AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion

[Sigmarusvult]

I am thinking of getting the FEC Start Collecting box and a box of zombies. Will there be enough bits left from the zombies kit to convert the crypts ghouls into more zombies? 

Edited June 20, 2021 by Sigmarusvult

[JackStreicher]

I had a friendly game with my brother today. He fielded Nautilar Idoneth Deepkin

I played Kastelai.

[Spoiler]3.0VSBro.pdf

3.0 Rules, we both used a Warlord battalion.

it was a very balanced Game with a big brawl in the center unless only one Allopex, a Tidecaster, the Leviadon, Radukar, the Vamp Lord and the Zombie Dragon Lord were left.

My Blood Knights tanked half his army for two rounds up on the left flank and they survived with 2 Models though the Castelan was „Standing alone“ at some point, spiking his dice and killing the wounded Soulrender

 

ei%2DDolon.pdf

[Clewzy]

3 hours ago, Sigmarusvult said:

I am thinking of getting the FEC Start Collecting box and a box of zombies. Will there be enough bits left from the zombies kit to convert the crypts ghouls into more zombies? 

There maybe a couple of heads, some of the arms and the coffin remains. Not sure how they will fit with the scale of the ghouls

 

[Zeblasky]

Just came here to say, that Blood Knights, despite some claims, were very strong in AOS 2.0, but in 3.0 they will be definetly in need of some extra points in their cost, especially if you consider how many more MSUs will be in 3.0. They just do so much for such a low price in an army, that can support and heal them very well.

[Dusktiger]

8 hours ago, BoozedUp said:

You're right!  I knew that, too.  

I guess I would split the Grave Guard into min sized units of ten?  Or do you think having one unit of skellies at x20 and then using the reinforcement on the grave guard would be of better use of it?

well, i'd probably do this:

since you have 60 skellies and 20 GG, i'd arrange them as:

20 Skellies

20 skellies

20 skellies

20 GG

 

this way, its the exact same model count, you're now using 4/4 reinforcement points, and you gained an extra unit for securing objectives.

 

Or, if you know you're playing a objective-heavy battleplan, make the 3rd unit of skellies into 2 groups of 10 to camp near objectives if necessary.

[Frowny]

12 hours ago, Zeblasky said:

Just came here to say, that Blood Knights, despite some claims, were very strong in AOS 2.0, but in 3.0 they will be definetly in need of some extra points in their cost, especially if you consider how many more MSUs will be in 3.0. They just do so much for such a low price in an army, that can support and heal them very well.

Yes, this. Very reasonable profile that carries buffs well with one of the strongest abilities on any AOS warscroll, retreat and charge.

Mannfred + lots of blood knights +seasoning to taste will be winning tourneys shortly after the new edition is started up.

Edited June 21, 2021 by Frowny

[Doko]

Yes they are strongth but havent attack first or attack twice as every op melle unit

[JackStreicher]

6 hours ago, Zeblasky said:

Just came here to say, that Blood Knights, despite some claims, were very strong in AOS 2.0, but in 3.0 they will be definetly in need of some extra points in their cost, especially if you consider how many more MSUs will be in 3.0. They just do so much for such a low price in an army, that can support and heal them very well.

I disagree. I was able to keep my unit of 5 alive due to heavily investing CP: 3x All out Defence, 1x All out Attack, 2x Rally. You can barely heal them since they‘re not summonable.
 

Edit: They‘re comparable to Ishlean Guard. Once a enemy directs Mortal wounds at them they‘ll die.

Edited June 21, 2021 by JackStreicher

[Raptor_Jesues]

7 hours ago, Zeblasky said:

Just came here to say, that Blood Knights, despite some claims, were very strong in AOS 2.0, but in 3.0 they will be definetly in need of some extra points in their cost, especially if you consider how many more MSUs will be in 3.0. They just do so much for such a low price in an army, that can support and heal them very well.

i feel like they are a very minor problem in the game compared to all the ****** that should be nerfed first like most shooting, op magic etc

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

42 minutes ago, Raptor_Jesues said:

i feel like they are a very minor problem in the game compared to all the ****** that should be nerfed first like most shooting, op magic etc

I tend to agree. They are still very good, though. You could argue that Blood Knights are the best cavalry unit in the game right now. I imagine their points will go up slightly in the next adjustment, although they are quite managable right now.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

Here are some thoughts I have had on using bravery bombs in AoS 3:

Right off the bat 🦇: I think bravery bomb lists are still bad, but a bravery bomb unit might be able to do some work. I think building your whole list around bravery is not good because it's just too match up dependent. Worst case, you go up agains OBR and your bravery bombs just do nothing. But even outside of that extreme case, there are a lot of armies where hitting them with battleshock is just not that good.

However, if you can fit a bravery bomb into an otherwise normal list for cheap, it becomes a potentially very valuable tool. Some units absolutely hate being hit with battleshock. In general, these a will be multi-wound elite units like Blightkings, Ogors or Stormcast. Putting a unit into your list to potentially mess up those units as a best-case is probably worth it, even if the worst-case of your opponent just being battleshock immune across the board is pretty bad.

