New dwarf army soon? Mixed dwarfs

[Baron Klatz]

11 hours ago, EchoHavoc said:

After this was posted on the warhammer community page. I think a combined battletome is on the cards in one way or another. 
 

It's a very interesting lore sandwich because it's right after the Cities are bonding with their duardin more and then gets put close to DoK and Deepkin who are close with knives at eachother's backs. (Which wouldn't be far off with the two duardin factions both being cut-throat mercs)

So it does feel like Dispossessed are staying with Cities which makes sense as their examples of mingling in with other races in the lore and adapting to the realms wouldn't work as well with a duardin-focused faction:

"Treelord Grundylach and Warden King Aedagrim are the joint  rulers  of  Karaznethil.  They  are  as  close  as  brothers,  and while stern when alone, they share inside jokes in each other’s  company,  grinning  beneath  their  beards.  Many  such  Sylvaneth-Duardin  pairings  exist  in  Karaznethil,  from  ‘Mossbeards’  who  grumble  away  the  days  together  to  Duardin  lineages  who  pledge  themselves  to  a  single  Noble  Spirit,  each  new  generation  befriending  each  new  reincarnation.

Refuges of the Realms, Pg. 4"

Other books show the Dispossessed employing everything from giant sloths to Dobkine insect cattle in serving as battlefield beasts of burden to the wood armored Rootkings of Ghyran building their holds in giant trees like the other mortals employ their own strange realm creatures and contraptions to adapt and survive compared to KO & FS who are more demigod-tier and would fit with a new Grungni force of empowered duardin warriors and  Gholemkin which all thrive in their realms rather than try to reclaim anything.

It's in part why I wouldn't actually mind a combined aelf tome in the far future either. If we can one day get 3 Realm Warriors battletomes that has 8 types of humans, aelves and duardins for each realm and companion keywords. When we have a force of fire samurai-gladiator humans fighting alongside beastly centaur aelves and Duardin life druids is when Age of Sigmar will truly have peaked.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Baron Klatz

[Clan's Cynic]

18 hours ago, Baron Klatz said:

It's a very interesting lore sandwich because it's right after the Cities are bonding with their duardin more and then gets put close to DoK and Deepkin who are close with knives at eachother's backs. (Which wouldn't be far off with the two duardin factions both being cut-throat mercs)

So it does feel like Dispossessed are staying with Cities which makes sense as their examples of mingling in with other races in the lore and adapting to the realms wouldn't work as well with a duardin-focused faction:

Refuges of the Realms, Pg. 4"

Other books show the Dispossessed employing everything from giant sloths to Dobkine insect cattle in serving as battlefield beasts of burden to the wood armored Rootkings of Ghyran building their holds in giant trees like the other mortals employ their own strange realm creatures and contraptions to adapt and survive compared to KO & FS who are more demigod-tier and would fit with a new Grungni force of empowered duardin warriors and  Gholemkin which all thrive in their realms rather than try to reclaim anything.

It's in part why I wouldn't actually mind a combined aelf tome in the far future either. If we can one day get 3 Realm Warriors battletomes that has 8 types of humans, aelves and duardins for each realm and companion keywords. When we have a force of fire samurai-gladiator humans fighting alongside beastly centaur aelves and Duardin life druids is when Age of Sigmar will truly have peaked.

Things like riding sloths seems more an example of "wayhey look at how whacky you can get with Your Dudes in AoS and how weird and vast the Realms are to help you justify it!" I also wouldn't read too much into Soulbound lore since it comes from a third party and GW will happily ignore it (or anything that isn't direct from the Studio, even). 

'Time served' doesn't feel like it really means much if GW want to get rid of you - I think most everyone's accepted the High Elf parts of CoS will not survive into a new book, assuming one ever happens.

If the Dawi get a soup book, I would fully expect the Dispossessed to go along with them, especially if it's in-universe doing is because of Grungi. It would be a bit weird if Fyreslayers and Kharadron line up behind him - one who worship a different god, the other who resent him - but not the one group who revere him.

I imagine the same will probably happen with the Wanderers whenever a new Sylvaneth 'Tome comes out if the Cursed City character is any indication. 

Edited May 27, 2021 by Clan's Cynic

[Nuriel]

1 hour ago, Clan's Cynic said:

Things like riding sloths seems more an example of "wayhey look at how whacky you can get with Your Dudes in AoS and how weird and vast the Realms are to help you justify it!" I also wouldn't read too much into Soulbound lore since it comes from a third party and GW will happily ignore it (or anything that isn't direct from the Studio, even). 

