target or have one in range or anything of that sort.

Now look at a spell, for example Lycancurse from Belladamma's warscroll.

Quote

Lycancurse has a casting value of 7.

If successfully cast, pick 1 enemy unit within 18" of the caster that is visible to them. That unit suffers D3 mortal wounds.

Notice how the effect, which happens after you successfully resolve the spell, is the bit that includes the range. The mechanics are clear: First you resolve the spell. Once you do so, you get to pick a unit and apply the effect.

Locus of Shyish allows you to resolve successful spells twice after rolling a 9+. The effect you get from resolving contains target selection. So you get to select two targets.

[J4yzor]

16 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

It does, though.

Take a look at the core rules about spell casting:

The language about casting spells includes a bunch of limitation, but notably not that you need to name a target or have one in range or anything of that sort.

Now look at a spell, for example Lycancurse from Belladamma's warscroll.

Notice how the effect, which happens after you successfully resolve the spell, is the bit that includes the range. The mechanics are clear: First you resolve the spell. Once you do so, you get to pick a unit and apply the effect.

Locus of Shyish allows you to resolve successful spells twice after rolling a 9+. The effect you get from resolving contains target selection. So you get to select two targets.

I am still not convinced because you resolve the effect twice not the spell and targeting is part of the spell not the effect. Imho The effect of it is that the target has -1 to hit. Otherwise i don't get all the discussions about the "can only benefit once" spells in the vampire lore.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

20 hours ago, J4yzor said:

I am still not convinced because you resolve the effect twice not the spell and targeting is part of the spell not the effect. Imho The effect of it is that the target has -1 to hit. Otherwise i don't get all the discussions about the "can only benefit once" spells in the vampire lore.

You are making it more difficult than it is. The rules don't distinguish between the effect of a spell and targeting anywhere. If you think that there is a difference, you should be able to point to a rule to this effect. But you won't find it in the core rules, FAQs or battletome.

All the spells in the Gravelords tome are written in a way that makes it clear that targeting happens as part of resolution. It's always "This spell has a casting value of x. If successfully cast, pick a target...". So you need to first successfully cast the spell, then pick a target. And surely what happens after you cast the spell is resolving it.

Another instance where this comes up is in Tzeentch, where you get summoning points for casting spells. Tzeentch players will frequently cast spells even when there is no target even in range, just for the points. This would not be possible if target selection was part of the preconditions of casting a spell rather than resolution.

As for all the instances of "a unit cannot benefit from this spell more than once per turn", I don't know why they don't make sense to you. They seem fairly functional to me, preventing you from stacking certain spells on the same unit on a double resolve. That makes more sense to me if you can choose affect different units with a double resolved spell, if anything.

 

Edited August 4, 2021 by Neil Arthur Hotep

[J4yzor]

18 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

You are making it more difficult than it is. The rules don't distinguish between the effect of a spell and targeting anywhere. If you think that it is, you should be able to point to a rule to this effect. But you won't find it in the core rules, FAQs or battletome.

All the spells in the Gravelords tome are written in a way that makes it clear that targeting happens as part of resolution. It's always "This spell has a casting value of x. If successfully cast, pick a target...". So you need to first successfully cast the spell, then pick a target. And surely what happens after you cast the spell is resolving it.

Another instance where this comes up is in Tzeentch, where you get summoning points for casting spells. Tzeentch players will frequently cast spells even when there is no target even in range, just for the points. This would not be possible if target selection was part of the preconditions of casting a spell rather than resolution.

As for all the instances of "a unit cannot benefit from this spell more than once per turn", I don't know why they don't make sense to you. They seem fairly functional to me, preventing you from stacking certain spells on the same unit on a double resolve. That makes more sense to me if you can choose affect different units with a double resolved spell, if anything.

 

Ok then i will play it like that next time.

[mmimzie]

Note as I understand all spell are cast before picking targets.  For instance tzneetch armies use this to cast all thier spells for summoning points at the top of turn 1. Despite not being in range

 

It is wise to not tell your opponent your spell targets so they will always think the worst when considering unbinding it. 

Edited August 3, 2021 by mmimzie

[HanShot First]

Anyone besides me taking the new drake Calvary and blood knights to make a pretty epic cavalry conversion?

