The Cursed City situation

[Bosskelot]

9 hours ago, SirSalabean said:

I’m not sure if it’s been mentioned but I spoke to a couple people I know at GW and cursed city was cut as over the most recent lockdown in the UK we are only now exciting their UK print company went bust, the had big plans with them including cursed city and they had closed their China facility due to this. It’s not the best scenario but it’s one I can understand due to the unforeseen circumstances.

 

what I personally disagree with is the handling of the situation, all they needed to do was clearly explain the situation and apologise for the misinformation. What they did was sly and pushing comments under the rug didn’t help.

Thankfully I’m not interested in cursed city but I definitely feel for others. Hopefully this doesn’t happen again. 

The issue with this, and many of the other theories, is that CC was up for sale for like an hour at most before disappearing and all mention of it in social media posts started to be removed and past warcom articles started to be edited.

So, during that weeks period of pre-order basically everything that could go wrong in the continued production of CC did go wrong? 

That's not to say this all didn't happen, but my point is that if it did happen, it happened months or weeks in advance and so GW would have likely known the game wasn't going to be a long-term product. But they still continued to advertise it as such.

So putting the blame of things on tariffs or shipping issues or print companies going under either makes GW incompetent or actively malicious.

[Kaleb Daark]

1 hour ago, Bosskelot said:

That's not to say this all didn't happen, but my point is that if it did happen, it happened months or weeks in advance and so GW would have likely known the game wasn't going to be a long-term product. But they still continued to advertise it as such.

So putting the blame of things on tariffs or shipping issues or print companies going under either makes GW incompetent or actively malicious.

That release plan as you say would have happened at least three to six months ahead if not longer.

There is a trend at the moment for any business to use brexit and covid as the get out of jail card.  Don't be surprised if that pony is ridden for the rest of this year.  Its not just GW, everybody is doing it, so we'll all have to get used to that as being a thing until there is a global recovery.

However, the going back and doctoring documents to make it look like it never happened is pretty poor and questionable by any standards.

But at least with social media and email you can make your thoughts known as a collective voice, as you can with your purchase decisions.

At the end of the day they are there to make money that is all.  The mechanism used is board and tabletop gaming, and that 'listening' occurs when the bottom line is at risk, whereupon they will seek to recover that revenue stream and if there was something wrong the PR department put their best smiles on and get to work to win hearts and minds.

Do I think one per household was a move against scalpers - hell no, they couldn't care less - the revenue generated after the goods have left their warehouse is out of their control and therefore none fo their concern.

One per household was about exposure- the more people that buy it the more people have exposure to the factions and characters and that will drive sales and other revenue streams in other areas.

You sell ten copies to one guy  - great he's got his soulblight army - buy armybook and dice and sit back and enjoy.

You sell ten copies to ten guys - great they all go and buy a soulblight army or maybe a free cities or elves or dwarves etc etc.

Ten potential new army sales vs one due with a big grin.

If anything the clever part is that the characters from it all have to be used as one drop in the battletome - therefore pretty much shafting the scalper who is going to sell the characters separately  - sure he will, to  a painter or collector, but not to a gamer who needs to be able to run them in his list.

 

I think we're going to see more of it, and it will become the norm rather than the exception. 

The mothership has groomed people into building up a level of hype that has been unprecedented - you never saw this level of hype in fantasy battle anywhere near the devotional levels we're seeing now across both systems.

It knows it can do a cost saving one off run and sell everything it has in stock for whatever price it wants.  People may complain that 125gbp is the new normal, but they'll still pay it, becuase if they don't they won't get.  Its very simple and it works.

GW have been leaning towards this model for a long time now when you look back, and they've seen it working for them very well. 

It's worth bearing in mind that like any business irrespective of field, you're only a customer as long as you spend money. As any accountant will tell you, money in the till is one thing, people whining about xyz is f no concern to them.

Brets and tomb kings..  lets leave the wider arguments aside, but on a simplistic level, if everyone had bought a starter box of each, even if they were not going to play them competitively because they were that rubbish, their fate might have been different.  For GW to keep stuff hanging around they need to see that they are selling, otherwise sayonara.  And in truth they've never made a secret of that.

 

But I'm digressing - I agree with you in that the way the aftermath was handled was totally unprofessional and very poor.