'Time served' doesn't feel like it really means much if GW want to get rid of you - I think most everyone's accepted the High Elf parts of CoS will not survive into a new book, assuming one ever happens.

If the Dawi get a soup book, I would fully expect the Dispossessed to go along with them, especially if it's in-universe doing is because of Grungi. It would be a bit weird if Fyreslayers and Kharadron line up behind him - one who worship a different god, the other who resent him - but not the one group who revere him.

I imagine the same will probably happen with the Wanderers whenever a new Sylvaneth 'Tome comes out if the Cursed City character is any indication. 

I'm still sad about it. Just call all leftovers from High Elves "Astraneth" or something and made them faction within CoS or merge them with Collegiate Arcane and Order of Azyr into well, Azyrheim battletome.

[Clan's Cynic]

One of the most lauded parts of both Kharadron 'Tomes was the world building, how fleshed out their society was, both the descriptions of the Sky-Ports, their Code, the numerous vessels that weren't models, nevermind how much fantastic art was in there.

Now imagine 2/3 of that torn out and thrown in the bin to make way for 1/3 Fyresayer and 1/3 Dispossessed, as well as the "SO THIS IS WHY THEY'RE SOUP'ED TOGETHER NOW..." explanation. Wouldn't be surprised if a few Sky-Ports literally went down in flames to make space too.

Fyreslayers were never as well developed so having half their fluff torn out wouldn't hurt quite as much, but it also means they likely wouldn't get space to actually develop it further to a similar quality either. 

Bottom's up.

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by Clan's Cynic

[Greybeard86]

2 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

One of the most lauded parts of both Kharadron 'Tomes was the world building, how fleshed out their society was, both the descriptions of the Sky-Ports, their Code, the numerous vessels that weren't models, nevermind how much fantastic art was in there.

Now imagine 2/3 of that torn out and thrown in the bin to make way for 1/3 Fyresayer and 1/3 Dispossessed, as well as the "SO THIS IS WHY THEY'RE SOUP'ED TOGETHER NOW..." explanation. Fyreslayers were never as well developed so having half their fluff torn out wouldn't hurt so much, but it also means they probably won't get space to actually develop it further to a similar quality either. 

 

I get it. I think it is important, though, that whatever remains after the souping and squashing gets support. If they are not ready to support it, don't keep it, it'd be just a trap.

[Mcthew]

1 hour ago, Clan's Cynic said:

One of the most lauded parts of both Kharadron 'Tomes was the world building, how fleshed out their society was, both the descriptions of the Sky-Ports, their Code, the numerous vessels that weren't models, nevermind how much fantastic art was in there.

Now imagine 2/3 of that torn out and thrown in the bin to make way for 1/3 Fyresayer and 1/3 Dispossessed, as well as the "SO THIS IS WHY THEY'RE SOUP'ED TOGETHER NOW..." explanation. Wouldn't be surprised if a few Sky-Ports literally went down in flames to make space too.

Fyreslayers were never as well developed so having half their fluff torn out wouldn't hurt quite as much, but it also means they likely wouldn't get space to actually develop it further to a similar quality either. 

Bottom's up.

 

Absolutely right. And lest we forget that Barak Thryng already allows duardin units to be part of a KO force (1 in 4). This isn't soup, but it's better than allies, and reflects a kinship at least with this Skyport and other duardin, which does not exist elsewhere in the KO skyports. The KO lore is explicit in that at times they are hostile to other duardin races. To combine them all in one battletome is a bad, and quite lazy idea.

But that hasn't stopped GW from doing it before, nor will that stop them doing it again.

[zilberfrid]

I was thinking, Grungni could lead a battletome.

Ironweld and Disposessed fit perfectly!

Just leave Kharadron and Fyreslayers out of it.

[King Under the Mountain]

On 5/28/2021 at 3:22 AM, zilberfrid said:

I was thinking, Grungni could lead a battletome.

Ironweld and Disposessed fit perfectly!

Just leave Kharadron and Fyreslayers out of it.

This is my dream as well.  I think KO and Fyreslayers have enough design potential to develop into large factions on their own.  

 

 

[Beliman]

On 5/27/2021 at 7:22 PM, zilberfrid said:

I was thinking, Grungni could lead a battletome.

Ironweld and Disposessed fit perfectly!

Just leave Kharadron and Fyreslayers out of it.

