New dwarf army soon? Mixed dwarfs

[Beliman]

3 hours ago, Freypal said:

Similar to the above... Old time Warhammer Fantasy Dwarf player myself.... I would personally be happy if they souped Fyreslayers and a new Grungni faction based around (and possibly including) the style of the dispossessed cities units. I can also see why people would be unhappy with the inclusion of KO in this soup although from a personal perspective it wouldn't necessarily bother me so long as the rules still make sense and there is a good narrative reason.

Imho, that's because it was just one army of Dwarfs. Let me explain:

Dwarfs had one theme (that means classic dwarfs, mines, mountains and all this semi-Tolkien stuff), with some units flirting with other themes, like Slayers. This type of units were used to break the homogenization of the army (like Trolls, Bull centaurs, Gryph cavalry, some chariots, and some centerpiece models etc...).

That's what an army should be: one "global" theme and an small number of units taking another sub-themes to put some "color" on the army. Sometimes it's an artillery unit, sometimes it's a troop unit, sometimes is a big beast, etc..

But in AoS, we have 2 completely diferent armies, with their own themes. And they still have some sub-themes that can be used and enhanced if someone works on them. And that's what I think we are going to lose if we merge dwarfs: the possibility to expand new sub-themes for Kharadrons and Fyreslayers. 

Let's see this from another point. My KOs don't want to be the Air Temple of Lumineth with two pages of rules to play as their own. I want to play as a whole Lumineth army, with my own temples (sub-themes) and my own Great nations (Skyports). I want 60 pages of lore talking about KOs story, updated with the the last Broken Realm events, with descriptions about our guilds (sub-themes) and cities (sub-factions).

I'm not sure that mixing all dwarf together is the right path to accomplish that.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Beliman

[Skreech Verminking]

25 minutes ago, Beliman said:

 I'm not sure that mixing all dwarf together is the right path to accomplish that.

Well, it would definitely encourage people (especially  me) to mix and match some fyreslayers into their/my Dispossessed army.

 

[zilberfrid]

11 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Well, it would definitely encourage people (especially  me) to mix and match some fyreslayers into their/my Dispossessed army.

Fyreslayers and Disposessed seem quite compatible. Ironweld and Kharadron also seem quite compatible.

Fyreslayers and Kharadron a lot less so.

Also note that Ironweld got a page they had to share with humans, Disposessed got two pages (I think), while both Kharadron and Fyreslayers have a full battletome that would need to be snipped quite a bit to fit in a new one.

So for Disposessed, it's exactly what they want (they even get a god back), and you could make a good case that Fyreslayers need a lot of help, but Kharadron are popular on their own and would mostly lose. It's like making every Skyport into Thryng.

Edited June 25, 2021 by zilberfrid

[silverstu]

I think as well visually a new/fresh AoS dwarf faction could link the armies better as well. Warclans mashes old and new armies together. A new dwarf army sharing something in terms of design cues could look really good- like the ancestor war masks.Plus they would have the same scale and shape as each other. Gotrek looks excellent and looks good alongside the modern sculpts but he is neither Fyreslayer or KO. 

 I agree I'd hate to see KO to become like a specialist faction, but I think we should just wait and see how they mould it. Hopefully we get to keep/enhance their individual flavours in a combined Duardin Nations book- there could be fresh art and stories for themas well and for the lore/art we still have our old battle tomes. I'll admit I'm not a gamer currently more a collector but I always love the themes of the army shown in the rules. 

Also could be a bigger book to accommodate more stuff. 

[stratigo]

9 hours ago, Dawi not Duardin said:

I have no opinion on the rules question but I don't agree that it's insulting to merge the Dwarfs. It wasn't insulting to have one Dwarf book and three elf books back in WHFB. If anything, it just showed that the Dwarfs were more cohesive than the various elf factions. That just says something about the pointless elf infighting. They should have been united under Malekith all along.

But, jokes aside, I think this is going to be a case where people will have different preferences depending on what they are familiar with. Personally, I even disliked the split of army book Undeed into Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings back in WHFB. That's in part because I like larger books. But I'll admit it's also the nostalgia factor. I personally don't have much of an emotional connection to the Fyreslayers or Kharadron or Dispossessed under Sigmar(!), but a Grungni-centered faction is meaningful to me as an old-school Dwarf player in a way these never can be. It's really the same thing as what attracts people to the Lumineth as High Elf proxies.

