The Cursed City situation

[zilberfrid]

1 hour ago, Greybeard86 said:

Admech is crazy bad point/$. Also, admech is really good on the table, and some of the top performers in the faction have the worst point/$ (chicken walkers, doggos). The new release lowers point costs for admech. How is that good for the hobby?

Or the whole radukar at 160$ bucks thing, which is just nuts.  All of this is coming from the same place, market dominance. Although I could get radukar for 10$ if I wanted to, and the whole court at less than a third of the price. The whole cursed city debacle and the subsequent pricing will likely push some people in the direction of "3rd party" and "3d printing", but so far it seems that GW can stomach that and still come on top.

Hmm, so Admech are current meta and the things I like best are really good? That's a good thing, come 10th, they'll probably be flooding ebay when both are no longer the case.

[Mcthew]

So how does everyone feel about the new AoS 3.0 release? Obviously it won't be like the debacle of Cursed City or Kill Team release/massive hikes, but is GW in a good spot at the moment to be trusted, given what's happened so far with Cursed City?

I must confess I feel less excited and more anxious about GW releases these days. I don't worry for GW as such (GW are in many ways like Apple and Electronic Arts - they like to be customer focused but their business methods are aggresive). I'm concerned about the money and time invested in a hobby that feels almost exploited. And at times incompetently.

The problems with Cursed City, LRL, the weirdest (and not in a good way) new sculpts, and rubbish faction rules have put AoS almost back to the bad days of AoS 1.0, IMO.

I just don't feel that AoS 3.0 is in good hands. The new Soulblight book was very underwhelming tbh. Not a good sign.

So, would I trust GW to bring out a new boxset for my favourite hobby that's fairly priced, that won't run out of stock months before it is released, and for all their communications to be altered or redacted later? Not really.

I'm not given to conspiracy theories or too much negativity, but I don't hold a lot of faith for this new release. Hopefully they will prove us all wrong. I reckon I will buy the new AoS 3.0 set, but if it is badly priced or badly written, then that will be time for me.

Not just for AoS but for GW.

Edited May 24, 2021 by Mcthew

[Greybeard86]

Personally, I have detached myself from GW's release schedule and, to an extent, rules.

I keep an eye out for some new releases, but I already have a large pile of shame. If they start unbalancing the game too much, I stop playing. If they price to highly, I don't buy or look for alternatives (2nd hand or others).

I realize this is easier for me because, atm, I am mostly hobby oriented. But I think that in order to prevent some of the super aggressive pricing and rule pushing, we all have to take a step back and a deep breath before we decide whether to buy or play by their rules.

[RexHavoc]

16 minutes ago, Mcthew said:

So how does everyone feel about the new AoS 3.0 release? Obviously it won't be like the debacle of Cursed City or Kill Team release/massive hikes, but is GW in a good spot at the moment to be trusted, given what's happened so far with Cursed City?

I must confess I feel less excited and more anxious about GW releases these days. I don't worry for GW as such (GW are in many ways like Apple and Electronic Arts - they like to be customer focused but their business methods are aggresive). I'm concerned about the money and time invested in a hobby that feels almost exploited. And at times incompetently.

The problems with Cursed City, LRL, the weirdest (and not in a good way) new sculpts, and rubbish faction rules have put AoS almost back to the bad days of AoS 1.0, IMO.

I just don't feel that AoS 3.0 is in good hands. The new Soulblight book was very underwhelming tbh. Not a good sign.

So, would I trust GW to bring out a new boxset for my favourite hobby that's fairly priced, that won't run out of stock months before it is released, and for all their communications to be altered or redacted later? Not really.

I'm not given to conspiracy theories or too much negativity, but I don't hold a lot of faith for this new release. Hopefully they will prove us all wrong. I reckon I will buy the new AoS 3.0 set, but if it is badly priced or badly written, then that will be time for me.

Not just for AoS but for GW.

The trick is to split the hobby and the company. Don't treat warhammer as a complete package, even though that is how GW want us to view it. Treat it like any other model/hobby company. Buy the models you like, use them in the rule set you like and with people that you like.

Now, when ever I make this comment there is always someone that pulls up the most ridiculous reasons as to why they can't do this. And most of the things they come up with, have very simple fixes. But I don't argue with these points any more, as usually its people that are insistent on keeping the hobby as it is.

I stepped back from the rules chase after first edition. Hasn't meant I've not brought stuff from 2nd ed- I have most of the battletomes and starter sets after all. But I have never been tied to the rules or felt pressured into buying it. Same with models. I can buy what ever models I like and if they are too much/I don't like them enough I've just saved some money or brought something else.

