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AoS2 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion


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The Crimson Templars 

I mean... I don't know how you would win with this besides just hyper aggression, but... (Avengorii Dynasty) Nagash + 3 Zombie Dragons + Umbral Spellportal = 1930 points

Finished my corpsecart for a painting competition  Do you think it's any good?    

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Still don't have my copy, as in my excitement I only entered half my post code! It's sorted now, just delayed the arrival a bit. Still think we might get Lumineth treatment but I'll keep quiet about that from now on. :)

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I'm just desperate to try out belladama and radukar on Tabletop Sim but no one is making the models and I have no idea how lol...

I've tried multiple lists other than the Vyrkos though and all have performed a lot better than my previous legions. Really enjoying the new book and rules.

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6 minutes ago, Ghoooouls said:

I've tried multiple lists other than the Vyrkos though and all have performed a lot better than my previous legions. Really enjoying the new book and rules.

Have any specifics?  Could be useful for those of us who are wondering what we've got in store for our armies 😊

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Now that we have this dedicated thread it means we have a great place to discuss the new black knight meta, right? ...right?

 

Anyway.... in terms of Avengorii looking over the warscrolls I'm definitely thinking that the Zombie Dragon just isn't great without a rider compared to the terrorgheist since it still has its potentially 6 mortal wound bite attack. Are there any situations where having a regular zombie dragon stomping around might actually be better? I know it gets lots more claw attacks and its breath will do more than the shriek against high bravery enemies but I'm not sure if they're enough to justify taking one over the terrorgheist for a monster mash.

 

Also I have to say one of my favourite things about the anvil of blood (which is now officially out in white dwarf for anyone who wanted it but didn't know when it was coming out!) is that the Vengorian lords nightmare ability is in it, it's a nice little touch for people who want to make custom vengorians.

 

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8 minutes ago, Lightbox said:

 

Anyway.... in terms of Avengorii looking over the warscrolls I'm definitely thinking that the Zombie Dragon just isn't great without a rider compared to the terrorgheist since it still has its potentially 6 mortal wound bite attack. Are there any situations where having a regular zombie dragon stomping around might actually be better? I know it gets lots more claw attacks and its breath will do more than the shriek against high bravery enemies but I'm not sure if they're enough to justify taking one over the terrorgheist for a monster mash.

 

This is also what I would like to discuss, having only ever faced Terrorgheists on the battlefield I know how dangerous they can be. I'm leaning towards Terrorgheists but would certainly like to know the merits of Zombie Dragons.

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Posted (edited)

I've decided to just play SbG hard mode with my black knights in Legion of Night. Going to use them as overpriced alpha strike D3 MW seeker missles that hopefully hold enemy units up for a turn or two allowing GG to come out of the grave and get in position. +1 to save/-1 to wound in round 1 will help with that role. Van Hels goes off on a 4+ and cogs becomes much more manageable at a 5+ to cast and makes charging from ambush more consistent. Once units are in place switch cogs to defensive mode for +1 to save/+1 spell on Necromancer enhancing his ability to support Skeletons or GG with Overwhelming Dread and Van Hels.

The list:
Legion of Night 
Prince Vhordrai                  455
     -A. Pinions
Wight King                          130
     -General: -1 to wound or +2 to charge
Necromancer                      125 
     -Artifact: +2 to cast aura 
     -Overwhelming Dread 
x30 Skeletons                     255
x20 Grave Guard                280 
x20 Grave Guard                280 
x5 Black Knights                 120 
x5 Black Knights                 120 
x5 Black Knights                 120 
Chronomantic Cogs            80

Total:                                    1965

Edited by Verminlord
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27 minutes ago, DJMoose said:

having only ever faced Terrorgheists on the battlefield I know how dangerous they can be

Coming over to Soulblight from FEC one thing I would note is that if your experience is coming against FEC’s version, particularly the AGKonRT variety that could take the Gruesome Bite Mount Trait the basic Terrorgheist isn’t going to be as fearsome (if that’s what you’ve been playing against than you know that doesn’t mean wimpy, just that w/out rerolls and potential extra attacks from Archregent spell the risk of getting hit with 6MWs goes way down).  Where I leaned heavy into RTs in Gristelgore I am finding myself far more agnostic in Avengorii between the two choices and I am likely to settle on one of each.