With that in mind, it's probably going to be hard to please everyone here for GW. For any faction that ever was introduced, there's going to be someone who prefers it the way that faction was at some particular point. So I get that some people always will want the dwarf factions to stay apart, but... just expressing my own preference based on the above, Dawi United is what I'd like to see.

It was, because GW clearly cared more about elves than dwarves in old fantasy. I mean, check the end times. The dwarves essentially have their entire named character list murdered by sniktch at the start and then play second fiddle to.... elves and humans the entire time. The dwarves were done super dirty.

 

And the trend looks like it is continuing. I mean KO are so interesting as models and a faction that I had hope someone in GW had real passion for them, But no, it looks like what they really care about is more elves. And this sucks. KO being lumped into Fyreslayers and/or disposessed is GW going "Eh, this interesting steampunk army we made? we're out of ideas, so here, you get to be in the new dwarf army and never see an expansion of your range ever again." 

And this is worse for fyreslayers that have just been done dirty full out.

[Warboss Gorbolg]

If Fyreslayers were to receive just 1 new dual-kit that was something other than “duradin on foot with X weapons” then I think they would feel much more varied and complete, and as a result would be more popular.

This was an issue even in WHFB, where too much of the dwarf range was just dwarves on foot with different weapons. Combing Fyreslayers and Dispossessed does nothing to remedy this decades old issue.

A soup battletome only would excite me if it is accompanied by at least modest expansions of the Fyreslayer and Dispossessed ranges. Neither Fyreslayers or Dispossessed need more duradin on foot units.

[Dawi not Duardin]

3 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Perhaps Gotreks gets his own alle go allegiance  abilities for all duardins to follow his unyielding carnage

He also works together very closely with the Kharadron in the latest Gotrek novel. I don't want to spoil too much here in case people haven't read it, but suffice to say the KO realize he's an important and inspiring figure there, and he seems unexpectedly happy to be working together with them. That gives me Dawi United vibes too.

[King Under the Mountain]

2 hours ago, Beliman said:

 

Let's see this from another point. My KOs don't want to be the Air Temple of Lumineth with two pages of rules to play as their own. I want to play as a whole Lumineth army, with my own temples (sub-themes) and my own Great nations (Skyports). I want 60 pages of lore talking about KOs story, updated with the the last Broken Realm events, with descriptions about our guilds (sub-themes) and cities (sub-factions).

 

This right here is exactly how I feel and I don't think Pro-Soup people understand (with all due respect).  Kharadron have so much fleshed out lore and a very very defined theme.  They don't even act like the typical Dwarf when it comes to royalty and religion. 
The Ogres and Orcs factions both had unifying themes that made them easy to mesh together which wont be as easy for the KO if at all possible without throwing the KO's belief system out the window.  


Game wise there is so so much they can do with a Skyfaring Steampunk inspired civilization and it has a very unique aesthetic that ties the whole Army together.  Which is honestly really important to me.  There are many crazy kit ideas they could come up with if they really wanted.

Anyway no matter what happens I'll will keep having my Barak-Zilfin as a stand alone fleet. The way I play is very narratively and I built a story in my head around these awesome little Dwarfs and while I'm enjoying the storyline GW is doing, they won't abandon the Code just because some magic god like Dwarf is trying to unite them with their ground based cousins.

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by King Under the Mountain

[stratigo]

30 minutes ago, Dawi not Duardin said:

He also works together very closely with the Kharadron in the latest Gotrek novel. I don't want to spoil too much here in case people haven't read it, but suffice to say the KO realize he's an important and inspiring figure there, and he seems unexpectedly happy to be working together with them. That gives me Dawi United vibes too.

Gotrek was an engineer once upon a time and really enjoys inventions

[Freypal]

Given all the buildup seemingly happening in WD, I wonder how long it will be before there is anything formal/teased on this....

[King Under the Mountain]

39 minutes ago, Freypal said:

Given all the buildup seemingly happening in WD, I wonder how long it will be before there is anything formal/teased on this....

It's hard to say with GW, they will tease something for years then randomly release something completely different.  I would bet it will take sometime before the 3.0 Battletomes release cycle heats up but I'm hoping we are one of the first few Battletomes. 

Going to guess we will get our first tease around Christmas. 

[Clan's Cynic]

4 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Well, it would definitely encourage people (especially  me) to mix and match some fyreslayers into their/my Dispossessed army.

 

Well you can already do that via Allies and things like Barak-Thryng.

[Skreech Verminking]

7 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

Well you can already do that via Allies and things like Barak-Thryng.

