Wordy9th Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 1 hour ago, Craze said: I had a game yesterday against StD with my list mentioned a couple of pages ago. I now have one question: What role do you use Zombies for? To be honest for me they felt REALLY underwhelming: They have ZERO punch and also ZERO staying power, so I cannot even use them as reliable objective holders, they just felt really really underwhelming. Don't they do alright popping out of a graveyard with 20 wounds, while potentially doing decent damage if given the +1 attack command trait? I saw a unit of 40 do a fair job of tanking Kragnos in a MWG battlereport backed up by a -1 to hit corpse cart and vampire lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidsteel Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 28 minutes ago, Obeisance said: Awesome, a monster mash Avengorii list placed over the weekend. It's super cool to see a list like this can do decently. =D - Lineage: Avengorii Dynasty - Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery LEADERS Prince Vhordrai (455) - Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon Vengorian Lord (280) - General - Command Trait: Torment-driven Throes - Artefact: Amulet of Destiny - Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine Pinions Lauka Vai, Mother of Nightmares (285) - Lore of the Vampires: Vile Transference UNITS 3 x Fell Bats (75) BEHEMOTHS Terrorgheist (305) in Alpha-Beast Pack - Cursed Mutation: Maddening Hunger Terrorgheist (305) in Alpha-Beast Pack Zombie Dragon (295) in Alpha-Beast Pack - Cursed Mutation: Nullblood Construct Where did this take place? The list appears to be illegal? Vhordrai can't take Flaming Weapon due to being Unique, and without Warlord or Command Entourage Battalions the second Cursed Mutation is questionable, as you can only pick one Unique Enhancement initially, right> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boar Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Liquidsteel said: My understanding is that they're not included in the GHB or Core Rules and thus they have been removed. I believe the GHB 2021 lists which publications are legal and "in play". Malign Sorcery/Forbidden Power were missing (can't double check as at work) and obviously GHB 20 is superseded by 21. 1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said: I suspected as much. I know that list exists in the GHB 2021, but I don't own the book yet to check. But this situation really makes the most sense, I guess it's just Warscroll Builder who made a mistake (understandable, honestly, the rules are still really unclear right now). Just as confrimation Core Book and GHB 2021 (along with pitched battle profiles) are directly listed under Core Rules, and only those. Edited July 19, 2021 by Boar 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tizianolol Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 If we can buff out Vlozd with flaming weapon( buffing mount) damage seems very hight! Apparently anything con core rules specify otherwise!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warbossironteef Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 10 hours ago, Craze said: I had a game yesterday against StD with my list mentioned a couple of pages ago. I now have one question: What role do you use Zombies for? To be honest for me they felt REALLY underwhelming: They have ZERO punch and also ZERO staying power, so I cannot even use them as reliable objective holders, they just felt really really underwhelming. How many were you using? I think zombies are awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AHexInScarletRed Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords- Lineage: Kastelai Dynasty- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line- Triumphs: InspiredLeadersPrince Vhordrai (455) in Battle Regiment- Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine PinionsVengorian Lord (280) in Battle Regiment- General- Command Trait: Rousing Commander- Artefact: Sword of the Red Seneschals- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming WeaponVampire Lord (140) in Battle Regiment- Universal Spell Lore: Ghost-mistBattleline20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115) in Battle Regiment20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115) in Battle Regiment5 x Blood Knights (195) in Battle Regiment5 x Blood Knights (195) in Battle Regiment5 x Blood Knights (195) in Battle Regiment10 x Dire Wolves (135) in Battle RegimentUnits3 x Fell Bats (75) in Battle Regiment3 x Fell Bats (75) in Battle RegimentCore BattalionsBattle RegimentBattle RegimentTotal: 1975 / 2000Reinforced Units: 0 / 4Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 152 Would you change something about that? I'm using the Vampire Lord over a Necromancer because I have nothing that gives the Zombies +Attacks, so the Vampire Lord is more reliable than a Necromancer using VDM. He's also a bit faster than the Necromancer and flies, so he's gonna get to the terrain piece he wants to use Ghost Mist on easier. Fell Bats against Shooting, Wolves & Zombies also, a tad. Double Battle Regiment for two drops. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craze Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 1 hour ago, Warbossironteef said: How many were you using? I think zombies are awesome. I used 2x20 and was not impressed. What I was impressed with is the Vengorian Lord, he is surprisingly durable and with Sangsyron he packs a decent punch for his points on the charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaylorCorvette Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 (edited) 11 hours ago, Craze said: I had a game yesterday against StD with my list mentioned a couple of pages ago. I now have one question: What role do you use Zombies for? To be honest for me they felt REALLY underwhelming: They have ZERO punch and also ZERO staying power, so I cannot even use them as reliable objective holders, they just felt really really underwhelming. Well in my mind you use zombies one of two ways. The first being chaff / something that stays in the grave or utilize / abuse activate and pile in 6" to lock things in combat. The second being building your list around zombies to amplyify them. Necromancer so they fight twice, Vampire Lord to double their attacks, supported by other heroes. In my Kastelai list I use a single unit of 20 Zombies. Generally I deploy them in the graves. I place my grave sites in such a way that at lest one of them is far back corner of my opponents deployment zone. If objectives are on far side of the board (as opposed to middle) then I will have them in the general area. A single unit is pretty cheap at only 115 pts. They either stay in the graves for late game to threaten a back line objective (20 bodies for 115 pts is cheap!!) or they force my opponent to zone out an area and thus waste resources. This really hurts armies that do not have cheap units in their list for baby sitting duty and I'm seeing a lot of that in 3.0 so far. Also their activate from 6" out and pile in 6" is huge. You could technically have them auto run 6" giving 10" movement allowing them to get into combat with something that is 16" away from them at the start of their turn. I've used this before where they support a unit of Blood Knights or a Hero. My unit fights, the enemy fights back and then the Zombies activate and pile in safely. In this case I'm not looking to do huge damage but instead help tie up something. Edited July 19, 2021 by BaylorCorvette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warbossironteef Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 1 hour ago, Craze said: I used 2x20 and was not impressed. What I was impressed with is the Vengorian Lord, he is surprisingly durable and with Sangsyron he packs a decent punch for his points on the charge. 2x20 only do two things well. 1st is they cost 115 points and the 2nd is the stand there and die :). Like others said, they are legit awesome in 40s and 60s. 6 inch pile in is so good. Also, you can bring back 20 and 30 with Gorslav who is only 75 points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaizennus Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 First of all, thank you for the suggestions about how to improve my lists. I've made some attempts at what I hope are more focused lists, and using what models I currently have access to (so perhaps not completely optimal). Grave Guard Focused List Spoiler Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords- Lineage: Legion of Night- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line- Triumphs:LeadersMannfred von Carstein, Mortarch of Night (380) in Battle Regiment- Lore of the Deathmages: Overwhelming DreadWight King on Skeletal Steed (130) in Command Entourage- General- Command Trait: Unbending Will- Artefact: Morbheg's ClawVampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (435) in Command Entourage- Deathlance- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming WeaponNecromancer (125) in Command Entourage- Lore of the Deathmages: Fading VigourBattleline20 x Grave Guard (280) in Battle Regiment- Great Wight Blades- Reinforced x 120 x Grave Guard (280) in Battle Regiment- Great Wight Blades- Reinforced x 110 x Grave Guard (140) in Battle Regiment- Great Wight BladesUnits1 x Corpse Cart with Balefire Brazier (80) in Battle Regiment3 x Fell Bats (75) in Battle Regiment3 x Fell Bats (75) in Battle RegimentAdditional EnhancementsArtefactTotal: 2000 / 2000Reinforced Units: 2 / 4Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 112 Rationale Spoiler Grave Guard have been really good in my "meta" since most of the time I'm going first and sitting on objectives to try and force my opponents to attack into me. My usual opponents play "control" focused lists with high magic/medium shooting so I've found it pretty tough to break into their castles or home objectives. The rationale for this list is: - Mannfred is an independent unit that can act as support if needed or roam around the board for objective play - VLoZD is an independent hammer unit who will probably get shot down by the end of turn one, but "absorb" a lot of resources from the opponent to do so. My hope is also to use it as a way of softening up my opponents anti horde units such as big groups of Bladelords. He has the generic amulet which should hopefully extend his life a little. - Wight King is taken as a battleline requirement for the GG. This list goes Legion of Night specifically to take advantage of Unbending Will since I