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State Troop Detachment


AsraiR

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Hi folks, in a few places people seem to be of the impression that you can use the State Troop Detachment from the Empire legacy scroll with Freeguild units.

Have I missed something, as from my reading this wouldn't be allowed?

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You must follow the keywords. You might get away with turning Bonesplitters into Bonesplitterz but anything else is pushing it. Doesn't work for Bullgors who are no longer Minotaurs in the Bullgor Stampede formation (which is also pointed); doesn't work for Malekith; doesn't work for Empire gunline filth either.

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They went through the formations without considering whether they would be capable of being deployed or not. A lot of them don't work anymore because units have been renamed. What is clear is that you cannot willfully ignore keyword restrictions.

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30 minutes ago, SentinelGuy said:

Hopefully they update them asap

Most likely, it's the opposite. This battalion is just one of endless examples of poor overlap from the legacy warscrolls to the updated game. I get that they added the points and don't flat out ban them due to people still using their old armies, but the legacy warscrolls are generally poorly balanced, poorly worded, and poorly designed.

I'm completely with Nico on this one, I'd rather they just disappeared (at least from Matched Play). And that's coming from someone who owns Morathi and six Reaper Bolt Throwers.

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I'm the opposite. Not supporting the legacy armies is like cutting your nose off to spite you face.

GW already had to backtrack on AoS not having points costs, White Dwarf going back to it's original style and bringing back heavily reduced cost starter armies.

They lost a large chunk of players with AoS and then gained some back with the  General's Handbook. It wouldn't be rocket science for them just to properly update the legacy scrolls and keep up the good will. 

 

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I've played dozens of games and using the Disposessed Clan Throng battalion from the Dwarf Legacy compendium that requires two units of "Dwarf Warriors", a unit name that no longer exists, replaced simply by "Warriors" since Grand Alliance: Order came out, and nobody's noticed, cared or complained.

Old Empire units with new names shouldn't be any different. It's patently obvious what current warscrolls the units in the State Troop Detachment battalion correspond to (Empire General = Freeguild General, State Troops = Freeguild Guard),  I'd be happy to play against it in matched play using the current warscrolls, and if you're worried about using it at an event contact the organiser. There's nothing unclear about the way the legacy battalions are intended to be used, just GW's laziness to update them!

As a side note units who's keywords have changed are entirely different, and trying to for example use an ability belonging to a legacy Dark Elf character that only affects units with the Exiles keyword on a unit of Darkshards who no longer have the keyword on their updated warscroll is taking the **** imo.

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14 minutes ago, SentinelGuy said:

They lost a large chunk of players with AoS and then gained some back with the  General's Handbook. It wouldn't be rocket science for them just to properly update the legacy scrolls and keep up the good will. 

 

I hear this narrative a lot, and it simply isn't true. The financial report speaks for itself - AoS was a huge financial success prior to the release of General's, and outsold what WHFB8 had done for a span of several years. AoS is growing into the biggest GW game across gaming clubs, LFGSs, GW's own stores, internet communitues at an alarmingly fast rate.

If the legacy stuff were to be even reasonably balance, it would have to be completely updated to the new game. To do this when it's so clearly a minority that still use their old armies completely unconverted or unchanged, compared to releasing new stuff that are surefire successes (look at Sylvies, both Orc books, Fyreslayers - both the hype and the players picking it up are through the roof).

AoS isn't 8th edition. It's time to either let it go, or play 9th Age. Shoehorned band-aids only hurt the game long-term.

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Not sure what financials you've been looking at. The amount of product being shifted is down. If it was such a huge success shouldn't the quantity of kits sold be going up? Profit has remained pretty much the same and less kits are being sold overall. That's hardly the huge success GW thought was going to happen. All that work and no real difference.

I'd also argue that the reason you saw few legacy armies before was because a lot of players just didn't play the game without points. Now that GW have caved and added points (something they said wouldn't happen) you better prepare to see more legacy armies. The GH has been a success and should draw back a fair few old gamers.