Fyreslayers and KOs could be 1 in every 4 units (maybe for just some Karaks). Btw, Fyreslyers can be expaned with awesome Lore too. They have everything to be awesome, they just need some people working on them.

[JustAsPlanned]

Maybe have there be a new Grungni focused Duardin faction that takes queues from the Ironweld and Dispossessed. Have a subfaction based in Aqshy that can take 1 in 4 Fyreslayers, and maybe another Chamon-based one that can take 1 in 4 Kharadron. Problem solved! Now Magmadroths can charge alongside big Airships and massive Dwarf cannons and what for whilst still being their own big, separate things. 

[King Under the Mountain]

7 hours ago, JustAsPlanned said:

Maybe have there be a new Grungni focused Duardin faction that takes queues from the Ironweld and Dispossessed. Have a subfaction based in Aqshy that can take 1 in 4 Fyreslayers, and maybe another Chamon-based one that can take 1 in 4 Kharadron. Problem solved! Now Magmadroths can charge alongside big Airships and massive Dwarf cannons and what for whilst still being their own big, separate things. 

This has been my dream since I got into AoS.  Do to old school Dwarfs what Realmlords did for High Elves.  Spiritual successor with heavy armored Dwarfs, massive cannons, Rune Lords and even some AoS high-fantasyness with large animate Golems. 

[Clan's Cynic]

On 6/1/2021 at 9:34 AM, JustAsPlanned said:

Maybe have there be a new Grungni focused Duardin faction that takes queues from the Ironweld and Dispossessed. Have a subfaction based in Aqshy that can take 1 in 4 Fyreslayers, and maybe another Chamon-based one that can take 1 in 4 Kharadron. Problem solved! Now Magmadroths can charge alongside big Airships and massive Dwarf cannons and what for whilst still being their own big, separate things. 

I think any new Grungi-faction will consolidate the existing Dispossessed line. If you look at their models, literally every Dwarf model that survived the CoS purge are sculpts from the 2014 Army Book - only the Wood Elf and End Times stuff is newer prior to AoS. I don't think that's a coincidence. This also gives them a way to write the Dispossessed 'out' of Cities of Sigmar so it can be retired into a Human-only Battletome ALA LoNagash becoming SBGravelords.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Clan's Cynic

[silverstu]

One of the most striking parts of that artwork for 3ed that was released was the Kharadron fleet overhead - it had clearly new ship designs- a larger ship and a massive one In the background. Kharadron are so strong a visual in AOS I can't see them disappearing or diluting. IF there is a combined duardin tome with a big model release I expect it be an AoS version of classic dwarfs but KO and Fyreslayers could get models too- the "big model" could be a larger KO ship for example, they could also try out something new for the Slayers. 

Really looking forward to seeing what they do for dwarfs - having seen those heavy paladins for Stormcast I could see them doing some fantastic heavy armour for dwarfs with ancestor faces and rune weapons. Plus the return of Artillery!! 

If they can keep or expandKo and Slayers within a Duardin Nations big fat book I'll have less of a problem with it. We still have the existing lore in any books that it replaces and that leaves space for new lore and art to come in. 

[Just to say obviously I'd prefer separate books and model releases for all the dwarf factions but if that can't happen I'm looking at the positives]. 

[EchoHavoc]

As I’ve said before KO are an iconic AoS faction. They feature heavily in the lore, plus they have a huge fan base. I don’t see them getting a combined battletome. I see them being left to their own devices.

Fyreslayers on the other hand are less popular and feature less in the recent lore. I can see them getting combined to boost sales.

[Doko]

Btw as i said in the rumor post:

Last white dwarf have told us that grugnir have reforged(revived) to grombrindal.

And he have done so grombrindal gonna be who gather together every dwarf race in a same army all together.

And he have told us the reason from lore to do it:

Fyreslayers: was a huge surprise but he told us that grinnir is alive but isnt ready to come back yet,so in place of his brother he gonna help them.

Kharadrons: he know that dwarfs dont forget grudges and he got a huge grudge when he left alone to the kharadrons in the era of khaos,this is the reason that he revived to grombrindral,because they wont follow him(grugnir due to grudges), but they gonna follow to the white dwarf.

[JustAsPlanned]

Yeah, as time goes on I have to concede that it’s looking more and more likely that we’re gonna get dwarf soup. Which is... not something I’m particularly happy about, as I’ve said before. However, because there’s no use wallowing around in grudges and throwing recriminations at everyone (or is there? That sounds pretty dwarfy to me...), what do y’all imagine the soup release/faction is gonna be like?

