AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion

[Scythian]

5 hours ago, Harioch said:

@Scythian I was not sold on taking more than 2 boxes of Blood knights but now, seeing you displaying them like that, I'm more than tempted to make a big vampire cavalry army..."curse you !" says my wallet 😆

Lolol, glad I could help!

[rosa]

Guys! What is wrong with the grave guard? With the 2 hand option they deal 2 damage? This is insane for these points 

 

the thing is: in the official app they deal 1 damage but 2 rend. What is correct?

[Liquidsteel]

1 hour ago, rosa said:

Guys! What is wrong with the grave guard? With the 2 hand option they deal 2 damage? This is insane for these points 

 

the thing is: in the official app they deal 1 damage but 2 rend. What is correct?

The book and any FAQs are correct. 

[Reinholt]

2 hours ago, rosa said:

Guys! What is wrong with the grave guard? With the 2 hand option they deal 2 damage? This is insane for these points 

 

the thing is: in the official app they deal 1 damage but 2 rend. What is correct?

If the 2H dudes were only 1 damage, given the majority of their damage output against my foes will come from the mortals, I can't possibly see an argument for taking them over the shieldbones.

 

An interesting typo in the app, to say the least, as it looks like they just reversed the values (book is -1 rend, 2 damage).

 

Edit: also, nothing wrong with the points; they are both slow and fragile, but hit like a truck. Given a lot of things can shoot them off the board before they ever get close, I think the points are fine. Maybe even a touch expensive at 14 points per wound with, at best, a 4+ given the current shooting meta.

Edited May 30, 2021 by Reinholt

[rosa]

9 minutes ago, rosa said:

So they are basically hearthguard berserkers for a fraction of their points and nobody sees a problem with them at this point range?

well…

 

Edited May 31, 2021 by rosa

[Ghoooouls]

Hearthguard have 2 wounds each so are easier to fit in cover and move around scenery as a smaller unit, they do mortal wounds on the hit roll instead of the wound roll (MASSIVE difference), and have incredibly easy access to a 4+ wound negation on all wounds and mortals and have 2 inch range rather than 1.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 hour ago, rosa said:

So they are basically hearthguard berserkers for a fraction of their points and nobody sees a problem with them at this point range?

well…

The big difference I see between Grave Guard and Hearthguard Berzerkers is that HGBs are just about the tankiest unit in the game, while Grave Guard sit at a 5+, 6++ with great weapons. And that's significant, because both HGBs and Grave Guard are slow. With HGBs, you can just plop them on a point, absorb a charge and hit back super hard. If you absorb a charge with Grave Guard, you'll probably lose half your unit.

I think with Grave Guard, you can't affort to just have them sit on an objective. If you want that, you can get Skeletons or Zombies to do it a lot cheaper. You have to work to get them into combat and make their melee profile actually matter. Their output is really, really good, but you need to put in a lot of effort to make it actually come into play enough to justify their points.

For what it's worth, I really think they are worth building around, though. Or alternatively, just throw 20 of them in a list unsupported. If they get in, great. If they die, at least there is a chance to get them back through Endless Legions later and have them be a problem for your opponent late game.

[rosa]

They have a 5+ and 4+ with shields. 
not +6. 

sure, hearthguard are more tankier and I do agree that the mortal on hit roles are much bigger than on to wound. 
however, we are talking about a significant point decrease here. 
 

for me the grave guard is probably the best infantry unit in the game right now. Especially at this point range. 

Edited May 31, 2021 by rosa

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

3 hours ago, rosa said:

They have a 5+ and 4+ with shields. 
not +6. 

sure, hearthguard are more tankier and I do agree that the mortal on hit roles are much bigger than on to wound. 
however, we are talking about a significant point decrease here. 
 

for me the grave guard is probably the best infantry unit in the game right now. Especially at this point range. 

5+ save for Great Weapons (which I assumed you were talking about, since you were comparing them to Hearthguard for damage output), 6++ is the Deathless minions damage prevention roll.

To my mind, Grave Guard are the closest to Freeguild Greatswords. Grave Guard get 2 damage, but Greatswords get mortal wounds in addition on the hit roll, instead of the wound roll. Otherwise, they are very similar. Same attack profile, base size, nearly the same move... Crucially, same points as well (Greatswords are cheaper for 30 right now, but probably not for long).