The next 6 months are going to be very interesting.

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I'm a Freeguild player and I use this formation pretty much every game I play in matched play. The logic I follow is; 1. I choose the battalion and the units I want in it (say 1 unit of Empire Archers, 1 unit of State Troopers, 1 unit of Handgunners, Outriders, and an Empire General), next the FAQ says I must play with the most up-to-date Warscroll for each unit, and so my State Troopers become Freeguild Guard and my Empire General becomes a Freeguild General etc etc.

There might be a flaw in that reasoning but ultimately if it's listed with a points value, that's telling me it can be used in Matched Play.

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3 hours ago, Payce said:

I hear this narrative a lot, and it simply isn't true. The financial report speaks for itself - AoS was a huge financial success prior to the release of General's, and outsold what WHFB8 had done for a span of several years. AoS is growing into the biggest GW game across gaming clubs, LFGSs, GW's own stores, internet communitues at an alarmingly fast rate.

That's not really what the financial report said. They reported that by the end of the FY it was selling at a faster rate than WHFB had enjoyed for several years. That doesn't mean AoS has already outsold WHFB's total from the past few years, just that in the few months to FY close (so perhaps the Ironjawz) AoS was selling better than WHFB had done in a similar time frame at any point over the past few years. It's still good news of course.

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Old Empire units with new names shouldn't be any different. It's patently obvious what current warscrolls the units in the State Troop Detachment battalion correspond to (Empire General = Freeguild General, State Troops = Freeguild Guard),  I'd be happy to play against it in matched play using the current warscrolls, and if you're worried about using it at an event contact the organiser. There's nothing unclear about the way the legacy battalions are intended to be used, just GW's laziness to update them!

As a side note units who's keywords have changed are entirely different, and trying to for example use an ability belonging to a legacy Dark Elf character that only affects units with the Exiles keyword on a unit of Darkshards who no longer have the keyword on their updated warscroll is taking the **** imo.

What are you talking about? It is completely subjective saying one of these things is worse than the other. Why is Malekith now redundant, but you get to use your broken Empire gunline filth (which never should have been allowed to exist)? This is precisely why you cannot open the door to keyword stretching like this. Next it will be the Flesh Eaters trying to bring back the Strigoi Ghoul King with his bonkers command ability or the Charnel Pit Formation. 

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Personally, I wouldn't do it, but when there's a battalion called "Bullgor Stampede" that can't take Bullgors, clearly common sense must prevail?

And I've got 18 of the buggers!

I feel your pain. I nearly bought a whole Bullgor army to do a Bloodscorched Bulltribe, which will never get points for tournament use.

I would be very hesitant to invest in an army only to rock up to a tournament and find the formation you rely on isn't legal - someone will challenge it and the TO will be hard pressed to allow it.

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34 minutes ago, Nico said:

What are you talking about? It is completely subjective saying one of these things is worse than the other. Why is Malekith now redundant, but you get to use your broken Empire gunline filth (which never should have been allowed to exist)? This is precisely why you cannot open the door to keyword stretching like this. Next it will be the Flesh Eaters trying to bring back the Strigoi Ghoul King with his bonkers command ability or the Charnel Pit Formation. 

I'll use broken Empire gunline filth and pay a whopping 120 points for the privilege thank you very much. ;)