There is of course those that ONLY play GW official grand tournaments, but then they are buying into that side of the hobby. Sadly those costs kind of go along with it. But for anyone else, the hobby can be a huge sandbox to play in and people limit themselves so much. 

I'm really excited about about AoS 3rd Ed, as it means a ton of new models which so far looks just my cup of tea. The books that come in the starter sets etc are either a bonus item to flick through or something to stick in the crate of other junk that props up my gaming board. If its badly priced then I have a huge stash of kits (Had a lot of spare money and been stuck at home 14 months now) and there are a ton of other kits out there too I've been meaning to try out and add to my games.
 

[RuneBrush]

+++ MOD HAT +++

If people wish to discuss AoS3 please can we take this to a new thread.

[Kirjava13]

Don't post much anymore but just wanted to pitch in here and say the Cursed City stuff was absolutely effing infuriating. Them releasing the models is all well and good (it's not because of the hilarious pricing) but I actually wanted to play Warhammer Quest! It's annoying enough having to scour ebay for Blackstone Fortress expansions, but that's my own fault to a degree, I put off getting them for ages. To not be able to play the new one without pirating it because I couldn't afford it that week? And then all the communications nonsense that followed? Not on, not on at all. I'm still deeply unhappy about it.

[sandlemad]

11 hours ago, MarkK said:

Even the GW skirmish games are not inexpensive to buy into, Warcry now needs you to buy at least 2 books (core and faction), not counting the annual and enough miniatures for a game. This could easily run to well over 100 euro. The "starter" is 160 euro. 

Compare that to something similar like Frostgrave, where 50-60 euro (book, box of soldiers and Wizard) will get you playing. 

This really is a key thing. Maybe two years ago we could make noises about GW having a range of products at different prices, specifically to pull new players in. Warcry, WHU, SC boxes, ETB kits, all these. But all of them have shot up in price wildly or are in the process of being replaced with more expensive versions. There’s magazines and such but overall they’re shooting their own strategy of multiple entry points in the foot.

Cursed City had immense potential as a crossover boardgame crowd that would probably have been hindered by the price at least somewhat and then was completely scuppered by the general debacle.

[MarkK]

1 hour ago, sandlemad said:

This really is a key thing. Maybe two years ago we could make noises about GW having a range of products at different prices, specifically to pull new players in. Warcry, WHU, SC boxes, ETB kits, all these. But all of them have shot up in price wildly or are in the process of being replaced with more expensive versions. There’s magazines and such but overall they’re shooting their own strategy of multiple entry points in the foot.

Cursed City had immense potential as a crossover boardgame crowd that would probably have been hindered by the price at least somewhat and then was completely scuppered by the general debacle.

I looked through the Boxes games section of the website, and only Underworlds had 2 starters under 100 euro (50 and 65 for Direchasm), still with only 8 models each. Bloodbowl probably was the best value with 30 miniatures for 105. I'd place 2nd Necromunda at 120 with two gangs and terrain. Latest Underworlds warbands are 32.50.

GW already have the best template for starters with the 40k 9th edition boxes, the Recruit box having a leader and unit for 2 armies for 40 euro. The Elite box is 80 and adds 2 units and different leaders, giving more options for the purchaser.

I'd like to see a sub 50 starter for most games, even if it isn't the full game experience, e.g.

• Warcry: Pitfight - 2 gangs of 5-7 battle in the Carngrad coliseum 

• Cursed City: Ayzr Hunters - 3-5 adventurer's vs. a necromancer/vampire and 10 skeletons/zombies. 

I have a feeling AoS will have multiple starters, which will be good for the game, along with the new crusade system normalising smaller games.

But the skirmish level games really need to be competitive price wise to draw in new blood to GW. And to me, that means a way to try out the game or buy as a gift for a reasonable amount. They shouldn't be competing with the main games for cost of starting. 

You're right about the popularity of cursed city outside of GWs regular fans, I'd seen more RPGer's and Board gamer's interested in it than anything else GW put out before. Hopefully, more will be done with the setting, like smaller quest games, or Ulfenkarn themed Warcry warbands, but I suspect that ship has sailed.

[Sleboda]

13 hours ago, Mcthew said:

is GW in a good spot at the moment to be trusted, given what's happened so far with Cursed City?

First off, I gotta say, I really, really like GW stuff. Their person-to-person customer service is fantastic. Their engagement over the 'net has really kicked up several notches in recent years. There is a lot to like.

