An effective army without character buffs?

[Kirby]

I'm out of thanks for the day, but appreciate all the ideas.  Please keep them coming ^^

[Lord Krungharr]

2 hours ago, idn0971 said:

They very much do at least the gutbuster half. To do well you have to buff the foot ogors with spells and command abilities from the subfaction of your choice and the slaughtermaster.

Ironguts just need FOOOOOOD!  They do way better with spells and the Slaughtermaster random pickins', but don't need them to butcher just about anything.

[zilberfrid]

3 hours ago, LuminethMage said:

Lumineth have a spell to snipe the Hekathos (unit champion) though, and then the units can't use their RDP. : ) . 

Of course they do.

[Joseph Mackay]

24 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

Of course they do.

Hey now, Bonereapers are immune to Total Eclipse, Lumineth needed another way to mess with them instead 😛

[zilberfrid]

4 minutes ago, Joseph Mackay said:

Hey now, Bonereapers are immune to Total Eclipse, Lumineth needed another way to mess with them instead 😛

Yeah. Ossiarch were the previous attempt, also killing entities and messing with CP. Less on ranged deleting without even an option to save though.

[LuminethMage]

1 hour ago, zilberfrid said:

Of course they do.

Agreed! Anything else would be a travesty. 

But like Josh wrote, OBR are immune to some of our other abilities, and this hasn’t been rectified since MONTHS.

I’ve already written a very sternly worded mail to GW about this inconsiderate situation. 

[NinthMusketeer]

Don't know if it has been mentioned, but Nurgle. Blightkings are extremely self-sufficient, and tbh the most effective way to run Nurgle right now is spam them and/or marauders. A couple characters to allow for the Blight Cyst battalion and you are free to swamp the board with 1500+ points of blightkings. Throw a GUO in if you like, who does a support character thing with his bell but that only matters for movement up front rather than long-term babysitting. And the GUO himself is certainly quite happy to tar pit enemy units on his own.

[Popisdead]

I wonder how effective 120 Sisters of the Watch would be when you get rolling the dice.  30 MWs a turn and 117 saves to make will get through saves in that quantity...

[Joseph Mackay]

22 hours ago, LuminethMage said:

Agreed! Anything else would be a travesty. 

But like Josh wrote, OBR are immune to some of our other abilities, and this hasn’t been rectified since MONTHS.

I’ve already written a very sternly worded mail to GW about this inconsiderate situation. 

On a serious note, I’m actually disappointed they didn’t faq Total Eclipse to work on Bonereapers 😂

[NinthMusketeer]

If they actually had to cast it on an 8 that would be one thing, but Lumineth have the tools to ensure it will go off every round without much trouble. It would be essentially writing a rule saying 'OBR auto-lose vs Lumineth'.

[zilberfrid]

34 minutes ago, NinthMusketeer said:

If they actually had to cast it on an 8 that would be one thing, but Lumineth have the tools to ensure it will go off every round without much trouble. It would be essentially writing a rule saying 'OBR auto-lose vs Lumineth'.

OBR's alternate command points were designed just to not be weak to their own version of removing opponent's command points.

But a rule stating some factions auto lose vs Lumineth would not change much and speed up those matches, so it wouldn't be as bad as it may seem.

[NinthMusketeer]

I think you are underestimating how tremendously unfun it would be for the OBR player to have their core allegiance ability cut in half by a spell. OBR eat the downsides of relentless discipline not being command points, on a very basic level it is only fair that they get the upsides too. If that was not the design intent they would have left it as CP. (Also, I don't get what you are referring to in terms of immunity.)

I know there is a lot of anti-OBR resentment because of the old Petrifax, and Katakros/Pratorians now, but letting one army easily cripple another's allegiance mechanics is not good game design.

[yukishiro1]

OBR already get destroyed by Lumineth. The matchup is so bad that even if you take the specifically anti-magic sub-faction, you're still at a significant disadvantage, which is kinda amazing when you think about it. 

[zilberfrid]

4 hours ago, NinthMusketeer said:

I think you are underestimating how tremendously unfun it would be for the OBR player to have their core allegiance ability cut in half by a spell. OBR eat the downsides of relentless discipline not being command points, on a very basic level it is only fair that they get the upsides too. If that was not the design intent they would have left it as CP. (Also, I don't get what you are referring to in terms of immunity.)

I know there is a lot of anti-OBR resentment because of the old Petrifax, and Katakros/Pratorians now, but letting one army easily cripple another's allegiance mechanics is not good game design.

I can't get to OBR's rules anymore, but they can remove command points, right? (Checked, wasn't as bad as I remember, not half as bad as Lumimeths).

I agree that factions removing another's allegiance ability is bad, which is why I don't like command point removal. Also don't like targeting models instead of units, or making battleshock more miserable for the other while not bothering with it yourself.

Ossiarch and Lumineth do all of that, and you basically need their books to play against them.

In essence, I don't like armies simply discarding the basic rules.

[NinthMusketeer]

I think there is a threshold where breaking the rules goes from a fun, unique army mechanic or standard design feature to... just too much. So while I may not agree with all the details of your position I definitely agree with the concept behind them.

Edit: Also for you or anyone else wondering; OBR have two ways to remove CP. One is an artifact that tbh is barely worth mentioning because there are multiple others that are better and even those are only after the mandatory one from sub-faction. The one you are probably thinking of is Katakros, who once per turn when an opponent gets a CP can negate it on a 4+ (provided Katakros is above 60% wounds) but doesn't affect starting CP. Katakros is generally agreed upon to be in need of a points increase, because of the sheer amount of stuff he brings to the table.