Here's the thing that makes me say Grave Guard are a buildaround unit: You never hear anyone talk about Freeguild Greatswords, even though they have been around for a while and are just as killy as Grave Guard.

Don't get me wrong, though: I think Grave Guard are a very good unit, and probably more useful in Gravelords than Greatswords are in Cities, since Gravelords lacks big damage options otherwise. Plus, you can deep strike them for free. I'll be running 30 of them. But they are absolutely a unit that needs support to reach its full potential.

Edited May 31, 2021 by Neil Arthur Hotep

[Ghoooouls]

2 hours ago, rosa said:

They have a 5+ and 4+ with shields. 
not +6. 

sure, hearthguard are more tankier and I do agree that the mortal on hit roles are much bigger than on to wound. 
however, we are talking about a significant point decrease here. 
 

for me the grave guard is probably the best infantry unit in the game right now. Especially at this point range. 

I don't really understand your argument.... Hearthguard are a better unit and also cost less than GG, but sounds like you're saying GG are too good?

GG 140 for 10 wounds, HG 120 for 10 wounds.

GG 3s 4s -1 d2, HG 3s 3s r1 d2.

GG 5+ save and 6++ 'ward' save with their damaging load out near a hero, HG 5+ save and 4++ ward save with damaging load out near a hero.

GG 1 inch range, HG 2 inch range.

GG take 1 wound and lose a model/attacks, HG are both MUCH harder to kill, and can take 1 wound without losing any attacks.

GG mortal wound on a wound roll, HG mortal wound on a hit roll.

Trying to include as little buffs as possible, just a hero nearby for the ward save, because both can be crazy with buffs.

 

Edited May 31, 2021 by Ghoooouls

[rosa]

Even Freeguild Greatsword are 160 points per ten and only do 1 damage 

yes, i am saying Grave guard are clearly too strong for 140 points. 

[Ghoooouls]

46 minutes ago, rosa said:

Even Freeguild Greatsword are 160 points per ten and only do 1 damage 

yes, i am saying Grave guard are clearly too strong for 140 points. 

Okay we'll I've just outlined how they aren't in my previous post.

Comparisons are usually done on a 'points per wound' basis, not a 'points per unit of 10/20' etc.

This is because 10 grave guard are much more comparable to 5 two wound models, as you're paying for 10 wounds of models. So 10 grave guard compared to 5 hearthguard, 20 grave guard compared to 10 hearth guard and so on.

You can't really compare them to 10 HG for instance, because that's comparing 10 wounds to 20 wounds of models.

Obviously there are pros and cons to being multi wound small unit vs a single wound larger unit.

You also have to take into account the whole warscroll, not just attacks and damage. You say greatswords are worse, but they can be great. They have a better base attack profile, a better save and better move. Just for being within 18 of a hero they are 2s to hit and 3s to wound, so only being damage 1 doesn't really matter, because they are getting way more attacks in as well as more mortals.

10 greatswords within 18 of a hero do 7 damage *average* to a unit with a 4+ base save. 10 Grave guard great weapons in comparison do 8 damage average to the same unit, neither of those including mortals. On average the grave guard would get around 2 mortals in from their wound rolls, whereas the greatswords would get 3-4.

Freeguild greatswords are also 140 points for 10.

Edited May 31, 2021 by Ghoooouls

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 hour ago, rosa said:

Even Freeguild Greatsword are 160 points per ten and only do 1 damage 

You have the wrong points somehow. Check Warscroll Builder: Greatswords are 140 points and still get a horde discount at 30 (360 points).

If you calculate the damage outputs of Grave Guard and Greatswords, they are very similar. Grave Guard with great weapons do a bit better because of their two damage, but Greatwords dealing mortals on hit nearly makes up the difference. Not that it matters that much, since both units will just about overkill anything if you put any kind of offensive buff on them. They are seriously basically the same unit.

[Frowny]

@Ghoooouls note that the grave guard will be 10 models with 2 attacks each = 20 attacks. For similar points, hearthguard have only 10 attacks. While yes you are right on the other points, that is a very very significant difference to overlook.

Also, it is quite trivial to get them +1 to hit and wound, and not that hard to get +1 attack if desired. Compared to freeguild great swords they are far more buffable.