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@DJMoose@Lightbox

 

The weighted offensive efficiency of the Terrorgheist in melee is .0456 vs. .0407 for the Zombie Dragon. That said, the Terrorgheist benefits more from extra attacks while the Zombie Dragon benefits more from bonuses to hit and wound.

With +1 hit and wound the Zombie Dragon melee efficiency jumps to .0659 while the Terrorgheist only goes up to .0644.

With +1 attack the Zombie Dragon goes up to .0503 while the Terrorghiest reaches .0598.

With both buffs the Zombie Dragon ends up at .0838 and the Terrorghiest at .0843.

The Zombie Dragon is of course a little more efficient on defense while the Terrorgheist deals extra damage when it dies.

Comparing the ranged attacks is a little harder.

Against 1-3 models targets, the Terrorgheist is better against any target with bravery 7 or less, although the two are very close against bravery 8 if the target has a 2+ save.

Against a 4+ model target the Terrorgheist is better against bravery 6 or less and a 4+ save. Against a 3+ or better save the Terrorgheist is better against bravery 7 or less.

The Zombie Dragon is also a little bit more efficient on defense.

 

Overall, I think that in a vacuum the Terrorgheist is probably better although it's damage is less consistent. It's going to be more "feast or famine" than the Zombie Dragon.

If you are bringing Radukar, then Terrorgheists win pretty clearly. Similarly, if you are bringing a Coven Throne or Mannfred then the Zombie Dragon is likely better.

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The threat of a terrorgheist can mess with people for sure, though I think being 10 points cheaper and having a more reliable damage output is serious consideration for the Zombie Dragon.

It's a tough call, I think I'd take the Terrorgheist if I had the option but its not clear cut. 

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I'm not 100% sure about the new summoning. Can someone please confirm how much we can summon back?

3 models with the invigorating aura spell

d3 models with the deathly invocation ability

 so is it a max of 3+d3 = 4-6 models per unit? and no unit can benefit from these even from separate sources? Seems pretty bad

Also did you guys notice we don't have any defense against shooting? I like skeletons coming back on 4+ after they've been destroyed but thats just only in the fight phase.

 

 

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19 minutes ago, BoneHeart said:

I'm not 100% sure about the new summoning. Can someone please confirm how much we can summon back?

3 models with the invigorating aura spell

d3 models with the deathly invocation ability

 so is it a max of 3+d3 = 4-6 models per unit? and no unit can benefit from these even from separate sources? Seems pretty bad

Also did you guys notice we don't have any defense against shooting? I like skeletons coming back on 4+ after they've been destroyed but thats just only in the fight phase.

 

 

It was one of the first things I noticed when the leak dropped since I used to play Legion of Sacrament.  They had some respectable defenses against shooting, and now I am fairly certain that most of our defensive buffs (-1 to hits, wounds, etc) are against melee attacks only.  People are hoping for 3.0 to save us a bit, but in the current meta of shooting, they managed to make us even weaker in the phase we don't get to participate in already.

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18 minutes ago, BoneHeart said:

I'm not 100% sure about the new summoning. Can someone please confirm how much we can summon back?

3 models with the invigorating aura spell

d3 models with the deathly invocation ability

 so is it a max of 3+d3 = 4-6 models per unit? and no unit can benefit from these even from separate sources? Seems pretty bad

Also did you guys notice we don't have any defense against shooting? I like skeletons coming back on 4+ after they've been destroyed but thats just only in the fight phase.

 

 

Yes I believe that is correct. One thing to consider is that Skeletons and Zombies have built in regeneration too, although it isn't as easy as it once was in LoN.

The lack of shooting on our end or defense against shooting does suck, but I'm hoping 3.0 changes to help defend against shooting. Either more terrain, or terrain rules that block LoS, or a rule similar to 40k when it comes to trying to target a Hero.

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1 minute ago, BaylorCorvette said:

The lack of shooting on our end or defense against shooting does suck, but I'm hoping 3.0 changes to help defend against shooting. Either more terrain, or terrain rules that block LoS, or a rule similar to 40k when it comes to trying to target a Hero.