I can see something similar to Warclans or the Gloomspite happening, personally - that being, roughly 8-12 new kits for an all-new Grungni-themed subfaction (golems? gyrocopters? artillery?) with the Fyreslayers and Kharadron being lumped on. Then maybe somewhere further along in 3e they’ll get a single new hero model ala what they did with the Loonboss on Squig.

[Doko]

I havent high hopes.

A soup tome with only fyreslayers and kharadrons with the rule of 1 of each 4 can be duardin(so dispossessed and ironweld)

As new kits.....i think only gromgrindall and nothing more.

 

I wish we get more but after 7 years waiting for some new for fyreslayers i have lost every hope

[Dawi not Duardin]

6 hours ago, JustAsPlanned said:

Yeah, as time goes on I have to concede that it’s looking more and more likely that we’re gonna get dwarf soup. Which is... not something I’m particularly happy about, as I’ve said before. However, because there’s no use wallowing around in grudges and throwing recriminations at everyone (or is there? That sounds pretty dwarfy to me...), what do y’all imagine the soup release/faction is gonna be like?

I can see something similar to Warclans or the Gloomspite happening, personally - that being, roughly 8-12 new kits for an all-new Grungni-themed subfaction (golems? gyrocopters? artillery?) with the Fyreslayers and Kharadron being lumped on. Then maybe somewhere further along in 3e they’ll get a single new hero model ala what they did with the Loonboss on Squig.

I agree with this, especially with the Warclans comparison. Warclans lumps together two older but very loosely connected factions, and now there is a third one being added. That's pretty much exactly analogous to what you'd get if you were to lump  Fyreslayers and KO together then were to add a Grungni sub-faction.

The most interesting question here to me is really what the Grungni faction will look like. There are some options.

• One serious possibility if you look at the latest rumours and the fact that Grungni forged the Stormcast is Dwarfcast Eternals, with Grombrindal as the equivalent of the Celestant-Prime (and maybe at some point Gotrek as Yndrasta?).
• You can also easily imagine a Golem-based faction - there is already talk of "Gholemkind", though it's a bit unclear just what that is.
• It could also just be honest Dawi with axes and hammers and guns and so much grim determination that even Chaos will have to buckle. I think this is what I really would want, to be honest. IMO the most appealing trait of the classic Dwarfs - which also made them my main army way back when - is their absolute integrity. It'd be cool to see a throwback to that. No more being Dispossessed, it's time to quite literally retake the realms.
• Or, of course, you could have some combination of all these possibilities - or something entirely different...

Regardless of how it goes, I for one am all in favour of this. I like big army lists like Cities of Sigmar or Legions of Nagash - or, more classically, Orcs and Goblins or Empire army books. The mixing and matching you can do gives you the ability to customize your own force much more than what you can do with a smaller and more niche book. 

[stratigo]

9 minutes ago, Dawi not Duardin said:

I agree with this, especially with the Warclans comparison. Warclans lumps together two older but very loosely connected factions, and now there is a third one being added. That's pretty much exactly analogous to what you'd get if you were to lump  Fyreslayers and KO together then were to add a Grungni sub-faction.

The most interesting question here to me is really what the Grungni faction will look like. There are some options.

• One serious possibility if you look at the latest rumours and the fact that Grungni forged the Stormcast is Dwarfcast Eternals, with Grombrindal as the equivalent of the Celestant-Prime (and maybe at some point Gotrek as Yndrasta?).
• You can also easily imagine a Golem-based faction - there is already talk of "Gholemkind", though it's a bit unclear just what that is.
• It could also just be honest Dawi with axes and hammers and guns and so much grim determination that even Chaos will have to buckle. I think this is what I really would want, to be honest. IMO the most appealing trait of the classic Dwarfs - which also made them my main army way back when - is their absolute integrity. It'd be cool to see a throwback to that. No more being Dispossessed, it's time to quite literally retake the realms.
• Or, of course, you could have some combination of all these possibilities - or something entirely different...

Regardless of how it goes, I for one am all in favour of this. I like big army lists like Cities of Sigmar or Legions of Nagash - or, more classically, Orcs and Goblins or Empire army books. The mixing and matching you can do gives you the ability to customize your own force much more than what you can do with a smaller and more niche book. 

KO has a large amount of bespoke and flavorful rules that I don't think survives a merger.

