Black knights any use?

[Gothmaug]

So for all of us that have a bunch of these kicking around from the previous edition, does anyone see a good use for them? All I can think of is running minimum sized units and using them as quick screens or objective grabbers. 
 

Hmm what about waves of suicide chaff with mortal wounds? I also guess a MSU still deals 1d3 mortals on the charge. And as a summonable unit you could bring back half on a 4+. Now you have two knights that do 1d3 on a charge. Bring them back on a 4+ and you get 1 knight that can charge again. 

[Sception]

120 points is a fair bit to pay for a single use d3 mortal wounds missile that you can maybe reuse once or twice later in the game, but only if you roll well, and even then only if you don't have a better option for revival.

[Macarian]

I guess for filling out your battleline with 3 min-sized units in an all mounted Legion of Blood list? Get the maximum Bravery debuffs from turn 1? 

Depends on how strong a Bravery based tactic is going to be I guess. 

Ultimately though if you want an all mounted list I would advise playing Blood Knights in Kastelai with a big brick of infantry to re-summon in support.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

I can't tell you what their role is, but I can tell you a few things that are not it.

Fast hammer: Blood Knights fill that role. But even if you wanted a more budget unit for the job: 5 Black Knights do the same damage on the charge as 10 Direwolves. And those are also way better in other ways. And really, Black Knights don't even do good damage by any measure...

Fast screen/anvil/tarpit: Direwolves just do it way better, and are battleline.

Harrassment/skirmishing unit: Both Vargheists and Dire Bats do it better.

The best use I have found yet is if you are in Legion of Blood and really just want 10 direwolves to fill battleline, but are 15 points short. 😉

[Darnok]

26 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

5 Black Knights do the same damage on the charge as 10 Direwolves

I guess a case could be made for the smaller footprint of 5 BK against 10 DW. You can fit double the amount of BK in the room of DW. BK are also easier to hide and easier to keep inside of whatever aura effect you want to apply. And those few mortal wounds might not be a massive game changer, but it is something the DW do not provide.

Having said all that from a perspective of "I really want them to be somewhat useful".

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

4 minutes ago, Darnok said:

I guess a case could be made for the smaller footprint of 5 BK against 10 DW. You can fit double the amount of BK in the room of DW. BK are also easier to hide and easier to keep inside of whatever aura effect you want to apply. And those few mortal wounds might not be a massive game changer, but it is something the DW do not provide.

Having said all that from a perspective of "I really want them to be somewhat useful".

Sure, all of that is true. But at some point the niche Black Knights fill just gets so extremely specialized. How often do you really want the damage of a unit of dire wolves, but condensed into 5 models?

That said, I am also still planning to give those guys a try some time. I have 10 of them lying around. I would just feel a lot better about them if they had rend -1, a 4+ save or run and charge.

[Aturox]

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Sure, all of that is true. But at some point the niche Black Knights fill just gets so extremely specialized. How often do you really want the damage of a unit of dire wolves, but condensed into 5 models?

That said, I am also still planning to give those guys a try some time. I have 10 of them lying around. I would just feel a lot better about them if they had rend -1, a 4+ save or run and charge.

I have 10 of them and its kinda annoying that they are in the start collecting aswell Maybe they get some adjustments in the future but i doubt it..

There were so many options to make them viable or fill a specific niche but this way they are kinda sad. Maybe there is a way to stack the mortals on impact or they forgot to mention it. You can only hope

Edited May 22, 2021 by Aturox

[AlphaKennyThing]

I'm gonna find a way to use them, as I don't often play competitively. I reckon they'll get reduced in points pretty quick when people keep putting 1/3 of the Start Collecting box in the bin.

I really think they should have had the stats of mounted Grave Guard, because that's literally what the models are when you look at their armour.

Barrow Lance 4+/3+/-1/1

Deathly Charge: Add 1 to the rend and damage characteristics of this unit's Barrow Lances in the Fight Phase if the unit made a charge move in the same turn.

120pts would be acceptable then.

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

I think if the points gap becomes bigger between Black Knights and Dire Wolves, then Black Knights become worthwhile. Hopefully we see a 15-20 pt or so drop on Black Knights, which would make them a decent alternate choice.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

14 minutes ago, RocketPropelledGrenade said:

I think if the points gap becomes bigger between Black Knights and Dire Wolves, then Black Knights become worthwhile. Hopefully we see a 15-20 pt or so drop on Black Knights, which would make them a decent alternate choice.

I'd play them at 100, I think. But even then, the competition from Direwolves is stiff. I could see it in a Legion of Blood list, though.