think Battleshock could be a big issue. He has the Morbheg's Claw which seems like a weird choice but I don't plan on engaging him in combat and I think the +2 to casting will help out the Necromancer get his spells off. - Necromancer is there for his spell buffs and should be sturdier than a vampire lord due to his wound bouncing. - Corpse Cart is another buff piece that will also be an early target for shooting/magic, but everything put into it is something not put into my GG. If it lasts long enough the aura should help the GG stay alive. - 20/20/10 Grave Guard should be pretty decent grinders, albeit immobile ones. Very weak to shooting but my hope is that by the time my opponent has worked through the VLoZD and Corpse Cart my GG have already engaged in melee and perhaps Mannfred has worked his way into their backline. - 2 groups of Fell Bats to act as screens or harassment for ranged units depending on the situation. - This is a 5 drop but could technically be a 2 drop. This is a bit of a meta choice because I know my opponents pretty much always bring large drop lists. - Overall, my hope is that this army is relatively self-sufficient because my opponents are really good at locking me down from every casting spells or using many command points, but if the buffs do get off they will make the GG pretty strong. - One thing I want to consider is if this would run better in Vyrkos for the consistent +1 to wound and perhaps the guaranteed command ability. Not sure if it's worth losing Mannfred as an additional general, the battleshock safety, and the stronger casting ability. Blood Knight List Spoiler Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords- Lineage: Kastelai Dynasty- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line- Triumphs: BloodthirstyLeadersMannfred von Carstein, Mortarch of Night (380)- Lore of the Deathmages: Fading VigourPrince Vhordrai (455)- Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine PinionsVengorian Lord (280) in Battle Regiment- General- Command Trait: Swift and Deadly- Artefact: Fragment of the Keep- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming WeaponBattleline5 x Blood Knights (195) in Battle Regiment5 x Blood Knights (195) in Battle Regiment5 x Blood Knights (195) in Battle Regiment10 x Dire Wolves (135) in Battle Regiment10 x Dire Wolves (135) in Battle RegimentAdditional EnhancementsTotal: 1970 / 2000Reinforced Units: 0 / 4Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 121 Rationale Spoiler - Nothing particularly fancy here. Just a hard hitting, fast list that is almost completely self sufficient and doesn't rely on any command abilities or spells to work. - Taking 2 units of Dire Wolves to screen.. but possibly considering a list where I replace the Dire Wolves and Vengorian Lord for a generic VLoZD and some Fell Bats instead. Vyrkos List Spoiler Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords- Lineage: Vyrkos Dynasty- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line- Triumphs: BloodthirstyLeadersMannfred von Carstein, Mortarch of Night (380)- Lore of the Deathmages: Fading VigourVampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (435) in Battle Regiment- General- Deathlance- Command Trait: Hunter's Snare- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming WeaponRadukar the Beast (315) in VanguardBattleline10 x Dire Wolves (135) in Battle Regiment10 x Dire Wolves (135) in Battle Regiment10 x Dire Wolves (135) in Battle RegimentUnits5 x Blood Knights (195) in Battle Regiment5 x Blood Knights (195) in Battle Regiment3 x Fell Bats (75) in VanguardAdditional EnhancementsArtefactTotal: 2000 / 2000Reinforced Units: 0 / 4Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 137 Rationale Spoiler * I realize there is some debate on whether or not you must take a sub-faction artefact as your first artefact, so if that's the case then I would change the Amulet to Sangsyron. - VLoZD is an independent threat who can also contest an objective with his command trait, though he is likely to die pretty early on. - Radukar has been great in games where I got him into combat, but he's very weak to shooting. My hope is that the VLoZD is enough of a distraction to let him get into combat. - 4 units of dire wolves when you include Radukar's summon is a fair number of fast units that can screen or run around the backline to harass ranged units. - 2 units of Blood Knights are the third threat but they are pretty unsupported - Fell Bats fill in the remaining points and once again can act as a screen or harassing unit. I tried to make these lists using the suggestions made in the thread while also taking into consideration the people I play against. For example, Belladamma has been quite bad for me (with or without spell portal) because I just can't contend with the magic in a Zaitrec or Hallowheart list. Critique, either about the lists or about my rationales (I wrote them out to give an idea of what I'm thinking about when making the list but I could have lots of misconceptions) would be very welcome~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swarmofseals Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 19 hours ago, Craze said: I had a game yesterday against StD with my list mentioned a couple of pages ago. I now have one question: What