I think they are definitely playable. Maybe even strong in the right situation. 

 

 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

6 minutes ago, Frowny said:

Also, it is quite trivial to get them +1 to hit and wound, and not that hard to get +1 attack if desired. Compared to freeguild great swords they are far more buffable.

Greatswords get +1 to hit on their warscroll and there are a few ways to get them +1 to wound and at least one spell that can get them +1 attacks. The comparison is fairly close. Plus, at a point you have to really ask yourself what you are trying to kill by buffing up your units so much.

That's basically my point on Grave Guard: After just one offensive buff, they will kill pretty much anything. Yeah, you can get them to 2+/2+, +2 attacks, attacking twice. But really, unless you are planning to break Phoenix Guard or Hearthguard, why put in that much effort? They will pretty reliably blend anything but the tankiest enemies even with just one buff, same as Greatswords.

[Mikeymajq]

I don't think Grave Guard are that comparable to HGB's. maybe with broadaxes but honestly, getting hit by the flamestrike poleaxes is insane, because they deal 2 MW's on the hit roll. And I've never had any trouble getting every model in range with that 2" reach.. Grave guard will very rarely get their full numbers in to swing despite smaller bases.

But more than that they get insanely tough really easily with Duty unto Death and having 2 wounds. Let's not even mention some of the insane murder dorf things you can get into if you apply more buffs than having a hero nearby. 

Yes Grave guard hit pretty hard, and is almost like having a watered down version both broadaxe+flamestrike in one. But if anything gets to them they'll die (and then stand back up again later, hopefully). Not saying they are bad, they're really great now. But Hearthguard Berzerkers are freaking nuts, man. 

Edited May 31, 2021 by Mikeymajq

[Raptor_Jesues]

Graveguards are great, HGB are dirty and pretty bad for the game

[Mikeymajq]

 

8 minutes ago, Raptor_Jesues said:

Graveguards are great, HGB are dirty and pretty bad for the game

That is a good way of putting it actually  

[Aelford]

Hello everyone. I’ve been writing up lists. I know we’re expecting big changes with 3rd edition soon, but I like to paint towards a list. What do you think of the below? I can drop the bats for cogs if needed. 
 

Vyrkos Dynasty
Vampire Lord
- General, Driven by Deathstench, Ulfenkarnian Phylactery, Soulpike
Necromancer 
- Lore of the Deathmages: Overwhelming Dread
Mannfred von Carstein, Mortarch of Night
- Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine Pinions
Radukar the Beast
40 x Deadwalker Zombies
20 x Deadwalker Zombies 
20 x Deadwalker Zombies 
3 x Fell Bats 
1 x Corpse Cart with Unholy Lodestone
30 x Grave Guard 
- Wight Blades & Crypt Shields

[Ghoooouls]

14 hours ago, Frowny said:

@Ghoooouls note that the grave guard will be 10 models with 2 attacks each = 20 attacks. For similar points, hearthguard have only 10 attacks. While yes you are right on the other points, that is a very very significant difference to overlook.

Also, it is quite trivial to get them +1 to hit and wound, and not that hard to get +1 attack if desired. Compared to freeguild great swords they are far more buffable.

I think they are definitely playable. Maybe even strong in the right situation. 

 

 

Yea I didn't overlook this, I purposefully didn't talk about various points as it gets quite in depth. Yes GG have more attacks, but they are harder to position because there are more models, harder to manoeuvre around scenery, harder to get within range of buffs, easier to keep out of range of enemy abilities, charges, shooting etc etc. There are so many variables, but yeah a larger unit also has benefits like screening better and stuff.

I think something that is talked about a lot and maybe what you guys that think GG might be OP is that they can be buffed to crazy. But as Neil pointed out, its kinda pointless. They are perfectly capable of blending most units anyway, with 1 or 2 buffs they become capable of blending almost any unit, like a lot of heavy hitting units are. But that comes to the point of building around a unit of grave guard.

I've done around 8 battle with the new tome, GG have been great half the time, useless the other half. They are slow. And if the enemy targets them, they melt with a stiff breeze.

They are good. No doubt about that. But they are definitely not OP and not the best infantry in the game.