I think they would have been better to just come out with some old baloney about supply chains and the economic climate and we're really sorry, we never meant this to happen etc, rather than some attempt at retcon and hope that none of us would notice.  Sloppy work GW, sloppy work.

One just hopes that someone is getting their nuts chewed at the mothership over this in a Mysterio style "they nearly saw through our illusion, what were you thinking!!" kinda style.

They aren't a great evil by any means, but their operation is slick and they're not going to bow or listen  to any of us lot unless we're an influencer or a shareholder with a big fat stake in the business.

Edited May 20, 2021 by Kaleb Daark

[RexHavoc]

3 hours ago, Darnok said:

Aye, and I kind of fear to know the actual price. My personal limit is set at 65€ - steep, but I can justify it for myself. Any more and I'm out.

Yeap same, but only for the one box. I'm assuming that it will be about that and then Radukar will be another €32.50ish on top. I'd be pleasantly surprised if its anything less than €100 for the two sets. I'd be speechless if both are anything near €50 for both.

€65 is about what I would I have spent on the Dark imperium books to replace the first two & new one this weekend, I loved the series but really hate that they've made alterations to the first two books and changed the covers so the third one doesn't match the old set of books at all. After a single book- I could maybe roll my eyes and rebuy it, but having to rebuy two books I already own to get the most out of the final one. Nah. I'd rather buy models that can be used across multiple games and give me plenty of hobby time out of them.

Still not impressed that they've not come out and said even something like 'These are the only ways to get the models currently/for the foreseeable future'- not that many would believe that at this point 'as foreseeable future' turned out to be like 7 mins with the game itself!

[Dracan]

Not really following the thread and think its poor (some might rightly say dodgy) marketing from GW, but the vote trend is an interesting one, and think pretty telling of the times that,

Out of a 160 submitted votes,

95 odd people wanted the set,

75 could find and buy it, 

38 out of 65 people that wasnt interested think this is unfair.

What is a good number for market saturation and satisfaction? Not in marketing so wont hazard a guess.

Obviously you want it as close to 100 as possible but 79% surely isnt terrible?

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by Dracan

[zilberfrid]

16 minutes ago, Dracan said:

Not really following the thread and think its poor (some might rightly say dodgy) marketing from GW, but the vote trend is an interesting one, and think pretty telling of the times that,

Out of a 160 submitted votes,

95 odd people wanted the set,

75 could find and buy it, 

38 out of 65 people that wasnt interested think this is unfair.

What is a good number for market saturation and satisfaction? Not in marketing so wont hazard a guess.

Obviously you want it as close to 100 as possible but 79% surely isnt terrible?

 

Do note that an option of "I wanted to get the set later, because GW told it was a permanent addition to the range" is missing.

[stato]

22 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

Do note that an option of "I wanted to get the set later, because GW told it was a permanent addition to the range" is missing.

So as the person most impacted by this, has it changed your buying habits?  as in actually. Money in your bank and not spending it on GW.  Be good to get an actual opinion from an affected party.

Cant speak for everyone obviously but most people seeming to think GW acted badly are still posting in other threads about GW games and what armies/units to buy for gaming.  So while GW have acted very poorly, it has (as is often the case) made little difference to the bottom line.

[zilberfrid]

47 minutes ago, stato said:

So as the person most impacted by this, has it changed your buying habits?  as in actually. Money in your bank and not spending it on GW.  Be good to get an actual opinion from an affected party.

Cant speak for everyone obviously but most people seeming to think GW acted badly are still posting in other threads about GW games and what armies/units to buy for gaming.  So while GW have acted very poorly, it has (as is often the case) made little difference to the bottom line.

Yes. I had budgetted Cursed City, and have purchased more stuff for my plate mail instead. 

Not entirely the same hobby, but I'll paint it up nonetheless.

Since I didn't get Cursed City, I am uninterested in expanding my undead with GW's stuff, and will not expand my humies in GW's incompatible scaling, instead just using Frostgrave, Oathmark or Blacklist.

[Televiper11]

While it is easy to get into a conspiratorial mindset or condemn GW due past bad practices, the silence & erasure around this issue strikes me as a legal issue. “Cursed City” is anathema until that legal issue is ironed out. Hence the re-releasing of certain models from that set with zero reference to the set itself. And pointing out this month’s White Dwarf isn’t a factor cuz White Dwarf’s are produced month’s ahead, before this became a legal issue. The only thing the WD article does is strengthen the claim that this was meant to be a supported game and then something happened.