role do you use Zombies for? To be honest for me they felt REALLY underwhelming: They have ZERO punch and also ZERO staying power, so I cannot even use them as reliable objective holders, they just felt really really underwhelming. Statistically they are pretty average on offense and a little above average on defense for their cost (not counting their ability to add new models). They scale extremely well with bonus attacks though, so support from Mannfred, a Vampire Lord, or Radukar turns them into legit killers for their cost (and if you get Vanhels that's a multiplicative bonus). They also deal mortal wounds which nicely complements other hammers which mostly deal rend 1. Their profile is perfectly suited to dealing with enemies that are heavily armored and deal rendy or mortal damage. Against such targets they will be very efficient. Others have already mentioned the gravesite and pile-in shenanigans. They are also really good in a Nagash list which lets you ignore battleshock and helps counterbalance the lack of numbers. I had two blocks of 40 tie down and eventually destroy Teclis and a block of 20 Vanari Auralan Wardens. ________________________ @Kaizennus it'd be helpful to know a bit more about what your opponents are running too. There can be a pretty big variation in Hallowheart lists, and 40 sentinel Zaitrec lists are a very different animal from 20 sentinel lists etc. I assume Zaitrec is running Teclis? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obeisance Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 Are people finding Blood Knights good? I'm kind of sketchy about -1 only rend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaizennus Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 3 minutes ago, swarmofseals said: ________________________ @Kaizennus it'd be helpful to know a bit more about what your opponents are running too. There can be a pretty big variation in Hallowheart lists, and 40 sentinel Zaitrec lists are a very different animal from 20 sentinel lists etc. I assume Zaitrec is running Teclis? We're all running what I guess you would call, "non-competitive" lists since it's a small group. Our LRL is not running Teclis at the moment and is only running 20 sentinels. This is done partly out of being interested in playing other units that are more fun to him and partly because he knows it's really strong and changes the game pretty significantly. The CoS player is running a lot of the Dark Elf/Empire stuff for shooting and has a lot of direct damage spells. I do want to be careful though. My intention is not to out-right counter their armies, which I suppose I could since I know their lists. I still want to bring something that is fairly "balanced", as in something I would bring to a small tournament, but maybe just one where I know that lots of people favor magic and shooting lists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obeisance Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 How would you guys feel about this as a competitive list? Double dragons for aggression/damage. Zombies to screen and hold objectives, bats to draw Unleash Hell, knights to run around and hit things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidsteel Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 It looks fine to me. Double Dragon, Blood Knights and Fell Bats are what I've been toying with in Warscroll Builder How would you feel about swapping one unit of zombies for some dire wolves? You have the points spare. Or 1 unit of zombies and fell bats and a 4th unit of blood knights. As you are gives a good chance for the Triumph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 2 hours ago, Obeisance said: Are people finding Blood Knights good? I'm kind of sketchy about -1 only rend. People are really fixated on rend right now, but it's really not what matters. What matters is just if they can get good damage through against high saves. And Blood Knights really perform fine in that department: Save Blood Knights Blood Knights +1 to hit Blood Knights +1 to hit and damage 2+ 5.37 6.76 9.72 3+ 8.36 10.56 15 4+ 11.36 14.35 20.28 5+ 14.35 18.15 25.56 6+ 17.35 21.94 30.83 - 17.97 22.78 31.67 Those calculations are for 5 Blood Knights. A regular unit of Blood Knights deals more than 10 damage against 4+ on the charge unbuffed, so you can expect them to wipe other min-size units. And buffed-up units have no problem getting good amounts of damage through even against 2+ saves. Of course, you won't be breaking a 2+/5++ Mawcrusher on just one charge, but that guys is 500 points with an artefact to your Blood Knight's 200. I think the damage output looks good, considering the point difference. It's also important to note that Blood Knights will grind down a lot of opponents, because they can sit on a 2+ save themself if you want them to and can heal. Their moral wounds and retreat and charge make them even harder to beat in drawn-out engagements. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidsteel Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 (edited) Something I wanted to mention, because I didn't spot it straight away so maybe someone else hasn't realised either, is that Blood Knights can still retreat and charge regardless of the wounds characteristic of the enemy unit, it's simply the "counts as flying" and Mortal Wounds on passing over that requires 3 wounds or less. Edited July 20, 2021 by Liquidsteel 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor_Jesues Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said: People are really fixated on rend right now, but it's really not what matters. What matters is just if they can get good damage through against high saves. And Blood Knights really perform fine in that department: Save Blood Knights Blood Knights +1 to hit Blood Knights +1 to hit and damage 2+ 5.37 6.76 9.72 3+ 8.36 10.56 15 4+ 11.36 14.35 20.28 5+ 14.35 18.15 25.56 6+ 17.35 21.94 30.83 - 17.97 22.78 31.67 Those calculations are for 5 Blood Knights. ... not to mention that giving them 1 extra attack (thank you radukar) can spike their damage A LOT. Like 5 bloodknights with radukar, extra damage on and all out assault (2 CP and a trait, not to unrealistic) are pumping out 27 or so damage against 4+ save wich is fairly brutal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidsteel Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 Had a busy week of painting, finally managed to get 40 Zombies done, which means I can stop proxying Ghouls. Going to give Vyrkos a first go, using a bunch of units I haven't tried yet in 3rd Edition. Here's the list, first using VLoZD, Bella, Mannfred and the Blood Knights in 3.0. Spoiler Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords- Lineage: Vyrkos Dynasty- Mortal Realm: Ghur- Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery- Triumphs: InspiredLeadersVampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (435) in Warlord- General- Deathlance- Command Trait: Driven by Deathstench- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming WeaponRadukar the Beast (315) in Battle RegimentBelladamma Volga, First of the Vyrkos (200) in Warlord- Lore of the Vampires: Spirit GaleNecromancer (125) in Warlord- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)- Lore of the Deathmages: Fading VigourBattleline10 x Dire Wolves (135) in Battle Regiment20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115) in Battle Regiment20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115) in WarlordUnits20 x Grave Guard (280) in Battle Regiment- Great Wight Blades- Reinforced x 15 x Blood Knights (195) in Battle RegimentEndless Spells & InvocationsUmbral Spellportal (70)Core BattalionsBattle RegimentWarlordAdditional EnhancementsArtefactTotal: 1985 / 2000Reinforced Units: 1 / 4Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 135 It's simple enough, Bella aims to cast Lycancurse through the Portal to prevent multiple units from using Redeploy and Unleash Hell. VLoZD, Radukar and Blood Knights push forward, with the re-roll charges good chance to get them stuck in turn 1. Grave Guard can either try to join the party OR pop up behind a screen along with Bella to hold down an objective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 3 minutes ago, Raptor_Jesues said: not to mention that giving them 1 extra attack (thank you radukar) can spike their damage A LOT. Like 5 bloodknights with radukar, extra damage on and all out assault (2 CP and a trait, not to unrealistic) are pumping out 27 or so damage against 4+ save wich is fairly brutal Yeah, I just calculated a few basic buffs you can get without a lot of trouble, but there is definitely a lot of buff potential with Blood Knights. They benefit well from all the different kinds of buffs in the Gravelords tome, +1 to hit, +1 to wound and +1 attacks are all good on them. All fairly realistic to achieve, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 2 minutes ago, Liquidsteel said: Had a busy week of painting, finally managed to get 40 Zombies done, which means I can stop proxying Ghouls. Going to give Vyrkos a first go, using a bunch of units I haven't tried yet in 3rd Edition. Here's the list, first using VLoZD, Bella, Mannfred and the Blood Knights in 3.0. [...] It's simple enough, Bella aims to cast Lycancurse through the Portal to prevent multiple units from using Redeploy and Unleash Hell. VLoZD, Radukar and Blood Knights push forward, with the re-roll charges good chance to get them stuck in turn 1. Grave Guard can either try to join the party OR pop up behind a screen along with Bella to hold down an objective. Interesting that you go with Driven by Deathstench on the VLoZD instead of Pack Alpha or Hunter's Snare. I know it's a good trait, but it always kind of seems like the 3rd best choice to me, especially since you can spend the command point from Pack Alpha to reroll charges as well. I'll be interested to know how that works out for you in practice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidsteel Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 11 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said: Interesting that you go with Driven by Deathstench on the VLoZD instead of Pack Alpha or Hunter's Snare. I know it's a good trait, but it always kind of seems like the 3rd best choice to me, especially since you can spend the command point from Pack Alpha to reroll charges as well. I'll be interested to know how that works out for you in practice Yeah the thought was that there will potentially be 4 units attempting charges turn 1 (VLoZD, Radukar, Blood