 

And also, it's super insulting to throwaway merge dwarf armies when the game is "here's an elf faction. And an elf faction. Look forward to a third elf faction. And be prepared for a possible fourth elf faction"

[Dawi not Duardin]

3 minutes ago, stratigo said:

KO has a large amount of bespoke and flavorful rules that I don't think survives a merger.

 

And also, it's super insulting to throwaway merge dwarf armies when the game is "here's an elf faction. And an elf faction. Look forward to a third elf faction. And be prepared for a possible fourth elf faction"

I have no opinion on the rules question but I don't agree that it's insulting to merge the Dwarfs. It wasn't insulting to have one Dwarf book and three elf books back in WHFB. If anything, it just showed that the Dwarfs were more cohesive than the various elf factions. That just says something about the pointless elf infighting. They should have been united under Malekith all along.

But, jokes aside, I think this is going to be a case where people will have different preferences depending on what they are familiar with. Personally, I even disliked the split of army book Undeed into Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings back in WHFB. That's in part because I like larger books. But I'll admit it's also the nostalgia factor. I personally don't have much of an emotional connection to the Fyreslayers or Kharadron or Dispossessed under Sigmar(!), but a Grungni-centered faction is meaningful to me as an old-school Dwarf player in a way these never can be. It's really the same thing as what attracts people to the Lumineth as High Elf proxies.

With that in mind, it's probably going to be hard to please everyone here for GW. For any faction that ever was introduced, there's going to be someone who prefers it the way that faction was at some particular point. So I get that some people always will want the dwarf factions to stay apart, but... just expressing my own preference based on the above, Dawi United is what I'd like to see.

[Freypal]

Similar to the above... Old time Warhammer Fantasy Dwarf player myself.... I would personally be happy if they souped Fyreslayers and a new Grungni faction based around (and possibly including) the style of the dispossessed cities units. I can also see why people would be unhappy with the inclusion of KO in this soup although from a personal perspective it wouldn't necessarily bother me so long as the rules still make sense and there is a good narrative reason.

To me the idea conjurs up images of the old WFB roster but dialled up to 11. Armoured Dwarf foot soldiers, fantastic slayer models and hopefully some great war machines. Basically imagining what the current AoS sculpt standard could do with the old Dwarf roster is really exciting.

[Skreech Verminking]

9 hours ago, Doko said:

I wish we get more but after 7 years waiting for some new for fyreslayers i have lost every hope

The skaven feel your pain, mate

Edited June 25, 2021 by Skreech Verminking

[zilberfrid]

10 hours ago, Doko said:

I havent high hopes.

A soup tome with only fyreslayers and kharadrons with the rule of 1 of each 4 can be duardin(so dispossessed and ironweld)

As new kits.....i think only gromgrindall and nothing more.

 

I wish we get more but after 7 years waiting for some new for fyreslayers i have lost every hope

Perhaps Gotrek will get the Fyreslayer keyword...

[Skreech Verminking]

2 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

Perhaps Gotrek will get the Fyreslayer keyword...

Perhaps Gotreks gets his own alle go allegiance  abilities for all duardins to follow his unyielding carnage

Edited June 25, 2021 by Skreech Verminking

[silverstu]

1 hour ago, Freypal said:

Similar to the above... Old time Warhammer Fantasy Dwarf player myself.... I would personally be happy if they souped Fyreslayers and a new Grungni faction based around (and possibly including) the style of the dispossessed cities units. I can also see why people would be unhappy with the inclusion of KO in this soup although from a personal perspective it wouldn't necessarily bother me so long as the rules still make sense and there is a good narrative reason.

To me the idea conjurs up images of the old WFB roster but dialled up to 11. Armoured Dwarf foot soldiers, fantastic slayer models and hopefully some great war machines. Basically imagining what the current AoS sculpt standard could do with the old Dwarf roster is really exciting.

Yeah the idea of the old school dwarfs turned up to 11 is very appealing [and I love my KO]. Just to say that the Grungni story in WDis really great- how the Dawi are shown, how Grungni behaves and shows his power are fantastic. Very interesting that the Dwarf Underworlds are inaccessible to Nagash and that he knows Grungni is hiding something for him and is "cheating him like the others"..

The KO and Slayers not getting an update is a bit disappointing but I think its just the pressure of updating all the ranges - I think dwarf wise we are getting new Grungni/Grombrindal dwarfs and chaos dwarfs this edition. KO and Slayers might be more of next edition. The Grungni story celebrates both factions so I don't think they will be diluted/lost over time. I think 3rd ed will be good to the dwarfs!