Edited June 1, 2021 by Ghoooouls

[Ghoooouls]

29 minutes ago, Aelford said:

Hello everyone. I’ve been writing up lists. I know we’re expecting big changes with 3rd edition soon, but I like to paint towards a list. What do you think of the below? I can drop the bats for cogs if needed. 
 

Vyrkos Dynasty
Vampire Lord
- General, Driven by Deathstench, Ulfenkarnian Phylactery, Soulpike
Necromancer 
- Lore of the Deathmages: Overwhelming Dread
Mannfred von Carstein, Mortarch of Night
- Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine Pinions
Radukar the Beast
40 x Deadwalker Zombies
20 x Deadwalker Zombies 
20 x Deadwalker Zombies 
3 x Fell Bats 
1 x Corpse Cart with Unholy Lodestone
30 x Grave Guard 
- Wight Blades & Crypt Shields

Looks fun! My only worry would be not having anything fast, other than your heroes... and bats but let's be honest bats are just there to block lol

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

34 minutes ago, Aelford said:

Hello everyone. I’ve been writing up lists. I know we’re expecting big changes with 3rd edition soon, but I like to paint towards a list. What do you think of the below? I can drop the bats for cogs if needed. 
 

Vyrkos Dynasty
Vampire Lord
- General, Driven by Deathstench, Ulfenkarnian Phylactery, Soulpike
Necromancer 
- Lore of the Deathmages: Overwhelming Dread
Mannfred von Carstein, Mortarch of Night
- Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine Pinions
Radukar the Beast
40 x Deadwalker Zombies
20 x Deadwalker Zombies 
20 x Deadwalker Zombies 
3 x Fell Bats 
1 x Corpse Cart with Unholy Lodestone
30 x Grave Guard 
- Wight Blades & Crypt Shields

How do you see this list playing? I think it looks solid in general, but slow. Also consider using the other battleline options, not just Zombies. They are all pretty solid.

[swarmofseals]

Grave Guard are by far the most offensively efficient unit in the book, and they are a top tier offensive efficiency unit in the game. Assuming rend 1 damage 2 is correct, their weighted offensive efficiency is .161, which is really excellent and as others have said they are also very buffable.

They are a lot like buffed Ardboys or Brutes in that they will probably obliterate anything they touch.

Are they broken? I definitely don't think so.

The problem is that they are slow and defensively very inefficient. They are way less defensively efficient than Ardboys or Brutes, and they don't have access to the movement shenanigans that really help. On the other side of the coin, being able to bring units back and restore losses is nice.

I've played quite a bit of OWC and the problem isn't with killing things, and although GG are arguably even better than Ironjawz at killing things I don't think it actually matters. When you get your Brutes or Ardboys stuck in, the enemy is gonna eat it. Grave Guard might deal even more damage, but dead is dead. The problem is getting shot to pieces, kited, or screened out, and I think Grave Guard are at a disadvantage there.

I think there is a solid chance Grave Guard will see some competitive play, but I think they are a long way from needing nerfs.

(Sidenote: I actually love this battletome and think there are a ton of good options. If I have some extra time I'll try to write something more substantial)

[Scythian]

On 5/30/2021 at 3:27 PM, rosa said:

Guys! What is wrong with the grave guard? With the 2 hand option they deal 2 damage? This is insane for these points 

 

the thing is: in the official app they deal 1 damage but 2 rend. What is correct?

Rosa, honestly, for me it’s just a matter of preference. I wanted to play a crusader styled Templar vampire knights army. I’m tapped out for armies until next year. This Soulblight Gravelords army ended my financial splurging for 2021. 

[Jaxler]

So, I've found that most summonable units are actually pretty bad. Graveguard lack the staying power to be a good anvil for their points, and have no mobility so they're bad hammers. I've found that skelies just suck and get leaf blown, and zombies are too squishy to do anything well other than objective camp. 

 

I also found most the support for these units is bad. Within 12 inches in rough, a lot of buffs suck outright, and don't fix problems the units have. That, or are tied to so much tax as to be useless (deathmarch). A lot of heroes are overpriced too. 

 

Basically, you take wolves with Bella, and a pick/choose of manny, the beast, vamp lords on zombie dragon, blood knights and magic. Everything else just doesn't work. Just act like summonable units don't exist. 

 

I found many, many minor problems that ruin a lot of other builds. Its just so many tiny restrictions that ruin things. 

Edited June 1, 2021 by Jaxler