[Eldarain]

They look too big for that. But custom Mannfred/Neferata maybe?

[Warbossironteef]

Just playing around with Legion of Night, but you can do some fun things and sort of build your own Nagash inside the army. The lore of the Deathmages has some incredible defensive spells. This list can get it's casters to +3 to cast. It's got tons of board control but would struggle to kill tough units. That said, it would be super grindy and hard to kill the 10xBKs when throwing around all these debuffs. I feel like this list would be hard to play in person, especially in time crunch of tournament, but it has some serious casting power to it. 

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Lineage: Legion of Night

LEADERS
Mannfred von Carstein, Mortarch of Night (380) in Battle Regiment
- Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine Pinions
- Lore of the Deathmages: Fading Vigour
Necromancer (125) in Command Entourage
- General
- Command Trait: Master of Magic
- Lore of the Deathmages: Overwhelming Dread
- Lore of the Deathmages: Decrepify
Necromancer (125) in Command Entourage
- Artefact: Morbheg's Claw
- Lore of the Deathmages: Spectral Grasp
- Lore of the Deathmages: Prison of Grief
Gorslav the Gravekeeper (75) in Command Entourage
UNITS
1 x Corpse Cart with Unholy Lodestone (80) in Battle Regiment
5 x Blood Knights (195) in Battle Regiment
5 x Blood Knights (195) in Battle Regiment
40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230) in Battle Regiment
40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230) in Battle Regiment
40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230) in Battle Regiment
ENDLESS SPELLS & INVOCATIONS
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Chronomantic Cogs (45)
ADDITIONAL ENHANCEMENTS
Spell
TOTAL: 1980/2000 WOUNDS: 185

[mmimzie]

7 hours ago, Warbossironteef said:

but would struggle to kill tough units.

I think zombies can (and honestly always could) kill almost anything save for maybe archaeon just because he's to quick to pin down.  Dance+2 attack (pick your favor sources: vampire lord, blood seek palaquiin, big generic with impetus,  Radukar, and maybe some more??) that's 120 attacks, on 6's doing mortal wounds getting you about 20 mortal wounds.  Now you could get more attack bonuses and make it even more stupid, but you start to cut into zombies and list effectiveness. 

 

The real benefit and also downside (with 3.0) is being able to get to them to pile in 6" letting them protect themselves from thier weakness which has been  getting activated on first. It also make them rather speedy getting to run and fight potentially in the same turn, at a 19" threat range you can garentee. Downside is redeploy can mess this up quite baddly. 

[Dracan]

I am finally getting around to trying out my "new" Legions of Nagash army AKA Soulblight Gravelords for the first time in 3rd edition.

I was thinking of the following list, mostly because I like the idea of two lord level dragons and some blood knights running amok. Might not be ideal for the objective game, but with the speed and resilience available it might still work out.

Any glaring shortcoming with the current SBGL meta? Any criticisms or comments will be appreciated.

 

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Lineage: Kastelai Dynasty
- Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery
- Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (435) in Warlord
- General
- Deathlance
- Command Trait: Swift and Deadly
- Artefact: Sword of the Red Seneschals
- Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine Pinions
Prince Vhordrai (455) in Battle Regiment
- Lore of the Vampires: Amaranthine Orb
Vengorian Lord (280)
- Artefact: Fragment of the Keep
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
Necromancer (125) in Warlord
- Lore of the Deathmages: Decrepify
Gorslav the Gravekeeper (75) in Warlord

Battleline
5 x Blood Knights (195) in Warlord
5 x Blood Knights (195) in Battle Regiment
40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230) in Battle Regiment
- Reinforced x 1

Core Battalions
Warlord
Battle Regiment

Additional Enhancements
Artefact

Total: 1990 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 120

Edited August 4, 2021 by Dracan

[Replicator]

Can unit make charge after use Disciplined Advance from Watch Captain Halgrim?

"You can use this command ability at the start of your movement phase. If you do so, pick up to 3 friendly DEATHRATTLE units wholly within 18" of this model. Until the end of that phase, if you declare that any of those units will run, do not make a run roll for them. Instead, add 4" to the Move characteristic of those units until the end of that phase."