Knights and possibly Grave Guard), and you can't issue the same Command more than once per phase, which this gets around as it's a Trait. Even with Pack Alpha, my interpretation is that the Command has still be Used, so you can't do one for free and then one regular. The others are also great for sure, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 Just now, Liquidsteel said: Yeah the thought was that there will potentially be 4 units attempting charges turn 1 (VLoZD, Radukar, Blood Knights and possibly Grave Guard), and you can't issue the same Command more than once per phase, which this gets around as it's a Trait. Even with Pack Alpha, my interpretation is that the Command has still be Used, so you can't do one for free and then one regular. The others are also great for sure, though. Yeah, that's all true, and wholly within 9" of a 130mm base is a big bubble, so there is definitely a good chance that you will get more than one useful reroll out of it. It's just that all the Vyrkos command traits are so good that I always worry about the opportunity cost, haha. I have considered Driven by Deathstench before, too, but it's just so hard to evaluate without getting a feel for it in practice. The VLoZD should get a 14" move turn 1, possibly up to 20" with Pinions so will he benefit from a charge reroll? Radukar gets 8" move, plus run and charge for another 10-11" on average, cross an 18" deployment gap probably, but would he be able to reliably cross bigger gaps with a reroll? Blood Knights have a fairly good chance to make that 18" charge as well. How high are the chances that I will actually need to reroll more than one charge if I want all these guys in combat turn 1? I think answering these questions will take a lot of attentive play on many different battleplans, so I am really curious about what your experience with Driven by Deathstench will be like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidsteel Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 Yeah it's all still to be tested, opponent may not deploy on the line at 18" or indeed at 22" deployment and sit back. Or they may be Nurgle and take first turn and push up to the middle, rendering the rerolls useless as all units will have their prime choice of targets. If the Portal/Lycancurse combo fails, then the opponent will also be free to redeploy and/or unleash hell. Maybe a 5" charge gets you in, but an 8" charge let's you position such that you keep out of 9" of Unleash Hell. I took Flaming Weapon on the VLoZD but that was when I was planning to take Sangsyron, have since switched to Amulet so maybe Pinions is indeed better, it's what he had in 2.0. Lots of conditionals. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warbossironteef Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 16 hours ago, Kaizennus said: First of all, thank you for the suggestions about how to improve my lists. I've made some attempts at what I hope are more focused lists, and using what models I currently have access to (so perhaps not completely optimal). Grave Guard Focused List Hide contents Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords- Lineage: Legion of Night- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line- Triumphs:LeadersMannfred von Carstein, Mortarch of Night (380) in Battle Regiment- Lore of the Deathmages: Overwhelming DreadWight King on Skeletal Steed (130) in Command Entourage- General- Command Trait: Unbending Will- Artefact: Morbheg's ClawVampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (435) in Command Entourage- Deathlance- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming WeaponNecromancer (125) in Command Entourage- Lore of the Deathmages: Fading VigourBattleline20 x Grave Guard (280) in Battle Regiment- Great Wight Blades- Reinforced x 120 x Grave Guard (280) in Battle Regiment- Great Wight Blades- Reinforced x 110 x Grave Guard (140) in Battle Regiment- Great Wight BladesUnits1 x Corpse Cart with Balefire Brazier (80) in Battle Regiment3 x Fell Bats (75) in Battle Regiment3 x Fell Bats (75) in Battle RegimentAdditional EnhancementsArtefactTotal: 2000 / 2000Reinforced Units: 2 / 4Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 112 Rationale Hide contents Grave Guard have been really good in my "meta" since most of the time I'm going first and sitting on objectives to try and force my opponents to attack into me. My usual opponents play "control" focused lists with high magic/medium shooting so I've found it pretty tough to break into their castles or home objectives. The rationale for this list is: - Mannfred is an independent unit that can act as support if needed or roam around the board for objective play - VLoZD is an independent hammer unit who will probably get shot down by the end of turn one, but "absorb" a lot of resources from the opponent to do so. My hope is also to use it as a way of softening up my opponents anti horde units such as big groups of Bladelords. He has the generic amulet which should hopefully extend his life a little. - Wight King is taken as a battleline requirement for the GG. This list goes Legion of Night specifically to take advantage of Unbending Will since I think Battleshock could be a big issue. He has the Morbheg's Claw which seems like a weird choice but I don't plan