If they changed that rule to: for every 3units of Dispossesseds a unit of other duardins can be added to this army

it would be perfect

Edited June 25, 2021 by Skreech Verminking

[Warboss Gorbolg]

2 hours ago, King Under the Mountain said:

This right here is exactly how I feel and I don't think Pro-Soup people understand (with all due respect).  Kharadron have so much fleshed out lore and a very very defined theme.  They don't even act like the typical Dwarf when it comes to royalty and religion. 
The Ogres and Orcs factions both had unifying themes that made them easy to mesh together which wont be as easy for the KO if at all possible without throwing the KO's belief system out the window.  

I think that the themes of mercenary tendencies, classic duradin greed, settling grudges and taking back what was lost could be a logical foundation of greater cooperation. Religion and royalty are not required. 

Some Fyreslayers lodges will take contracts with anyone for the right price, even Chaos, unless this was written out of the second battletome. 

[King Under the Mountain]

6 minutes ago, Warboss Gorbolg said:

 

Some Fyreslayers lodges will take contracts with anyone for the right price, even Chaos, unless this was written out of the second battletome. 

Might be on to something but just wanted to say, coming from Fantasy this was probably my least favorite change to Dwarfs/Duradin in Age of Sigmar.  I really hope whatever form Fyreslayers take in the future (independent or more likely a sub-faction) will downplay them working for Chaos.  I dont care how much Ur-Gold they have. 

[Warboss Gorbolg]

This was a big turn-off for me as well initially, but after reading the entire battletome I was ok with it. My recollection is that it presents a wide range of views for Fyreslayers collecting ur-gold, from it being a sacred duty to get closer to Grimnir to pragmatic views, including working for, or fighting literally anyone being the most extreme.

In general, I would say that GW tends to focus on the worst of dwarven traits however. I was crazy excited when the Dwarfs omnibus was released for the world-that-was but even there, GW twisted positive themes of honor and duty into huge negatives, to the point that Thanes were threatening to kill human village infants/toddlers for generation old grudges or dying for really poorly conceived acts of honor (drowning by not taking off an ancestral helmet off or something similarly nonlogical/irrational). My favorites have always been dwarves and O&G but a lot of GWs writing for both tend to focus on the worst instead of the best.

Gotrek doesn’t count as he is his own thing.

 

[Doko]

I get 100% the point of people that dont want soup.

But the problem is that i dont see it as soup.

I see how a army of dwarfs was split in several nonsense mini armys in aos,as happened with white lions,phoenyx guard etc.

I see it how they only are doing as must have been at the start,a full army of dwarfs with dispossessed,ironweld,fyreslayers,kharadron all together in same army as allways had to be.

The nonsense of aos1.0 of break every army in multiple small armys was horrible and with citys,lon(or soulbligth)khaos revenant(i think is the same) and now i hope THE DWARFS tome they are fixing it.

 

So i dont see it how we are loosing something being souped,i see it how we are being fixed and winning something.

 

Again i see the point of antisoup players,i was the same when city of sigmar came as disspossesed player i felt the same.

But now one year later i cant be happier,it is tye best tome that i have(i have 4 armys) so much fun and with so many options.

Myself hate steampunk style and so i never got kharadrons,but now i gonna get some start collecting or something to mix to my fyres and dispos because even if i hate steampunk i dont mind if it only a small part of my army as were gyrocopters.

But again i get you point,if you really love your kharadrons,fyreslayers and you see them as diferent armys lorewise and now they are mixed and you loose 50% of your pages in next tome and very posible dont get nothing new(no new units i mean)

But as i said i see it as one same army that is being fixed and put in one same book and we are getting new units(fs getting ko units and ko getting fs units)

I dont know if i explained it well

[JustAsPlanned]

30 minutes ago, Doko said:

I get 100% the point of people that dont want soup.

But the problem is that i dont see it as soup.

I see how a army of dwarfs was split in several nonsense mini armys in aos,as happened with white lions,phoenyx guard etc.

I see it how they only are doing as must have been at the start,a full army of dwarfs with dispossessed,ironweld,fyreslayers,kharadron all together in same army as allways had to be.

The nonsense of aos1.0 of break every army in multiple small armys was horrible and with citys,lon(or soulbligth)khaos revenant(i think is the same) and now i hope THE DWARFS tome they are fixing it.

 

So i dont see it how we are loosing something being souped,i see it how we are being fixed and winning something.

 

Again i see the point of antisoup players,i was the same when city of sigmar came as disspossesed player i felt the same.

