what about the bladelords

[jeanfluflu]

hey guys, i' like to open this topic to talk about the bladelords.

On paper they look really good, the 2" attacks combined with their polyvalence guarantee that they could at least be somewhat useful.
At 130pts for 5 people, 10 wounds and potentially occupying a battleline they are a great complement to the wardens.

As i understand them, wardens are better n e defensive role as long as you keep shining company formation. They can also attempt to cast a spell to buff themselves or even anothe unit (speed of  Hysh?).

Bladelords on the other hand want to charge, can't try to cast but are good bodyguards for our precious heroes (scinari cathalar i'll die for you!).

The way i imgaine them is to be a counter charge/ second line unit, cracking an aetherquartz combined with the furry of blows can be really efficient against hordes (2+ to hit, 3+ to wound it can do wonders against low to average saves without bonuses) and the brilliant "perfect strike" allows for very good damages against elites (imagine a group of 10 or even 2 groups of 5 doing 12 auto-hits wounding on a 2+ with -2 rend).

I'm initially playing a lot of stormcasts and the vanari parts of the lumineth is something that can really brings something new to the table to me (and the miniatures are goregeous i'm not gonna lie) so i plan to bring 10 of those on the table.

What's your opinion on these? Are they worth it or do you prefer dawriders in this role?
I fear that with the new ballistas and the battallion going with it shooting style elves are still going to be somewhat really powerful and could outshine close combat troops but there's things to do.

Edited April 3, 2021 by jeanfluflu

[LuminethMage]

I played with 10 against a CoS list with some Stormcast. They do what you’d expect. 5 were a nice bodyguard for my Loreseeker, which was crucial for winning the game, but didn’t do much besides dying. The other 5 fought a bit - killed a Chariot in one phase, and 2 Sequitors in the next phase (the rest of the Sequis ran off from battleshock because my poor opponent rolled a six, and their bravery was debuffed). 

They are a good bodyguard unit, but I don’t think they are better than either Warden or Dawnrider for offense. No spells, no Sunmetal ability, and no speed compared to Dawnriders. To be honest all their special attacks are kind of unnecessary. They are pretty boring or overly complicated without the normal interaction you have with all the other Vanari units. 

On the other hand, what’s good about the Perfect Strike is its reliability, you know almost exactly what you can expect. That’s pretty good, and they have that over the other units which can be more swingy.  

If you like them, you can make a few - like the 10 you mentioned - of them work just fine, they are good as bodyguards, and not useless in battle either. I think taking them as your main battleline isn’t really competitive, but will look great, and probably will be good enough for more casual games : ) 

[Joseph Mackay]

The only thing I think is wrong with Bladelords is the missing Sunmetal ability despite having Sunmetal weapons. Being Vanari, maybe they should also be wizards as per the other units? But as I’m used to running Stoneguard that isn’t a big deal to me but would be nice to have

[Tiberius501]

Yeah I find it strange they don’t have spells or sunmetal abilities. I’m assuming they wanted them to be primarily a bodyguard unit and wanted to keep them cheap as they are primarily more wounds for your heroes. So giving them more abilities just to die and not really use them would be wasted.

In practice though they seem kinda boring sitting around as an extra wounds pool.

[jeanfluflu]

8 hours ago, LuminethMage said:

I played with 10 against a CoS list with some Stormcast. They do what you’d expect. 5 were a nice bodyguard for my Loreseeker, which was crucial for winning the game, but didn’t do much besides dying. The other 5 fought a bit - killed a Chariot in one phase, and 2 Sequitors in the next phase (the rest of the Sequis ran off from battleshock because my poor opponent rolled a six, and their bravery was debuffed). 

They are a good bodyguard unit, but I don’t think they are better than either Warden or Dawnrider for offense. No spells, no Sunmetal ability, and no speed compared to Dawnriders. To be honest all their special attacks are kind of unnecessary. They are pretty boring or overly complicated without the normal interaction you have with all the other Vanari units. 

On the other hand, what’s good about the Perfect Strike is its reliability, you know almost exactly what you can expect. That’s pretty good, and they have that over the other units which can be more swingy.  

If you like them, you can make a few - like the 10 you mentioned - of them work just fine, they are good as bodyguards, and not useless in battle either. I think taking them as your main battleline isn’t really competitive, but will look great, and probably will be good enough for more casual games : ) 

yup that was my initial thoughts, thanks for confirming that, for slightly more expensive points they are no better than the wardens, and if you want to kill hordes, well dawnriders can do it wherever you want (28" move) and with great reliability too (crack your aetherquartz to hit on 2+).

I'll buy them to get extra wounds on mages (the cathalar seems to important to lose) and have some fun on the painting.

Thanks a lot for your anwsers!

[whispersofblood]

What sorts of hordes are people fighting? The only ones I see are like witches on a 4+, Ard Boyz on a 4+ Mortek Gaurd and skinks I'll never get to fight. 

I just think Bladelords are a unit without a role to fill. 

[Skreech Verminking]

4 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

What sorts of hordes are people fighting? The only ones I see are like witches on a 4+, Ard Boyz on a 4+ Mortek Gaurd and skinks I'll never get to fight. 