on engaging him in combat and I think the +2 to casting will help out the Necromancer get his spells off. - Necromancer is there for his spell buffs and should be sturdier than a vampire lord due to his wound bouncing. - Corpse Cart is another buff piece that will also be an early target for shooting/magic, but everything put into it is something not put into my GG. If it lasts long enough the aura should help the GG stay alive. - 20/20/10 Grave Guard should be pretty decent grinders, albeit immobile ones. Very weak to shooting but my hope is that by the time my opponent has worked through the VLoZD and Corpse Cart my GG have already engaged in melee and perhaps Mannfred has worked his way into their backline. - 2 groups of Fell Bats to act as screens or harassment for ranged units depending on the situation. - This is a 5 drop but could technically be a 2 drop. This is a bit of a meta choice because I know my opponents pretty much always bring large drop lists. - Overall, my hope is that this army is relatively self-sufficient because my opponents are really good at locking me down from every casting spells or using many command points, but if the buffs do get off they will make the GG pretty strong. - One thing I want to consider is if this would run better in Vyrkos for the consistent +1 to wound and perhaps the guaranteed command ability. Not sure if it's worth losing Mannfred as an additional general, the battleshock safety, and the stronger casting ability. Blood Knight List Hide contents Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords- Lineage: Kastelai Dynasty- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line- Triumphs: BloodthirstyLeadersMannfred von Carstein, Mortarch of Night (380)- Lore of the Deathmages: Fading VigourPrince Vhordrai (455)- Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine PinionsVengorian Lord (280) in Battle Regiment- General- Command Trait: Swift and Deadly- Artefact: Fragment of the Keep- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming WeaponBattleline5 x Blood Knights (195) in Battle Regiment5 x Blood Knights (195) in Battle Regiment5 x Blood Knights (195) in Battle Regiment10 x Dire Wolves (135) in Battle Regiment10 x Dire Wolves (135) in Battle RegimentAdditional EnhancementsTotal: 1970 / 2000Reinforced Units: 0 / 4Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 121 Rationale Hide contents - Nothing particularly fancy here. Just a hard hitting, fast list that is almost completely self sufficient and doesn't rely on any command abilities or spells to work. - Taking 2 units of Dire Wolves to screen.. but possibly considering a list where I replace the Dire Wolves and Vengorian Lord for a generic VLoZD and some Fell Bats instead. Vyrkos List Hide contents Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords- Lineage: Vyrkos Dynasty- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line- Triumphs: BloodthirstyLeadersMannfred von Carstein, Mortarch of Night (380)- Lore of the Deathmages: Fading VigourVampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (435) in Battle Regiment- General- Deathlance- Command Trait: Hunter's Snare- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming WeaponRadukar the Beast (315) in VanguardBattleline10 x Dire Wolves (135) in Battle Regiment10 x Dire Wolves (135) in Battle Regiment10 x Dire Wolves (135) in Battle RegimentUnits5 x Blood Knights (195) in Battle Regiment5 x Blood Knights (195) in Battle Regiment3 x Fell Bats (75) in VanguardAdditional EnhancementsArtefactTotal: 2000 / 2000Reinforced Units: 0 / 4Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 137 Rationale Reveal hidden contents * I realize there is some debate on whether or not you must take a sub-faction artefact as your first artefact, so if that's the case then I would change the Amulet to Sangsyron. - VLoZD is an independent threat who can also contest an objective with his command trait, though he is likely to die pretty early on. - Radukar has been great in games where I got him into combat, but he's very weak to shooting. My hope is that the VLoZD is enough of a distraction to let him get into combat. - 4 units of dire wolves when you include Radukar's summon is a fair number of fast units that can screen or run around the backline to harass ranged units. - 2 units of Blood Knights are the third threat but they are pretty unsupported - Fell Bats fill in the remaining points and once again can act as a screen or harassing unit. I tried to make these lists using the suggestions made in the thread while also taking into consideration the people I play against. For example, Belladamma has been quite bad for me (with or without spell portal) because I just can't contend with the magic in a Zaitrec or Hallowheart list. Critique, either about the lists or about my rationales (I wrote them out to give an idea of what I'm thinking about when making the list but I could have lots of misconceptions) would be very welcome~ Not a fan of the Graveguard list but really like the Kasetali one. You could win a lot of games with that list. Lacks bodies but has a ton of 3+ saves and good dmg output on charge. I think that type of list would do well for you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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