But now one year later i cant be happier,it is tye best tome that i have(i have 4 armys) so much fun and with so many options.

Myself hate steampunk style and so i never got kharadrons,but now i gonna get some start collecting or something to mix to my fyres and dispos because even if i hate steampunk i dont mind if it only a small part of my army as were gyrocopters.

But again i get you point,if you really love your kharadrons,fyreslayers and you see them as diferent armys lorewise and now they are mixed and you loose 50% of your pages in next tome and very posible dont get nothing new(no new units i mean)

But as i said i see it as one same army that is being fixed and put in one same book and we are getting new units(fs getting ko units and ko getting fs units)

I dont know if i explained it well

Sorry, but I really don’t understand your point of view that well.

Kharadron didn’t exist before they were an independent army? So they were never together with the others? And the Fyreslayers are the logical continuation of the Slayer design, sure, but I don’t recall the original dwarf armies having Magmadroths or Hearthguard in them. Aside from the orange hair and “slayers” in the name, they literally could not be further apart (as the Gotrek novels point out pretty often, to my knowledge).

It didn’t “always had to be”, in fact the ways in which both the Kharadron and Fyreslayers could have logically been expanded have been talked about in this exact thread, as well as others on this forum. Claiming that you “don’t see how you’re losing something” before then going on to acknowledge the flaws of souping - ie, having to lose a ton of lore pages and chances of your preferred side of the army not getting stuff for ages - is a bit odd in my mind.

Yeah, the FS players are getting KO units and vice versa (as well as potentially more Grungni-dwarf units), but that doesn’t mean they want them. I think it’s much more likely that most FS players want more FS units, and most KO players want more KO units. 

By the logic that these completely different factions (both in terms of gameplay and lore) should be together, would it not also make sense for the FEC to be absorbed into Soulblight? The Gloomspite into Orruk Warclans? The Beasts of Chaos into Slaves to Darkness? I get that this is. I get that this is your opinion and all, and that’s totally valid... but I really don’t understand it.

Edited June 25, 2021 by JustAsPlanned

[Doko]

As i said i get you point but seems you dont get mine.

But to me all are dispossesed

Fyreslayers are the slayers(even las white dwarf the designer of lore when speak about old campaign says that fyreslayers are the olds slayers) and so they are a part of dispossesed

Kharadrons were dispossessed that went to the air in the age of khaos,so even if the ko lore they are saying us that ko ARE disposseseds.

So i see kharadrons as the new wave of minis of dispossesed and fyreslayers as the redesign of slayers.

 

And yes to me goblins would be inside big wagh(every lore tell us how wags have goblins in them lol) and fec inside soulbligths(even nighaunts could be inside lol)

 

 

[Doko]

10 minutes ago, JustAsPlanned said:

By the logic that these completely different factions (both in terms of gameplay and lore) should be together,

Also i could say that dispos,free people,wanderers etc were also completely diferent factions(even diferent races lol) and each had 20 years of diferent lore but this didnt stop to soup then and those days they are one(maybe the most) of the most played factions and everyone love his new lore.

Just give it a chance to the new soup dwarf and im sure that you gonna love it in one year and never care for old lore or other reasons.

[JustAsPlanned]

1 minute ago, Doko said:

As i said i get you point but seems you dont get mine.

But to me all are dispossesed

Fyreslayers are the slayers(even las white dwarf the designer of lore when speak about old campaign says that fyreslayers are the olds slayers) and so they are a part of dispossesed

Kharadrons were dispossessed that went to the air in the age of khaos,so even if the ko lore they are saying us that ko ARE disposseseds.

So i see kharadrons as the new wave of minis of dispossesed and fyreslayers as the redesign of slayers.

And yes to me goblins would be inside big wagh(every lore tell us how wags have goblins in them lol) and fec inside soulbligths(even nighaunts could be inside lol)

...well I dunno what to tell you there man, because that’s just objectively wrong. The old dwarfs didn’t have a steampunk aesthetic, use airships, or forgo religion. Saying that they’re the same army for the reason you gave is an extremely tenuous connection at best. I’m sorry, but they just aren’t a new dispossessed wave.

Fyreslayers - as I said in my post - have the same base design and name as the old slayers, sure. But are they doomseeking suicidal maniacs who fight progressively bigger monsters in hopes of dying honourably, to earn forgiveness for a horrific act they committed? No, they’re Grimnir worshipping fire dwarves that hire themselves out as mercenaries so that they can collect magic god gold, that they can in turn hammer into themselves for magic steroids. They are very much not the same thing.