There are actually not a lot of options in Gravelords that really interact with bravery. Legion of Blood is a stand out, making an extra 1d3 models flee if your opponent suffers battleshock. The Soul-Crushing Contempt command trait (-1 bravery aura) is also found in this lineage. Other than that, there is the Coven Throne spell, which checks against bravery and makes the opponent unable to attack if they fail, and the spell Spirit Gale from the Lore of Vampires, which makes you roll 2d6 and deal mortal wounds equal to how much you beat to the opponent's bravery by. Of course, Gravelords also get -1 to bravery for each Deathrattle and Deadwalker unit within 3 of an opponent (up to -2) and there is now the option of including the Horrorghast endless spell to turn off Inspiring Presence and make an additional 1d3 units flee from battleshock.

I think there is one fairly nice combo you can consider for Legion of Blood, which is a Wight King on Steed with Soul-Crushing Contempt and a unit of Black Knights. The Wight King is Deathrattle, so if you get him an the Black Knights into an opponent, that's -3 bravery right there. The Black Knight mortals on charge help with getting in those extra wounds to trigger battleshock. Against Bravery 7, even one model dying will result losses to battleshock for the opponent 50% of the time, which will result in at least two models fleeing.

This combo is just 250 points, so it does not break the bank. It requires the Wight King to be general, but that's not the worst option in a Legion of Blood list, because you might well want to make Grave Guard battleline. You can spend another 65 points to bring the Horrorghast to make this combo more reliable and potent, but you will need a wizard nearby to use it (or make the Wight King a wizard).

Overall, I think this is a fairly nice use for a min-size unit of Black Knights and the Wight King. I would not feel bad running it in a Legion of Blood list.

[Raptor_Jesues]

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I tend to agree. They are still very good, though. You could argue that Blood Knights are the best cavalry unit in the game right now. I imagine their points will go up slightly in the next adjustment, although they are quite managable right now.

oh yeah, they are very ****** good, expecially for how hard they are to kill (they can also hit very hard but it requires investment in both list building and CPs) but also yes, there are ways around. Mortal wounds do them dirty for example

[Liquidsteel]

That's interesting for sure, I'm in the process of building my start collecting to get the Wight King and Grave Guard ready.

Had some good success with 20 x GG with Great Weapons (they killed an Archaon with Mannfred's buff + wounds triumph but no extra attacks or fight twice) and wanting to use more of them, already planning several lists with the Wight King as the General.

I'm still not totally sold on the Black Knights but I do want another cheap throwaway unit and already have 5 painted with another 5 on sprue. Being battleline in LoB does change things for them.

We'll see. Might be worth investing in a Horrorghast though!

[Raptor_Jesues]

1 minute ago, Liquidsteel said:

That's interesting for sure, I'm in the process of building my start collecting to get the Wight King and Grave Guard ready.

Had some good success with 20 x GG with Great Weapons (they killed an Archaon with Mannfred's buff + wounds triumph but no extra attacks or fight twice) and wanting to use more of them, already planning several lists with the Wight King as the General.

I'm still not totally sold on the Black Knights but I do want another cheap throwaway unit and already have 5 painted with another 5 on sprue. Being battleline in LoB does change things for them.

We'll see. Might be worth investing in a Horrorghast though!

yes, you pretty much need the horrorghast if you want to try that.  On the other hand after a GG round of hitting there could be not many enemies left to run away

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

8 minutes ago, Liquidsteel said:

That's interesting for sure, I'm in the process of building my start collecting to get the Wight King and Grave Guard ready.

Had some good success with 20 x GG with Great Weapons (they killed an Archaon with Mannfred's buff + wounds triumph but no extra attacks or fight twice) and wanting to use more of them, already planning several lists with the Wight King as the General.

I'm still not totally sold on the Black Knights but I do want another cheap throwaway unit and already have 5 painted with another 5 on sprue. Being battleline in LoB does change things for them.

We'll see. Might be worth investing in a Horrorghast though!

I think we have still not seen all the new battleplans, but if most of them have 18" deployment gaps, Black Knights can get the charge turn 1 guaranteed.

In that case, I think they are worth taking, because they act as a little disincentive for the opponent to force you to take turn 1. Even if the Black Knights only slow down the opponent for a turn before they die and do a little chip damage, running a unit that is likely to die very early in the game is actually pretty nice, because it guarantees that you will always have a unit to bring back with Endless Legions.

Personally, I'd love to run Black Knights. I ran them all the time in Legions of Nagash, where you could make them reliably charge up to 25" away turn 1. If things work out so that they can charge the enemy in their deployment zone again in AoS 3, I'll start putting them in my lists again. I think that niche is good enough.

[JackStreicher]

Black Knight are still too expensive. At 100 points they might we worth their weight.
 