[Lich King]

Points reduction needed - however they do gain the nice buffs from Legion of Blood - since that’ll  be deathrattle only. 

Edited May 22, 2021 by Lich King

[Darnok]

The true shame is that they are so damn thematic. Black Knights deserve a proper place in this army. I hope they get fixed by a GHB asap.

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

4 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I'd play them at 100, I think. But even then, the competition from Direwolves is stiff. I could see it in a Legion of Blood list, though.

That's about where I'm at, yeah. Fortunately, I really like Legion of Blood, so they are easier to make appealing to me.

[Doko]

If you have many of those and dont want spend more money getting dogs  then you can use them.

They are a great mini but the rules are useless,5 save for a cavalry of 120 points that does 0 damage dont make sense,my wild riders cost 120 too and have 5 save but his weapon have rend 2 in charge so it is good damage with bad save.

Other example dark elfs cold ones cost around the same and have also poor damage but have save 3,so they are tanks

These bk are bad damage with bad save dont makes sense. They need double damage or better save to have any option

[Gothmaug]

Thanks for the cometary everyone. I love the models, just hate to see them so weak. Though I guess it’s probably a power move to sell more blood nights. As an old kit that people already have, If black knights were still viable there would be less impetus to buy the new blood Calvary sculpts.

[BoneHeart]

4 hours ago, Gothmaug said:

Thanks for the cometary everyone. I love the models, just hate to see them so weak. Though I guess it’s probably a power move to sell more blood nights. As an old kit that people already have, If black knights were still viable there would be less impetus to buy the new blood Calvary sculpts.

I'm hoping the errata will include the shields in their save and they'll get at least their dmg 2 back

[Honk]

1 hour ago, BoneHeart said:

I'm hoping the errata will include

Now that’s a line that gets dropped far to often for a book, that kinda was supposed to be release a couple of month earlier...

but maybe all this small „wait a sec, wasn’t this a bit better, isn’t there something missing“ moments are well thought out adjustments 🥳.

From what I heard so far the book is fun to play...still waiting for mine 🥶

or

Rule guy got crushed by the deathmarch list from ianob and so two years later they get the well deserved nerf 😒more likely

[Doko]

Im sorry but with city ofsigmar many units lost weapons,shields or armor!!!

Ironbreakers lost hist gromrill armor that ignored rend and got nothing back 

Wild ryders lost his +1save of shield and didnt was faq.

 

So i dont have hopes in black knigths getting his weapon or shield back with the faq

[Honk]

I also don’t think there will be warscroll adjustments...

The new role/use of black knights needs to be determined... maybe they are out in WAAC-Games, but so is probably 75% of any given book.

my real hope is for a nice twist for AoS 3.0 and then two/three calm years, after all the broken realms 

[Cronotekk]

Is it just me or does it seem like most of the deathrattle units have mistakes? Black knights and skeletons dont even benefit from shields anymore and the wight king command ability does nothing

[Honk]

10 minutes ago, Cronotekk said:

most of the deathrattle units have mistakes?

For black knights I think it is really sad, for skellis, with rend everywhere, might as well scratch the stupid shield, still a bit sad...

the wightking CA is a secret wrapped in mystery, especially since the model is pretty cool

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

16 hours ago, Cronotekk said:

Is it just me or does it seem like most of the deathrattle units have mistakes? Black knights and skeletons dont even benefit from shields anymore and the wight king command ability does nothing

On most Deathrattle warscrolls, the shield's "+1 to saves against rend -1" was just traded in for an unconditional +1 to saves. And that +1 to saves is already factored into the save characteristic. Which is what you want: If in AoS 3 bonuses to saves are capped at +1, you want a high base save, not a save bonus already on the warscroll which would preclude you from getting other save bonuses.

[Sception]

5 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

On most Deathrattle warscrolls, the shield's "+1 to saves against rend -1" was just traded in for an unconditional +1 to saves. And that +1 to saves is already factored into the save characteristic. Which is what you want: If in AoS 3 bonuses to saves are capped at +1, you want a high base save, not a save bonus already on the warscroll which would preclude you from getting other save bonuses.

Although in this case the grave guard shields will become fundamentally /worse/ than those of other deathrattle units.  Either way it's awkward that they don't work the same way.

[Greybeard86]

I was hoping they would have some use. I wanted to do a Bret/black knight conversion for a Mousillon themed army.

Although I guess that, if it comes down to it, I could roll them as Blood Knights...

[Raptor_Jesues]

paint em red and use them as bloodknights