In the AoS FAQ GW states that if a unit has multiple versions of it's warscroll players are encouraged to use the latest version. For all intents and purposes in the eyes of GW, the webstore url for the models and any sane AoS player the "Empire State Troops" warscroll in the Empire Warscroll Compendium and the "Freeguild Guard" warscroll from Grand Alliance: Order onwards are the same unit, comprised of the same models, with updated rules and keywords, and in this case an updated name. Freeguild Guard/Empire State Troops are as much the same unit as the "Bleakswords" included in the Dark Elf Warscroll Compendium and the "Bleakswords" in GL:A are - updated warscroll, just with a new name. "Freeguild Guard" are clearly not brand new unit made from the existing Empire State Troop kit in the same way that "Crypt Flayers" are from the Crypt Horrors/Varghiests kit, nor are Empire State Troops a legacy warscroll in the same way as Dwarf Miners or Dark Elf Shades - if either of these options were the case "Empire State Troops" would have a separate points value listed for matched play in the General's Compendium alongside the entry for Freeguild Guard and not have been replaced by it. tl;dr: "Freeguild Guard" and "Empire State Troops are two different versions of the same warscroll with different names.

I never said Malekith was redundant, but if you're playing using the most recently published warscrolls and he wants to use his Absolute Power command ability on a unit of Dark Riders he now won't be able to as Dark Riders, as of their current/most recent warscroll no longer have the Exiles keyword. Similarly if I wanted run a unit of Freeguild Guard in an army lead by Marius Leitdorf they would be unable to benefit from his command ability as they no longer have the State Regiment keyword their previous warscroll "Empire State Troops" did. While keywords can be used for the purpouse of batallion selections (eg Gordrakk, Fist of Gork standing in for a garden variety Megaboss because he's got the Megaboss keyword) Warscroll names are not keywords - if they were many warscrolls would not contain the unit's full name in it's keyword box for example the Abhorrant Ghoul King on Zombie Dragon's keywords don't contain the model's full name, simply separate keywords for Abhorant Ghoul King and Zombie Dragon - the "Royal Family" battalion in the Flesh Eater Courts Battletome specifically requires an Abhorant Ghoul King on Zombie Dragon or Abhorant Ghoul King on Terrorgheist to lead it, and based on keyword selection alone, neither of these units exist.

If a Flesh Eater Court player wanted to use the "Strigoi Ghoul King" (the name of the Vampire Counts legacy compendium version of the Abhorant Ghoul King warscroll) they'd need to inform their opponent/check with the tournament organiser that it was ok to do so. The Charnel Pit battalion is fair game -obviously if you're using the latest warscrolls for units the aformentioned Strigoi Ghoul King would become an Abhorant Ghoul king, but there'd be nothing stopping you.

 

Interestingly legacy special characters, with the exception of Ikit Claw and Vilitch the Curseling, who's generic replacements became carbon copies, and Krell, who lost an attack after being demoted to Wight King with Black Axe seem to have been spared having their warscrolls updated to plane jane versions according to the General's Handbook points values - Belagar and Grimm Burlockson for example have their own legacy point values despite being the official models for the (much weaker) Warden King and Cogsmith. GW like their special characters I guess!

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Fundamentally the formation has required units, which are specified by keywords (or where GW have been sloppy they are inadvertently specified by unit names). Your Freeguild units that have points don't have these keywords; nor do they have the unit names either. This isn't going to fly unless your opponent specifically allows you to use them. Considering that it's filth, your opponent would be wise not to do so. Where legacy stuff does still fit together with the new stuff (maybe half the time give or take), that's a bonus, but it doesn't allow you to rewrite or add keywords to jam the new or renamed stuff back into the old formations.

 

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I 100% agree with @bottle and @SentinelGuy . I re-read the entire 32 (?) investor deck last week and it was clear that there was an initial spike in AoS, however; sales were not where they forecasted, with December being significantly below expectation. While you can argue that AoS has re-invigorated the fantasy community, you could also argue that if they put this much effort into WHFB... we might have also seen a boost. What saved GW's ****** last year was the licensing of their worlds. 

I'll also agree that bringing back points also brought me back to GW. I played narrative AoS, didn't like it, and moved to other miniature games such as Frostgrave (and almost invested into SAGA). 

 

19 hours ago, AsraiR said:

Hi folks, in a few places people seem to be of the impression that you can use the State Troop Detachment from the Empire legacy scroll with Freeguild units.