Edited April 10, 2021 by NinthMusketeer

[zilberfrid]

5 hours ago, NinthMusketeer said:

I think there is a threshold where breaking the rules goes from a fun, unique army mechanic or standard design feature to... just too much. So while I may not agree with all the details of your position I definitely agree with the concept behind them.

Edit: Also for you or anyone else wondering; OBR have two ways to remove CP. One is an artifact that tbh is barely worth mentioning because there are multiple others that are better and even those are only after the mandatory one from sub-faction. The one you are probably thinking of is Katakros, who once per turn when an opponent gets a CP can negate it on a 4+ (provided Katakros is above 60% wounds) but doesn't affect starting CP. Katakros is generally agreed upon to be in need of a points increase, because of the sheer amount of stuff he brings to the table.

Ah yes. I forgot about Katakros. A 2001 points cost, like Cathaller and Sentonel should have, is acceptable until tyeir warscrolls are rewritten.

[Joseph Mackay]

On 4/10/2021 at 5:13 AM, NinthMusketeer said:

I think you are underestimating how tremendously unfun it would be for the OBR player to have their core allegiance ability cut in half by a spell. OBR eat the downsides of relentless discipline not being command points, on a very basic level it is only fair that they get the upsides too. If that was not the design intent they would have left it as CP. (Also, I don't get what you are referring to in terms of immunity.)

I know there is a lot of anti-OBR resentment because of the old Petrifax, and Katakros/Pratorians now, but letting one army easily cripple another's allegiance mechanics is not good game design.

Every other army is affected by Total Eclipse the same way Bonereapers would if it also applied to them, it wouldn’t be ‘unfair’ to bonereapers anymore than it is to everyone else. Bonereapers also generally get more RDP than everyone else gets command points so I don’t really see the problem 

[NinthMusketeer]

Everyone else gets to use the command abilities from the core rules, from matched play, and from realmscape rules. OBR don't. Everyone else gets to benefit from terrain/scenario/realm rules that benefit CP use, OBR don't. When it would be beneficial for relentless discipline to work like CP, OBR do not get that benefit while every other army does. So yes, it is entirely fair that the inverse would be true as well.

I think any Lumineth player who wants eclipse to work against OBR should let their opponent take a spell which doubles the amount of aetherquartz they have to spend to activate their allegiance mechanic. If the Lumineth player is willing to do that then I will say they have fairness in mind.

Again, I really get that OBR generated/generate a lot of resentment. But that is something which needs to be kept separate from balancing.

Edited April 11, 2021 by NinthMusketeer

[Fellman]

Sones of Behmat and Beastclaw raiders dont do mutch buffing just smaching and grabbing objektivs

[NinthMusketeer]

44 minutes ago, Fellman said:

Sones of Behmat and Beastclaw raiders dont do mutch buffing just smaching and grabbing objektivs

Being largely illiterate they heard "buff characters" instead of "character buffs" 😆

[readercolin]

Some possible armies:

Cities of Sigmar.  There are a TON of different ways to play them, and while most (and the most effective) versions involve having some buffing hero's, not every build needs them.  Some of the best units without buffs are Phoenix Guard, Sisters of the Watch, Eternal Guard, Scourgerunner Chariots, and shadow warriors.  You can also get some interesting results from Monster Mash with Hydra's/Kharibdyss, or spamming Demigryph Knights or Pistoliers.  

Stormcast Eternals.  The "meta" lists that run Anvils of Heldenhammer and try to double-tap people require hero's, or try to mortal wound out the board with Stardrakes and Incantor + comet are going to struggle against hero sniping.  However, you can still be effective with something like a Gav-Bomb, as your relevant hero and hard-hitting unit will be sitting in the sky and be able to avoid on board damage.  Heavy Cav lists with Evocators (on kitty) and Dracothian Guard lists also are relying more on the power of individual units and not the synergy, which can make them useful.  Note, if it is just individual units that you want to push the power on, you can also stick just those units in a Cities shell.

Kharadron Overlords.  The power here isn't in the hero's, its in the ships and the mobility.  As long as you still have your ships, and can jump anywhere on the board, you should be able to concentrate your firepower on picking apart your opponents army.  This being said, if your opponents have ways of burning through your ships fast, it can be an issue, and KO also have a problem actually holding objectives while keeping enough concentrated gunpowder.  

Tzeentch.  Here, it is less about having an army that isn't dependent on the hero, and more about being able to get a 1 drop list.  And then you can go in and wreck your opponent with the standard flamer list and give them a taste of their own medicine.

Ogor Mawtribes.  Specifically, looking to run a beastclaw raider list, and just run a bunch of stonehorns.  Yes, the list is rather concentrated, but at the same time, each body is powerful enough to be pretty independent.  

Sons of Behemat.  You have giant... giants, and their power is pretty concentrated.  Your opponent also isn't going to be burning through the 35 (or whatever it is) wounds each of your big giants have.

All this being said, if your primary issue is facing against Lumineth deleting your hero's, I would say that Tzeentch or KO are your strongest counters, with a focus on eliminating their hero's first and then working through the rest.  If you don't want to switch away from your cities though, you can look to add a few units that are more independent to your list and work from there.