Notice I’m not speculating on what the legal reason is because they are literally dozens of options and at this point we might not know for months or years and if we do, it will just be a line dropped in their investor reports.

Does this suck from a consumer point of view, absolutely; and, again, it is hard not to blame a company who hasn’t always engaged in best practices with its public. Even if they could have done MfO like Indomitus, they wouldn’t have had capacity right now cuz they are currently cranking out the 3.0 boxes. 

[Kaleb Daark]

32 minutes ago, Televiper11 said:

While it is easy to get into a conspiratorial mindset or condemn GW due past bad practices, the silence & erasure around this issue strikes me as a legal issue. “Cursed City” is anathema until that legal issue is ironed out. Hence the re-releasing of certain models from that set with zero reference to the set itself. And pointing out this month’s White Dwarf isn’t a factor cuz White Dwarf’s are produced month’s ahead, before this became a legal issue. The only thing the WD article does is strengthen the claim that this was meant to be a supported game and then something happened.

Notice I’m not speculating on what the legal reason is because they are literally dozens of options and at this point we might not know for months or years and if we do, it will just be a line dropped in their investor reports.

Does this suck from a consumer point of view, absolutely; and, again, it is hard not to blame a company who hasn’t always engaged in best practices with its public. Even if they could have done MfO like Indomitus, they wouldn’t have had capacity right now cuz they are currently cranking out the 3.0 boxes. 

I wouldn't even credit them with that.

I think its a simple as someone in marketing dropping the ball.

Ibe it marketing, logistics, whatever, it's a simple schoolboy mistake that shouldn't have happened for a business the size of them.  GW/ Citadel of twenty years ago, sure, but the corporate machine it is now.. nah.

This is wrong column on the spreadsheet sort of goof up.  The sort of goof up that the wrong co-ordinate sends the imperial guard shuttle dropping onto a warzone instead of the R&R planet because they were one digit out kind of stuff.

In the big scheme of things it's barely made a ripple in the GW ocean.

It's done, and next boxed set you'll probably get the same chump making the same mistake again, and then we can rinse and repeat.

"What do you mean we're not in the Azyr stormfyre sea resort ?!"

[RexHavoc]

1 hour ago, stato said:

So as the person most impacted by this, has it changed your buying habits?  as in actually. Money in your bank and not spending it on GW.  Be good to get an actual opinion from an affected party.

Cant speak for everyone obviously but most people seeming to think GW acted badly are still posting in other threads about GW games and what armies/units to buy for gaming.  So while GW have acted very poorly, it has (as is often the case) made little difference to the bottom line.

So I posted this previously but not being able to pick the game has affected my future spending habits. I'd have liked it to put on a AoS Skirmish Campaign set in city, rather than just played the game as is. Not being able to pick the set up in a time frame that suits me mean that I will now:

-Not be buying all/any new bosses/Xpacs
-Not be buying the new zombie/skeletons (as they fit the set ones. I'm certainly never going to be convinced to buy skeletons at €45 for any other reason. €60 for 91 models elsewhere)
-Buying other models from AoS to convert to new heroes/NPCs/Creatures too expand the campaign.
-Probably would have brought the book alongside game
-More models means more Paint
If they do release everything from the game separately, I'll begrudgingly by the single set of monsters coming this Saturday for the one model I really wanted but if I do, I won't buy any of the other things I would have gotten, which would have added up to a lot more.

But this isn't the first time this has happened either, there has been three or four incidents in the last 6 months that I've gone else where or stopped me buying the future due to GW doing GWish things.