I just think Bladelords are a unit without a role to fill. 

Like for example the kinds of armies true Chosens of the horned rat play😜

[Aelfric]

25 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

I just think Bladelords are a unit without a role to fill. 

Perhaps, if 3.0 does happen, their role may become more evident.  They'd be good against Skeleton and Zombie hordes, certainly, and they are not far off.  I've been wondering if doubling down on them may work with 15 using their 2" reach perfect strike accompanied by a hero for bonuses.  It is consistant reliable damage you can plan for.

[whispersofblood]

9 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Like for example the kinds of armies true Chosens of the horned rat play😜

lol everyone knows you never get to fight the clanrats most important unit in the army. 

[Siegfried VII]

9 hours ago, Aelfric said:

Perhaps, if 3.0 does happen, their role may become more evident.  They'd be good against Skeleton and Zombie hordes, certainly, and they are not far off.  I've been wondering if doubling down on them may work with 15 using their 2" reach perfect strike accompanied by a hero for bonuses.  It is consistant reliable damage you can plan for.

I had the same thought and did some mathhammer and the result was dissapointing..

15 Bladelords with perfect strike score 11.48 damage on a 4+ save unit. That is 360pts

30 Wardens without power of hysh on score 17.36 damage on a 4+ save unit.

30 Wardens with power of hysh on score 24.61 damage on a 4+ save unit. Again 360pts

The difference is so great it hurts my weary heart.. 😛 

I mean if Wardens have power of hysh (which they should) they do double (!) the damage..  

[Aloth_Corfiser]

@Siegfried VII Thanks for the Info! 😃 Have you factured in the Moonfire Flask? That would be the icing on the cake in that regard. 

Edited April 5, 2021 by Aloth_Corfiser

[Siegfried VII]

1 hour ago, Aloth_Corfiser said:

@Siegfried VII Thanks for the Info! 😃 Have you factured in the Moonfire Flask? That would be the icing on the cake in that reagrd. 

No I didn't.. These stats are without taking into account the moonfire flask because it is a one use trick, but if we add it too then yes it gets even more offending.. 😅

EDIT: Also I would like to add that the stats of the Wardens are not against a unit that has charged them.. if we added that and the moonfire flask the damage would be approximately 30 against a 4+ unit. I just opted not to use it again because it is highly situational..

Edited April 5, 2021 by Siegfried VII

[Kirby]

As mentioned above by @LuminethMage the two benefits of the bladelords are: reliable damage output; and their bodyguard abilities.

An unmodifiable 5 out of 6 wounds being shrugged is huge.  

As a COS player, I'd much rather take my chances with charging them than the wardens, because again I can accurately predict cost/benefit.

I'd love to see <GUARDIAN> become a keyword in 3.0.  Perhaps, unit size restrictions would have to apply similar to the COS Honoured Retinue

 

Edited April 5, 2021 by Kirby
Draft 1 misinterpreted the rules

[jeanfluflu]

i think we can ahve an anwser right there too:

 

"they look pretty" is probably the best we can get about them to stay polite :D.
Ultimately they are really not that useful outside of the bodyguard ability they have (which is basically "pay 130pts to give +10 wounds to a character").

 

[Aelfric]

9 hours ago, Siegfried VII said:

I had the same thought and did some mathhammer and the result was dissapointing..

15 Bladelords with perfect strike score 11.48 damage on a 4+ save unit. That is 360pts

30 Wardens without power of hysh on score 17.36 damage on a 4+ save unit.

30 Wardens with power of hysh on score 24.61 damage on a 4+ save unit. Again 360pts

The difference is so great it hurts my weary heart.. 😛 

I mean if Wardens have power of hysh (which they should) they do double (!) the damage..  

All that is true, unfortunately.  However, given the prevelance of negatives to hit and 3+ saves or better,  there are still situations where they would do well.  No doubt the Wardens' ability to cause MW will still place them ahead though, since MWs ignore both minus to hit and saves.  They do have the 4+ against spells, which I suppose is something.

Well, at least their Guardian ability has some uses and they will be a battleline unit, which helps in some scenarios. 

Another bonus, of course, is they don't have 4" pikes.

Perhaps, what they really are is a small scalpel, of 5 - 10, to be air-dropped in to deal with specific threats, rather than facing all-comers and holding objectives like wardens.

I know I'm reaching, but I want them to work in some capacity.

[Siegfried VII]

23 minutes ago, Aelfric said:

All that is true, unfortunately.  However, given the prevelance of negatives to hit and 3+ saves or better,  there are still situations where they would do well.  No doubt the Wardens' ability to cause MW will still place them ahead though, since MWs ignore both minus to hit and saves.  They do have the 4+ against spells, which I suppose is something.

Well, at least their Guardian ability has some uses and they will be a battleline unit, which helps in some scenarios. 

Another bonus, of course, is they don't have 4" pikes.

Perhaps, what they really are is a small scalpel, of 5 - 10, to be air-dropped in to deal with specific threats, rather than facing all-comers and holding objectives like wardens.

I know I'm reaching, but I want them to work in some capacity.