[Raptor_Jesues]

21 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Black Knight are still too expensive. At 100 points they might we worth their weight.
 

and that is being quite generous

[Liquidsteel]

Indeed, points are at a premium this edition, I'd rather have 10 more Grave Guard (more or less).

I've also picked up some Fell Bats, which at 75 points could be better than expected.

Retreat and charge, be annoying, and crucially mess with Unleash Hell.

[Frowny]

3 hours ago, Raptor_Jesues said:

 Mortal wounds do them dirty for example

This is a very weak answer. Mortal wounds do most things dirty, and few armies can use them on all targets. And actually for their points they do ok against Mortal wounds. The same mortal wounds that would kill 5 blood knights would also kill mannfred/ neferata, an avengori lord or a VLoZD, all of whom cost a lot more. And if they are putting them into your blood knights they aren't putting them Into other targets. It is also pretty easy to take 4 units of them, making it very hard to mortal wound them all down.

TLDR-they are plenty sturdy against Mortal wounds for their cost.

[Warbossironteef]

Building towards this list. It's a hero smash and casting list. Two things I think will be super strong in AOS3. Rerolling casts for all vampires is just so busted. You can fish for 9+ if you really want to. It's such a powerful ability. I'll give the +1 dmg core spell to my wizards. It means next to cogs, Prince Vhordrai can give himself +6 to move and +1 dmg to his lance. If you charge, you're at -3 rend flat 5 dmg. Yes sir.

I'm new to this army, but any feedback?

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Lineage: Vyrkos Dynasty
LEADERS
Prince Vhordrai (455)
- Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine Pinions
Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (435) - GENERAL 
- +5 Ward save artefact
- Command Trait: Hunter's Snare
- Death Lance
- Lore of the Vampires: Amaranthine Orb
Belladamma Volga, First of the Vyrkos (200)
- Lore of the Vampires: Blades of Shyish (not sure about this spell) 
Necromancer (125)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Spectral Grasp
UNITS
40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230)
40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230)
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115)
1 x Corpse Cart with Balefire Brazier (80)
ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTS
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Cogs (45)
TOTAL: 1985/2000 WOUNDS: 148

Edited June 21, 2021 by Warbossironteef

[El Syf]

9 minutes ago, Warbossironteef said:

Building towards this list. It's a hero smash and casting list. Two things I think will be super strong in AOS3. Rerolling casts for all vampires is just so busted. You can fish for 9+ if you really want to. It's such a powerful ability. I'll give the +1 dmg core spell to my wizards. It means next to cogs, Prince Vhordrai can give himself +6 to move and +1 dmg to his lance. If you charge, you're at -3 rend flat 5 dmg. Yes sir.

I'm new to this army, but any feedback?

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Lineage: Vyrkos Dynasty
LEADERS
Prince Vhordrai (455)
- Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine Pinions
Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (435) - GENERAL 
- +5 Ward save artefact
- Command Trait: Hunter's Snare
- Death Lance
- Lore of the Vampires: Amaranthine Orb
Belladamma Volga, First of the Vyrkos (200)
- Lore of the Vampires: Blades of Shyish (not sure about this spell) 
Necromancer (125)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Spectral Grasp
UNITS
40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230)
40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230)
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115)
1 x Corpse Cart with Balefire Brazier (80)
ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTS
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Cogs (45)
TOTAL: 1985/2000 WOUNDS: 148

There's so much stuff with the new edition I haven't even got my head round yet, +1 damage spell on Vhordrai  on the charge makes our MVP for my money.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 hour ago, JackStreicher said:

Black Knight are still too expensive. At 100 points they might we worth their weight.
 

I'll solidly run a min-size unit at 100 I think. But for now I am happy to have found even one obscure edge-case where they and the Wight King could maybe be considered worth it.

Although if and 18" deployment gap is the norm in AoS 3, I think they have a solid niche as a revivable unit that can reliably make a turn 1 charge. Fell Bats, Dire Wolves and Vargheists can't play that role.

[Liquidsteel]

2 hours ago, El Syf said:

There's so much stuff with the new edition I haven't even got my head round yet, +1 damage spell on Vhordrai  on the charge makes our MVP for my money.

How is Vhordrai getting +1 damage outside of Kastelai?

My understanding is that Vhordrai cannot take the Flaming Weapon spell as he is a named character?

[Warbossironteef]

17 minutes ago, Liquidsteel said:

How is Vhordrai getting +1 damage outside of Kastelai?

My understanding is that Vhordrai cannot take the Flaming Weapon spell as he is a named character?

You are correct. I forgot about that. Well it still boosts the Vampire Lord! Still good.

[stus67]

What's a solid kastelai core looking like right now? Prince V with a VLoZD buddy and 3 units of x5 Blood Knights? I'm building this army from scratch so I'm looking at what to buy next and kastelai with blood knights seems the most interesting to me. Vyrkos comes in close second.

I already have one unit of Blood Knights and 20 skeletons currently, and I bought a few of the vyrkos characters just cause they look cool, but Radukar seems to be pretty useful regardless of the clan you take.

Edited June 21, 2021 by stus67