-Mucked up my order for LE Ravenor. Almost lost out on another LE item (Map) when they oversold it when dealing with the book. Then took an age to refund (talking weeks). So I didn't buy the 2nd or future LEs there. 
-Lost my Order of the Siege of Terror LE for 4 months with little to no contact or info. Spent ages chasing. I'm no longer buying any LE HH books and decided to sell off a good chunk of my collection (Solar War is selling for crazy €1000+. Money that won't go back in to the hobby)
-Oversold an Item on my girlfriends Christmas order- huge order, big selection of items for members of our gaming group. This was made in November. Mostly odds n ends kits, no high popularity/rare items. February comes and we are still chasing it. One item was showing in stock on website but they are actually out of stock- one metal skaven model. If we request refund they will send out  rest if items. Another week has passed with this back and forth. Next week- another email. The skaven is now BACK in stock but in now they've sold out of another three items. Another back and forth to get refunded. That money ended up going on a huge amount of Oathmark stuff instead.

So I've had people tell me 'Oh but you are still buying from them'. Yes. Cheap kits- like start collecting and battle forces from discounted stores. Just the regular editions of the last two series of books I intend to finish off (SoT & The Primarchs) and then no more black library at all. I've already stopped buying any AoS books. A pittance compared to what I was buying prior to last year. All because they are making it to much of a chore to order from.



 

[Doko]

2 hours ago, stato said:

So as the person most impacted by this, has it changed your buying habits?  as in actually. Money in your bank and not spending it on GW.  Be good to get an actual opinion from an affected party.

Cant speak for everyone obviously but most people seeming to think GW acted badly are still posting in other threads about GW games and what armies/units to buy for gaming.  So while GW have acted very poorly, it has (as is often the case) made little difference to the bottom line.

Yes i dont like as gw dealt with cursed city and i just start a soulbligth army so i was thinking(when cursed city was released) get at some point one box to use as start collecting for soulbligth.

But i only changed from cursed city as starter to fec start collecting and skeletons start collecting bougth.

It hurts me,i know gw are jerks that only think in money,but in my town only play gw minis so i cant change to other company

[MarkK]

4 hours ago, stato said:

So as the person most impacted by this, has it changed your buying habits?  as in actually. Money in your bank and not spending it on GW.  Be good to get an actual opinion from an affected party.

Cant speak for everyone obviously but most people seeming to think GW acted badly are still posting in other threads about GW games and what armies/units to buy for gaming.  So while GW have acted very poorly, it has (as is often the case) made little difference to the bottom line.

Yes, I was intending to buy cursed city in a couple of months for my birthday, but when it sold out unexpectedly permanently, I spent some of the money on the Stargrave nickstarter. Will be ordering 5 Parsecs from Home also.

That will probably be the majority of my hobby spending for most of the year after I got the Indomitus box and a couple of Warcry warbands this year. It'll take me a while to finish painting what I already have, so GW won't be getting the 120 odd euro they otherwise would have (+ the expansions I was all on for purchasing).

I may purchase the cursed city villains if the price is right, but there are other games out there, like the ones mentioned above and larger scale models/busts that I'm now interested in since I won't be spending my budget on cursed city.

[zilberfrid]

34 minutes ago, MarkK said:

Yes, I was intending to buy cursed city in a couple of months for my birthday, but when it sold out unexpectedly permanently, I spent some of the money on the Stargrave nickstarter. Will be ordering 5 Parsecs from Home also.

That will probably be the majority of my hobby spending for most of the year after I got the Indomitus box and a couple of Warcry warbands this year. It'll take me a while to finish painting what I already have, so GW won't be getting the 120 odd euro they otherwise would have (+ the expansions I was all on for purchasing).

I may purchase the cursed city villains if the price is right, but there are other games out there, like the ones mentioned above and larger scale models/busts that I'm now interested in since I won't be spending my budget on cursed city.

Stargrave greatly interests me (have the book), but their model sets seem all male, Nick makes excellent female sculpts (as evidenced by Frostgrave) soI'm waiting for that. May end up getting one or two of the current boxes though.

[MarkK]

4 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

Stargrave greatly interests me (have the book), but their model sets seem all male, Nick makes excellent female sculpts (as evidenced by Frostgrave) soI'm waiting for that. May end up getting one or two of the current boxes though.

Still waiting for the book (thanks Brexit 🙂), just went for the mercenaries box and book so far. Have plenty of minis that will work anyway, but looking forward to seeing the female boxes too.

[stato]

So if you have spent money elsewhere, or not at all, and you are bothered by this or lost interest in GW products, email them.  Forum posting might get noticed but a bunch of well thought out non-ranty or hyperbole emails explaining your thoughts may just get passed on.  