Personally, I don't mind having a weakness against shooting, but only if it is an actual weakness and not an auto-loss. So I hope that shooting is easier to manage in AoS even without access to shooting of your own or specific anti-shooting tech.

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This is purely lore question but how do vampires of Avengorii dynasty fly?

They do have wings but their body looks far too large and their wing muscles too thin to take them to skies.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Sorrow said:

This is purely lore question but how do vampires of Avengorii dynasty fly?

They do have wings but their body looks far too large and their wing muscles too thin to take them to skies.

Almost every fantasy creature that can fly would be completely incapable of getting off the ground in real life. There's a reason birds have hollow bones.

Avengorii fly the same way Stardrakes or Zombie Dragons or Terrorgheists, or Pheonixes, or Bloodthirsters, or Plague Drones do: Magic.

Edited by Fred1245
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Just now, Fred1245 said:

Almost every fantasy creature that can fly would be completely incapable of getting off the ground in real life. There's a reason birds have hollow bones.

Avengorii fly the same way Stardrakes or Zombie Dragons or Terrorgheists, or Pheonixes, or Bloodthirsters, or Plague Drones do: Magic.

I knew the stupidity of my question before posting but still...it would be cool to have some lore reason. They have centaur like bodies, which would greatly lower their change of flying.

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Just now, Fred1245 said:

Almost every fantasy creature that can fly would be completely incapable of getting off the ground in real life. There's a reason birds have hollow bones.

Avengorii fly the same way Statdrakes or Zombie Dragons or Terrorgheists, or Pheonixes, or Bloodthirsters, or Plague Drones do: Magic.

Was about to say, while a lot of things look cool, and like they "are plausible", most of these creatures would be unable to fly without the aid of magic, or just plain suspension of disbelief.  Like the Zombie Dragons and Terrorists alone, their wingspan is actually much too small for a creature of their torso size, ignoring the fact that their wings are modeled to be extremely damaged and wouldn't be able to catch enough air to generate enough lift.

So yea.  Magic, or just don't think about it too hard.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, brattenbergus said:

Was thinking of starting an Avengorii Dynasty army. So wanted to be sure about one thing: The FEC Start Collecting Box, do you get all the bits to build Vargheists and VLoZD/Prince V? 

Thanks! 

Yep. The FEC Start Collecting has vargheists and the entire Terrorgheist/Zombie Dragon/VLoZD kit.

Edited by DJMoose
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6 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

Have any specifics?  Could be useful for those of us who are wondering what we've got in store for our armies 😊

Sure! I can't remember the exact armies as I've done a fair few on TTS now...

Usually will consist of at least one unit of 40 zombies, or at least 2x 20 and a pack of wolves for battleline. I have also used 20 grave guard (both with S+S and with great weapon) and I have to say I prefer the great weapon. 4+ save is nice, but when people want to kill them, they will kill them. The extra damage of the great weapon means they require less support and buffing. My 20 with great weapons took a round of magic from a magic heavy Tzeentch list, got some lucky ward saves and 14 of them just with +1 attack from a vampire managed to easily kill 20 marauders and then the next turn killed a mutalith vortex beast. I worked out that the same rolls I made for the marauders would have left some alive which could have blocked me up for another round etc. I dunno from my experience I prefer the damage 2 just for guaranteed nukes.

The stand out units for me that i've tried are grave guard, blood knights and the mortarchs. Grave guard just nuke anything they come across most of the time but, pretty obviously, are quite slow. Blood knights seem to perform WAY better than before. The 3+ save is really, really noticeable and with neferata's spell or even just mystic shield they are a pain for the opponent to remove, and if they don't remove them, they are gonna get killed by them.

I've played with LoB, LoN, Avengorri and Kastellai so far. LoB: Neferata is a beast. Like seriously she is so good now, i'd have been happy with just the 12 wounds and 3+ save, but her spell only ignoring negative modifiers now, the healing d6 from killing anything, and the 5+ hero kill with her dagger is huge. Her with a unit of blood knights popping her command and trying to get her spell off were really good fun to use.