...No idea how to respond to that last part. Go off, ig.

2 minutes ago, Doko said:

Also i could say that dispos,free people,wanderers etc were also completely diferent factions(even diferent races lol) and each had 20 years of diferent lore but this didnt stop to soup then and those days they are one(maybe the most) of the most played factions and everyone love his new lore.

Just give it a chance to the new soup dwarf and im sure that you gonna love it in one year and never care for old lore or other reasons.

Difference is, those factions actually had a reason to be together - the Cities of Sigmar is the best example of soup in AoS, as it did manage to bring these disparate factions together without making any single one lose their identity in lore. With the Dwarf factions, they have already been established as radically different and independent from each other.  You can’t have a faction of atheists and theists together unless it involves one of them conceding to the other in some way, and I am not a fan of that idea. 

I’ve already accepted that the soup is happening, I’m just really not thrilled about it as it means that at least one faction is gonna have to lose a lot of identity, and as a big fan of several factions having distinct identities, it saddens me.

Oh and as for the “never care for old lore reasons”, you’re talking to the person that’s still salty the two unit-strong zombie micro-faction from the start of AoS never got expanded on. This one’s going in the book  

[Beliman]

@Doko  I get your point, but to me, it seems that you only look if they are Duardins/ Dwarfs from the same GA.

Btw, how do you see all Aelves and armies that use Aelven Souls? Lumineth, Umbraneth, Idoneth, DoK and Sylvaneth. Do you want to see them mixed in the same battletome too? Why?

Same with Humans/Mortals. They are the same, some of them just follow Nurgle, others follow Sigmar, some of them Khorne,... do you think that they need to be mixed? Why?

I know that this questions seems like a joke, but I just want to know what people think about the requirements that an army needs to be seriously accepted. What makes an army, a true standalone army?

[Doko]

10 minutes ago, JustAsPlanned said:

manage to bring these disparate factions together without making any single one lose their identity in lore.

My dispossessed only have one page in all the cirty book and they no longer live under mountains and live in citys now,so i would say that my dwarfs lost every identity in lore that they had ,but even with this i love the book.

Yes i dont like the lore of citys,but the playable aspect is so much better than i dont care the lore.

But i played general order armys in aos1.0 because i love play and collect many diferent units so maybe im a freak unique and nobody like the soups i dont know

[Doko]

4 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Btw, how do you see all Aelves and armies that use Aelven Souls? Lumineth, Umbraneth, Idoneth, DoK and Sylvaneth. Do you want to see them mixed in the same battletome too? Why?

Yes this is a hard one,because all are elfs but diferents.

In my opinion i dont see it as you says,khaos dwarfs are dwarfs but i never gonna put them together to dispo,ko or fs for example.

To me if you want my opinion:

Umbraneth\lumineths\dok could be the same army as in fact they were in old times.

But idoneths are specials,i could see them together dok but not lumis per example,and sylvaneths could be together teclis\tyriom\morathi\malekith army but i see them more as a separate army.

I see ko players feel ofended when i say they are dispos but,i have rodden his tome and if i remember rigth they are 100% dispos that they ran away from his undermountains citys to go to the air.

Yes they have evolved in tecnology and now they have grudged against gods,but they are dispos with new tech that forego gods.

I dont see how is so hard have ko together fs and dispos in a same army,they cant work together because each have diferent gods?

New orks follow mork and ironjawz follow gorko and i dont see people upset to get them in the same tome because they have diferent gods

[AlmGandix3]

As a mostly Dispossessed and old duardin guy( I also play orruk warclans with 99% Bonesplitterz), I would love to get a duardin warclans. For me it is a straight up win win and a dream come true. I read the new Gotrek Novels and all the eight lamentations books, so I for the most part got only glances at Fyreslayer and Kharadron lore, so for me duardin at their core still fit together. (KO only after the end of Gitslayer though)

I also really dont like how the two factions will probably lose lore pages as mentioned above. The then corresponding lower chance of new models down the line after the realese is also a huge downside. Hoping for those things not to happen and the thought of GW doing something different are not a good thing. I got a lot of disappointment from GW this year with their warhammer Fest reveals and how they handle some stuff rules wise regarding FAQ's and changes outside of new battletomes. If GW changes the formular of a warclans book it will be a welcome surprise, but I wont tell anybody to believe in them.

Rules wise Ironjawz and Bonesplitterz only gained something and I think the same will apply to duardin. Again this comes to a mostly dispossessed guy so I dont see the KO and Fyreslayer sides.