I dont think it will make a difference in this specific instance about Cursed City coming back or getting a response, as the decisions about this will now be at the top level and concern on share prices will make them keep sweeping CC under the rug, so the only response we will get will be a statement in the end of year report about positives and negatives of the past operating period. BUT, knowing there is a person on the end of their actions, either through feedback or sales figures, will be considered in future actions.

Edited May 20, 2021 by stato

[RexHavoc]

26 minutes ago, stato said:

So if you have spent money elsewhere, or not at all, and you are bothered by this or lost interest in GW products, email them.  Forum posting might get noticed but a bunch of well thought out non-ranty or hyperbole emails explaining your thoughts may just get passed on.  

I dont think it will make a difference in this specific instance about Cursed City coming back or getting a response, as the decisions about this will now be at the top level and concern on share prices will make them keep sweeping CC under the rug, so the only response we will get will be a statement in the end of year report about positives and negatives of the past operating period. BUT, knowing there is a person on the end of their actions, either through feedback or sales figures, will be considered in future actions.

Except that it doesn't nothing. I've emailed every time that I've had an issue where I've brought something that they have then oversold and every time I've gotten back an 'oof. Sorry you are not happy with your order'. Not sorry we mucked up, not sorry this is happened repeatedly. Sorry that I was not happy.

I think its left myself in a pretty horrid potion- can't complain to GW as they've gotten too large to really care. Stuff is still going to sell out, its just a lottery on who will be quick enough to get it. And for everyone that ditches their stuff, someone else is then able to snatch an order in their place. But then can't indulge as much in the hobby online- and having been stuck at home for 14 months does provide me with a lot of my hobby/social interactions right now. But you have some people kick up a stink if you anything that doesn't have the GW/AoS stamp of approval.

[Rachmani]

6 hours ago, stato said:

So as the person most impacted by this, has it changed your buying habits?  as in actually. Money in your bank and not spending it on GW.  Be good to get an actual opinion from an affected party.

Cant speak for everyone obviously but most people seeming to think GW acted badly are still posting in other threads about GW games and what armies/units to buy for gaming.  So while GW have acted very poorly, it has (as is often the case) made little difference to the bottom line.

This very instance - no!

I actually got a box from my trusted dealer. I've known the guy for 20 years, we play boardgames together, if he gets it, I get it.

 

But overall, I buy less GW stuff than I used to. That has to do with me getting older, becoming a dad etc. But also with a felt (so very subjective) lack of connection that I used to have with GW, when I was in my teens & student days. Communication is different. Now I wouldn't argue that it might just be me, who has changed & GW being the same as always, but still. Something has changed & quelled my hype. If I had to pinpoint it, it started in the "dark days of Kirby" - and I actually like AoS & can forgive the death of the world that was. Heck, I even see how they're trying to fix it and still keep the good of AoS. So I bear no grudges with their game developers. Just their communications & marketing is not my cup of tea.

P.S. I'm also not as fast as I used to be and feel my back sometimes, when I do computer work all day.  

[zilberfrid]

2 hours ago, stato said:

So if you have spent money elsewhere, or not at all, and you are bothered by this or lost interest in GW products, email them.  Forum posting might get noticed but a bunch of well thought out non-ranty or hyperbole emails explaining your thoughts may just get passed on.  

I dont think it will make a difference in this specific instance about Cursed City coming back or getting a response, as the decisions about this will now be at the top level and concern on share prices will make them keep sweeping CC under the rug, so the only response we will get will be a statement in the end of year report about positives and negatives of the past operating period. BUT, knowing there is a person on the end of their actions, either through feedback or sales figures, will be considered in future actions.

Honestly? If it puts money in the bank of smaller designers/game companies, I'm all for GW making more mistakes.

[RuneBrush]

12 hours ago, RexHavoc said:

Except that it doesn't nothing. I've emailed every time that I've had an issue where I've brought something that they have then oversold and every time I've gotten back an 'oof. Sorry you are not happy with your order'. Not sorry we mucked up, not sorry this is happened repeatedly. Sorry that I was not happy.