Have I missed something, as from my reading this wouldn't be allowed?

 

Back to the original topic. The Freeguild Regiment is worth 100 points and Empire Detachment is worth 120 points under Matched Play... and I haven't been able to justify either of them. 

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43 minutes ago, Nico said:

Fundamentally the formation has required units, which are specified by keywords (or where GW have been sloppy they are inadvertently specified by unit names). Your Freeguild units that have points don't have these keywords; nor do they have the unit names either. This isn't going to fly unless your opponent specifically allows you to use them. Considering that it's filth, your opponent would be wise not to do so. Where legacy stuff does still fit together with the new stuff (maybe half the time give or take), that's a bonus, but it doesn't allow you to rewrite or add keywords to jam the new or renamed stuff back into the old formations.

Nico, I don't mean to be rude, but I get the impression that you didn't read my previous post explaining that compendium Empire warscrolls and their current Freeguild counterparts are different warscrolls with different names for the same units, that the "Freeguild General on Griffon" and "Freeguild Archers" aren't new units, but old units with a new warscroll that contains a new name, in the same way that Tehenhauin is now a "Skink Starseer", with a new name and new keyword; and that keywords can be as of the AoS FAQ be used for the purpose of battalion composition selection (for example Gordrak's Megaboss keyword), but are not used for the purpose of battalion composition selection exclusively, as many battalions list required units by their full name, and the unit's full name is not included on it's warscroll (for example, Auric Runefather on Magmadroth, Prosecutors with Stormcall Javelins).

It's worth adding that while you consider the State Troop Detachment battalion "broken Empire gunline filth", under maxed out matched play conditions it's actually broken redundant Empire gunline filth most of the time: If you're going to use the formation to stack three units of handgunners (clearly the filthiest available Freeguild shooting option) hitting on a basic 5+, taking advantage of a Freeguild General's filthy hold the line command ability for +1 to hit (and wound!), not moving because the aforementioned command ability doesn't let them for another +1 to hit, in units of 20 or higher because why would you not take as many of them as possible, they're pure filth for a further +1 to hit they're already hitting on 2s, making the battalion's +1 to hit bonus redundant in normal conditions under matched play's 2nd Rule of One. ;)

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I think stickning to keywords are the way to go. AoS doesn't really have that many rules, do we have to stretch the few that's there? I'm not even sure I think Bonesplitters=Bonesplitterz. If a formation says to use unit A with a certain keyword, and you take a unit with _another_ keyword, you´re stretching it.

I really cannot see the problem with this? Some of the old stuff can still be used, other battalions simply fade into history. It's not like you cannot use the models anymore.

On another note, I think it's veird to see people bashing AoS and AoS sales on the TGA forum. Keep it positive please.

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45 minutes ago, Ratatatata said:

On another note, I think it's veird to see people bashing AoS and AoS sales on the TGA forum. Keep it positive please.

I wasn't bashing AoS as such, just stating the point that sales haven't been significantly different to before it was released.  Since when did stating a fact become the wrong thing to do?  There's being positive - like stating the General's Handbook is a good step in the right direction, and then there's willful blindness to the faults that AoS/GW has.

Anyway, it was in defense of older gamers wanting to use their older models to play AoS.  Surely telling new people to the forums that if you use old models then you aren't really welcome to play AoS is the worse thing?  That's like turning around and saying "take you stinking old Dark Elves army and do one because we don't want your kind here."  That kind of elitist attitude isn't going to help the game in any form.

This idea that you can either be a Fantasy gamer or an AoS gamer sit's uncomfortably for me.  GW themselves just reboxed most of their kits with new bases and gave them a new name.  Why can't people use the old armies in AoS?  Half the models are the same for a start and there's no way that the points are 100% balanced for the new stuff - stonehorn and thundertusk are 2 examples of arguably over powered units that haven't been toned down in the updated Raider list.

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