LoN: Mannfred is another kind of animal now as well. Again, like Nef, I'd take 12 wounds 3+ save and the change to his armour (ignore each phase instead of 1 each turn), but He has been hulked up as well. Disregarding the obviously powerful teleport ability, he can deal some steady damage like before, but his spell is SO much better now. I ran him with a corpse cart and mortis as well as a necro with the claw for a total of +4 to cast so he had no trouble forcing magic through and it was great fun knowing you can also charge him in safely as well. His spell coupled with the mortis shooting was really cool to use. Deepstriking is great as well, but in this battle I didn't really use it as my opponent screened too well.

Kastellai: Probably my favourite. Its just so fun levelling up all your vampires in-game. The vengorian lord really shone through, for his points i think he is really powerful. I gave him the trait/item combo of getting the vampire level-up buffs when something within 6 inches dies, and he just followed some blood knights around helping them out and levelling up himself even if he didnt kill. Pinions with him is insane because he most likely runs and charges for the first half of the battle, so 18 inch move, run and charge can get him across the board with ease. Again, like with nef manny and the blood knights, his 3+ save really shone through in this battle, coupled with the ward save and the hunger as well as his inbuilt -1 rend, these guys can take a hit pretty well.

Avengorri: Lauka Vai is just a better vengorian really, without the option of the items and traits obviously, but she has some cool ones built in. The 5+ mortal thing on the charge is pretty cool and adds to her character, only got about 4 mortals with it but still, mortals are mortals. She's a beast in combat and just like the vengorian, relatively tanky. Her spell is very situational but really cool. If she gets it off you can be really aggressive with her as anyone that wants to charge her gets their charge halved. Also gave her the pinions and she was zooming around the board.

I also just love zombies now, they can hold objectives relatively well with d3+3 coming back each round with a 6+ ward and the 6" pile in threat. If in combat I would just retreat them in my turn 3.1 inches away, attack with all my other stuff and then pile them in at the end so they got to attack first before the unit they were 'in combat' with. It's good fun and makes movement for your opponent tricky as they have a surprisingly large threat bubble. 

I may be just stating the obvious with all this, but my main takeaways so far is that on paper, a lot of the stuff seemed quite cool, in practice i've found it really fun and really effective. The army feels less reliant on support heroes now. It feels like your opponent has a lot more to worry about as well, and so may not just target the heroes. Zombies can be a threat, grave guard are insane, blood knights are great, even dire wolves on the charge aren't to be shrugged at especially with buffs such as van hels or whatever. It feels like an army that has a lot of possibilities and a lot of valid choices. When I played Legions of Nagash I found that I was way too reliant on my heroes, whereas now that isn't really the case. One huge thing is the grave sites giving the ward save, this is seriously good. If placed correctly, you can cover all the board you will need for the whole battle to give your entire army the 6+ ward, alongside heroes giving the bubble. I have to say though, in all my battles, I have yet to return a unit at half strength through our allegiance ability. It just doesnt happen for me. If it was each battleshock phase maybe, but only on our turn and 5+ unless you destroy enemy units in our turn, just didn't seem to happen much. When I destroyed a lot to make the roll easy, I had no summonable units that were dead yet anyway.

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9 hours ago, BoneHeart said:

Also did you guys notice we don't have any defense against shooting?

This is one reason why I think Belladamma Volga is going to be very popular in competitive lists, especially when combined with spellportal. Spells that turn enemy models into summoned friendlies are extremely good against shooting. I've been on the receiving end of Kairos's spell that summons a spawn if it kills one of your models enough times to know how annoying it is. Set up your Dire Wolves at like 2.9" and ensure that they can only minimally pile into you. If you can drop them on the other side of a wall or something then it's even better as you not only lock them in combat but block their line of sight. Best case scenario you prevent their unit from shooting you for a turn, and worst case scenario you force them to use a different unit's ranged attacks to free up the unit that you've tied down.

Other than that just having a lot of stuff that you can get into your opponent's face quickly is a good way of dealing with shooting. If anything I think the new tome is more resilient against shooting than LoN was given that the new rules aren't nearly as reliant on the general.

 

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