 

Now then. Trust? Not even a little. The Cursed City issue cancellation was bad. Really bad. Not saying one damn word about it (even if it was just "we know folks were excited, but we had to make the hard call to ditch it ... can't tell ya why") is unconscionable.

 

Add to that the severe shortages on not only limited books (Cursed City novel, the new 40K one, etc.), but also on standard release novels (newest undead one), it looks like amateur hour.

I mean, gosh, it's not at all uncommon to see new release items go out of stock either permanently (warscrolls ... WTF?) or for months (several Necron items, and now VC kits may be that way). These are new items. Key items. A huuuuuuge amount of an item's sales over its entire life cycle come in the initial month of release. Restocking later is fine, but they are absolutely bleeding profits on permanently lost sales with regularity. Stock holders should be livid. I know I am.

Finally, when you consider the regular/consistent inability to do good demand planning on big boxes, even vital ones like Indomitus, which is explained away each ... and ... every ... time as "by golly, you folks out there blew us away with how much you wanted," it's pretty clear that any trust they want us to have in their ability to supply products is not earned at all. It's even fair to speculate that they may be doing this intentionally to create FOMO and drive sales to their own site. I know, for example, that I'm glued to my keyboard every Saturday at noon, trying to be "lucky" enough to get what I want, at full retail, from them (I stopped using retailers on the internet months back. I used to buy regularly from places like Ministomp, Miniature Market, Dice Head, War Store (RIP), and others at a discount. I no longer do because those places either took my order and money for items they didn't even know they could get (aka lied) or simply stopped doing preorders because GW had been consistently shorting them, making me miss on things). I say "lucky" because some stuff, like the last undead novel, was sold out literally the instant it went up for sale. Was it even actually ever available in my market? I don't know. I just know I don't trust them at all in this regard.

Trust GW to meet demand? 

Not even a tiny little bit.

[Sleboda]

2 hours ago, MarkK said:

I'd like to see a sub 50 starter for most games, even if it isn't the full game experience, e.g.

• Warcry: Pitfight - 2 gangs of 5-7 battle in the Carngrad coliseum 

• Cursed City: Ayzr Hunters - 3-5 adventurer's vs. a necromancer/vampire and 10 skeletons/zombies. 

Pretty sure the is what the B&N games are meant to be.

[MarkK]

40 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

Pretty sure the is what the B&N games are meant to be.

Are they North America only? I've only seen those online

[Sleboda]

2 hours ago, MarkK said:

Are they North America only? I've only seen those online

I think so. For those who don't know, B&N is Barnes & Noble, a physical bookseller here in America. GW has several less expensive, slimmed down games available there. 

[zilberfrid]

3 hours ago, Sleboda said:

Pretty sure the is what the B&N games are meant to be.

Apart from availability, these are a step down in quality from what Underworld was, they have 2* 12€ ETB sets instead of the more interesting Underworld starters, and I don't think they are fully compatible with mainline Underworlds.

[sandlemad]

Yeah, lovely idea even if availability is severely limited, often quite good game design, still present problems for anyone wanting to take the next steps.

Blitz Bowl is a taster of Blood Bowl and you still have to buy the further expensive starter to keep going. Same for Dreadfane and the new WHU starter, it's a sharply slimmed down version of the rules, which has its benefits but means the cards which come with other warbands don't make sense unless you, yep, buy the 'actual' more expensive starter kit as well. Possibly Bladeborn and Fireteam will do better as intros to Warcy and Kill Team but I doubt it.

Ironically Cursed City actually technically works better as an intro to AoS than any of these. Get the warscrolls, download the core rules, and you can mess about in open play. The warscrolls and points and such are a slapdash bodge job, and make for a very poor intro to a SBGL army as written, but still.

 

Edited May 25, 2021 by sandlemad

[Cordova]

Speaking as someone who was lucky enough to get their hands on a copy, the general handling of the situation has left a very bitter taste in my mouth. It's very clear that the game was supposed to be a standard range item - the rulebook makes a veiled reference to expansions, there's an additional level to your heroes that you can't reach during the quest in the box, the effort put into the product web site and the extra locations on the Ulfenkarn map, and that White Dwarf was to have "loads of content" for it over the upcoming months. Obviously, the last year or so has presented a few problems - COVID, the UK-EU trade deal being finalised at the last minute, and ERP system issues to name a few - so I'm sure many would be understanding that plans can be scuppered. However, the complete lack of communication - pull the product listing, update the product site to remove the extra locations - doesn't feel good. I get that there are reasons why the may not be able to give details, but a simple, "due to circumstances beyond our control, we have had to suspend production of Cursed City for the foreseeable future. If we are able to resume production, we'll announce it on Warhammer Community, but in the meantime, please check your local stockist." would have helped.