I think its left myself in a pretty horrid potion- can't complain to GW as they've gotten too large to really care. Stuff is still going to sell out, its just a lottery on who will be quick enough to get it. And for everyone that ditches their stuff, someone else is then able to snatch an order in their place. But then can't indulge as much in the hobby online- and having been stuck at home for 14 months does provide me with a lot of my hobby/social interactions right now. But you have some people kick up a stink if you anything that doesn't have the GW/AoS stamp of approval.

I'm guessing you emailed their main customer service email?  They do have a dedicated complaints email which is where you should be sending any specific grievances.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

12 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

Honestly? If it puts money in the bank of smaller designers/game companies, I'm all for GW making more mistakes.

Same here. I love a lot of GWs products, but I don't love the way the company seems to want an adversarial relationship with it's customers, where both are always trying to take advantage of the other.

[Okman]

I hadn't seen that.  Thank you.                                                                                                                                 เกมยิงปลา

Edited May 21, 2021 by Okman

[RexHavoc]

1 hour ago, RuneBrush said:

I'm guessing you emailed their main customer service email?  They do have a dedicated complaints email which is where you should be sending any specific grievances.

I looked before and didn't see one, but just taken another look and there is the complaints portal, all the way down the bottom and not included in the contact us section where all the other sections are! https://www.games-workshop.com/en-IE/Contact-Us
 

But thanks, yes I had only been using the main customer services one before.

[EMMachine]

I have the feeling Limited Releases are more a problem from Lore perspective than for the model releases.

Looking at stuff like Carrion Empire or Looncurse, where the boxes Booklets were the main rescources of Lore for the Kingdom Metallurgica or the continent Ayadah. While the new models (Abhorrant Archregent, Warlock Bombardier, Arch-Revenant) had their Solorelease later you have no chance to get your hands on the lore later because the lore isn't printed anywhere else in that detail.

It is now the same problem with Cursed City. While the models most likely will come back (like we see with Raducar and his court), the lore of the books is lost if you weren't able to get your hands on the box.

Looking at Cursed City it is weird as well, that their is a section "Stories from the Cursed City" with the heroes of the Cursed City Box in todays White Dwarf. I mean, it would have made more sense if the game would be still available.

[RexHavoc]

6 minutes ago, EMMachine said:

I have the feeling Limited Releases are more a problem from Lore perspective than for the model releases.

Looking at stuff like Carrion Empire or Looncurse, where the boxes Booklets were the main rescources of Lore for the Kingdom Metallurgica or the continent Ayadah. While the new models (Abhorrant Archregent, Warlock Bombardier, Arch-Revenant) had their Solorelease later you have no chance to get your hands on the lore later because the lore isn't printed anywhere else in that detail.

It is now the same problem with Cursed City. While the models most likely will come back (like we see with Raducar and his court), the lore of the books is lost if you weren't able to get your hands on the box.

Looking at Cursed City it is weird as well, that their is a section "Stories from the Cursed City" with the heroes of the Cursed City Box in todays White Dwarf. I mean, it would have made more sense if the game would be still available.

Tin foil hat time:  I'm starting to think that this is what they want for AoS lore. Lore that is almost 'throwaway'. There is a lot of problems with 40k lore- a lot of writers meeting regularly to discuss and plan (taking time out of actually producing content), community outrage when ever something new is introduced, rewriting books that have already been released to milk more money from the series.

Booklets of lore or campaign short stories help shift models and boxes, but once they are done with they can discard them without worrying that it will affect some later release or need them to work within some selective boundary. They don't remain beholden to some 5 page lore booklet that was released some number of years ago. My assumption is most people won't even remember what was in those booklets a year down the line.

The White Dwarf issue is that it was probably printed 3 or more months ago, when Cursed City had intended to be a mainstay product. I'm assuming that most of the Cursed City lore of the villains will be republished in the new battletome they are in, but maybe not.  Still not good advertising, but having them appear now will just stir people up again over the game for the next few days whilst GW go back to not saying anything concrete.

[RuneBrush]

1 hour ago, RexHavoc said:

I looked before and didn't see one, but just taken another look and there is the complaints portal, all the way down the bottom and not included in the contact us section where all the other sections are! https://www.games-workshop.com/en-IE/Contact-Us
 

But thanks, yes I had only been using the main customer services one before.

No problems.  I think their customer services department are honestly less aware of what's going on than we are nowadays.  No guarantee the complaints thing will be any better but hopefully it'll get closer to the decision maker 😊