If I'm being honest, the continued "sell out on release day never to be seen again" issues GW has with items which aren't marketed as limited edition (e.g. the card sets and transfers for Necromunda) is infuriating, and not only has seen me seriously reduce what I'd consider buying, but also look to other companies (e.g. Flying Frog's Shadows of Brimstone/Forbidden Fortress, and CMON's Descent) - not only is it costing GW current sales, but also future sales (at least in my very limited case).

22 hours ago, Kadeton said:

The thing I'm continually amazed that they're able to get away with is regional price fixing and the ban on international sales.

Sadly, both market-based pricing, and export restrictions are pretty standard for large companies (trademark holders can control import and export of their products into/out of a region, and can/have take those who undertake "grey imports" to court to obtain an injunction and damages).

[Sarouan]

Worth was it's worth, but the White Dwarf 464 is clearly stating there are more articles than the one on the heroes in it that will be coming in the next months.

Since White Dwarf is made several months in advance, may mean we will still see something in it even if the game is not available anymore online.

[Chikout]

I've been thinking about gw's sales results. They increased sales by 30% this year. Even allowing for a 10% increase in prices that's still an awful lot more stock that gw has shifted this year. 

It's reasonable to assume that gw based their production numbers for Cursed City on how well Blackstone Fortress sold. This was a decision that was probably made at least a year ago. Now Gw suddenly has 20-30% more customers clamouring for a product that generated a lot of prerealease buzz. With the hindsight of those surprisingly high sales numbers it's not surprising that Cursed City sold out much  faster than GW planned for. It's also not surprising that Gw might struggle to allocate a slot for a reprint especially with AoS 3 and a new Ork box set on the way. 

It doesn't excuse the terrible communication but it does explain a lot. 

Edited May 25, 2021 by Chikout

[MarkK]

1 hour ago, Chikout said:

I've been thinking about gw's sales results. They increased sales by 30% this year. Even allowing for a 10% increase in prices that's still an awful lot more stock that gw has shifted this year. 

It's reasonable to assume that gw based their production numbers for Cursed City on how well Blackstone Fortress sold. This was a decision that was probably made at least a year ago. Now Gw suddenly has 20-30% more customers clamouring for a product that generated a lot of prerealease buzz. With the hindsight of those surprisingly high sales numbers it's not surprising that Cursed City sold out much  faster than GW planned for. It's also not surprising that Gw might struggle to allocate a slot for a reprint especially with AoS 3 and a new Ork box set on the way. 

It doesn't excuse the terrible communication but it does explain a lot. 

My guess is that Cursed City was months late on release, and closer to the release of Soulblight Gravelords than intended. The Vyrkos vampires may have been the planned expansions to Cursed City and already written into the Battletome months ago. The Battletome would have then spoiled the contents of the expansions, coming only weeks after the release of Cursed City. GW then decided to just release everything in one big lot. Radukar the beast was probably the final boss expansion, released just ahead of the Battletome.

When it sold out, GW had made their money back, the lack of communication may have been dithering on their part deciding whether or not to print another run. Again, with Gravelords needing to be released before 3rd edition landed, and spoiling the expansions, and expecting Gravelords to pull some of the interest away from Cursed City, they decided it wasn't worth the investment. 

The communication from GW has been contradictory and confusing that would indicate that the decision to reprint was up in the air until very recently.

P.S. The fact that Blackstone Fortress is still in regular stock would suggest that there is no problem with vendors, tariffs or Brexit as previously mentioned, but a management decision to not detract from the Gravelords release.

The wrong decision in my opinion.

Edited May 25, 2021 by MarkK

[Greybeard86]

2 hours ago, MarkK said:

When it sold out, GW had made their money back, the lack of communication may have been dithering on their part deciding whether or not to print another run. Again, with Gravelords needing to be released before 3rd edition landed, and spoiling the expansions, and expecting Gravelords to pull some of the interest away from Cursed City, they decided it wasn't worth the investment.

I think that's it. What was bad form was removing all mention from the website of future expansions, essentially retconning their own marketing. I imagine some people bought it because they had claimed that the game would be receiving further support. And then they decided they wouldn't, but instead of admitting to it (it would have been bad already), they pretended that this hadn't happened and deleted media claims to the contrary.

Frankly, appalingly bad communication. There might have been a "good" excuse for it (covid, brexit, who knows), but the overall way in which they navigated it is as dishonest as possible. If, on top, it was a pure business decision (not to predate on other sales), then it is just frustratingly anti-consumer.

All that said, I do like a lot the minis, and that's why I originally bought it.

[MarkK]

13 minutes ago, Greybeard86 said:

I think that's it. What was bad form was removing all mention from the website of future expansions, essentially retconning their own marketing. I imagine some people bought it because they had claimed that the game would be receiving further support. And then they decided they wouldn't, but instead of admitting to it (it would have been bad already), they pretended that this hadn't happened and deleted media claims to the contrary.

Frankly, appalingly bad communication. There might have been a "good" excuse for it (covid, brexit, who knows), but the overall way in which they navigated it is as dishonest as possible. If, on top, it was a pure business decision (not to predate on other sales), then it is just frustratingly anti-consumer.

All that said, I do like a lot the minis, and that's why I originally bought it.

Yes, Covid probably was the reason why it was delayed, but I do think it was a business decision not to do a second print run or expansions after Gravelords released. The Battletome has pictures and profiles of the miniatures for the expansions, and it wouldn't do to not release them months after the Battletome released. 3rd party manufacturers would have a head start cranking out their versions of rat princes or wolf vampires. 

The communications were shocking though, I missed out on a box because of the lies told in the run up to release. I wonder how many missed out because they thought this was going to be regular stock like Blackstone Fortress?

[EccentricCircle]

I only got a copy because I happened to mention to the friendly local game store guys that I was going to pre-order it. They were already taking reservations and so I got my name down for their last copy. That was on the Tuesday *before* pre-order actually went live. Had I waited till Saturday morning they would have been sold out.

[Sleboda]

On 5/25/2021 at 8:12 AM, MarkK said:

management decision to not detract from the Gravelords release.

I respect your thoughts on this, but have to disagree. There just no way an entire product range is killed off just to persevere a few sales from one small subset of another.

 

[MarkK]

9 hours ago, Sleboda said:

I respect your thoughts on this, but have to disagree. There just no way an entire product range is killed off just to persevere a few sales from one small subset of another.

 

If the expansions for Cursed City are released then my assessment would be incorrect. I don't work for GW, I have no way to know the reasons behind not reprinting Cursed City, just my own conjecture. 

GW have shown no fear in discontinuing ranges or products in the past with little or no communication. If Cursed City or it's expansions are never to be seen again, I can't come up with an explanation that isn't a business decision, which, to be fair, is entirely up to GWs responsibilities to their shareholders as a publicly traded company. 

[Sleboda]

6 hours ago, MarkK said:

If Cursed City or it's expansions are never to be seen again, I can't come up with an explanation that isn't a business decision,

I can.

Lawsuit.

It's abundantly clear they had invested in a long term lifespan of the game. The initial setup work (the videos, for example, and more) was massive, the pre-marketing was expansive, and the hints at expansions in the materials is hard to ignore. This was a game with a LOT invested in it. There was a future.

And then *poof* it was gone. 

In other words, they had put a bunch of time and money into establishing a long run. But then it died with absolutely, positively zero, ziltch, nada in terms of communication.

Only one thing explains it. They were compelled to kill it by a law suit. I'm guessing there was something in the game to which someone else could claim ownership. They sued and won and part of the terms included not publishing any other products. I mean, for goodness sake, they didn't even mention the game when they released the models from it. No "fans of Cursed City who missed out on these models won't need to wait much longer to get their hands on them."

The complete lack of reference to Cursed City in ALL materials since the vanishing is a huuuuuuge tell that GW is being compelled to act a certain way, and the lack of any sort of explanation is also 100% in line with a court order to shush.

Do I know this is the case? No. It does, however, fit completely with what has happened and continues to happen.

 

A simpler way to look at this is the age old adage: "Follow the money." The game and its future plans were going to make plenty of money for GW. I can see where timing might (might!) have stepped on the Gravelords a tiny, tiny bit, but nowhere near how much the game would have made them, and if there's one thing I trust about GW, it's that they will always go for maximum money.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Sleboda
I really hate predictive text and autocorrect.

[Aloth_Corfiser]

14 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

I can.

Lawsuit.

That is all really interesting. Maybe in a few decades (probably more) there will be some specialized Historian who can dig in the archives about that. But that is a very convincing writeup @Sleboda and I tend to believe it as well.

Do you guys have any Literature recommendation(s) about similar cases? 

Edited May 27, 2021 by Aloth_Corfiser