Apart from the bodyguard rule, Wardens do everything better.. heck they don't even need power of hysh to outperform the Bladelords.. and while the 4+ save against magic is neat the fact they're not good makes them one of the last choices for a target for enemy spells. And if they act as bodyguard they just receive the mortal wounds from spells that hit the mage they're guarding.

I hear you about the pikes.. they are a nightmare to play with and transport and I was desperate too not to have to use them but the sad truth is  Wardens are our only unit that deals consistently damage and our highest damage dealing unit at the same time.. I even tried recently Stoneguard builds, x3 Mountain builds and it is just not the same..

Even mountains are so swingy.. I played a battle vs Cities and when I came up against some Longbeards with Avelenor my enemy just rolled a couple of 4ups more and Avalenor did only 2 damage from the mortal wounds.. And for the same points again Wardens do double the damage  with double the number of wounds, with 30 models for obectives vs one etc

If they don't fix Bladelords and give them sunmetal weapons or at least drop them to 100 pts we are stuck with Wardens whether  we like it or not..

Edited April 5, 2021 by Siegfried VII

[jeanfluflu]

1 hour ago, Siegfried VII said:

Apart from the bodyguard rule, Wardens do everything better.. heck they don't even need power of hysh to outperform the Bladelords.. and while the 4+ save against magic is neat the fact they're not good makes them one of the last choices for a target for enemy spells. And if they act as bodyguard they just receive the mortal wounds from spells that hit the mage they're guarding.

I hear you about the pikes.. they are a nightmare to play with and transport and I was desperate too not to have to use them but the sad truth is  Wardens are our only unit that deals consistently damage and our highest damage dealing unit at the same time.. I even tried recently Stoneguard builds, x3 Mountain builds and it is just not the same..

Even mountains are so swingy.. I played a battle vs Cities and when I came up against some Longbeards with Avelenor my enemy just rolled a couple of 4ups more and Avalenor did only 2 damage from the mortal wounds.. And for the same points again Wardens do double the damage  with double the number of wounds, with 30 models for obectives vs one etc

If they don't fix Bladelords and give them sunmetal weapons or at least drop them to 100 pts we are stuck with Wardens whether  we like it or not..

about that i thought that the perfect strike should do an amount of damages equal to the amount of wounds the target enemy unit has (with a maximum of 3 damages), it makes sense from a lore perspective ,these guys aim for a weak spot and one shot one of their opponents in a deadly strike.
It makes them more and more efficient against big foes as damage ramp up with wounds (stormcasts, orruks, cavalry units...etc)

Also if the fury of blows should have rend1 to really have an impact i think with the same stats (stormcasts decimators have this stat-lines and are one of the least played paladin units).

Of course with this buff they should cost more points (let's go with 170pts per 5) but i think they should be a threat to enemy elites and be considered as the experienced swordman they are supposed to be.

Edited April 5, 2021 by jeanfluflu

[Aelfric]

1 hour ago, Siegfried VII said:

If they don't fix Bladelords and give them sunmetal weapons or at least drop them to 100 pts we are stuck with Wardens whether  we like it or not.

So points adjustments may be the answer - Bladelords down to 100, Wardens up to 140 and it starts to become a realistic choice.  Assuming 3.0 is coming, this battletome will have been written with that in mind, so that may also alter the dynamics, though what changes would make Bladelords better I have no idea.  Maybe we'll go back to unbinding at 18" instead of 30" or bravery will go 40K style.  We can only wait and see.  

Something may appear in the FAQ, like the sunmetal ability.  It wouldn't be the first time a whole ability was missing from a warscroll.

[Siegfried VII]

56 minutes ago, Aelfric said:

So points adjustments may be the answer - Bladelords down to 100, Wardens up to 140 and it starts to become a realistic choice.  Assuming 3.0 is coming, this battletome will have been written with that in mind, so that may also alter the dynamics, though what changes would make Bladelords better I have no idea.  Maybe we'll go back to unbinding at 18" instead of 30" or bravery will go 40K style.  We can only wait and see.  

Something may appear in the FAQ, like the sunmetal ability.  It wouldn't be the first time a whole ability was missing from a warscroll.

Making the Wardens expensive won't solve anytning. You can't make something good my making another thing bad. Wardens are not broken,, they're fine as they are in points. Making the Bladelords 100pts won't fix their problems but will make them a less expensive choice.. Because at 300 pts for 15 Bladelords you can then compare them to 20 Wardens for 60 pts more making them a much more appealing choice than they are now..

The best solution though is giving them Sunmetal Weapons rule. Then not only they become better, but make the Lord Regent a much more viable choice and giving them something to synergize with.. I won't get my hopes high but I really hope the ability was missed from the warscroll .. 🙂 

Edited April 5, 2021 by Siegfried VII

[LuminethMage]

Yeah me too. I think originally they had more on their warscroll, which was toned down in the end. So I don’t think they’ll get it, but I sent in for an FAQ, along with caster question. Hopefully they’ll get it, and all perfect strikes count as 6s of course 😁

 

[Ragest]

Baldemasters will be bad even at 90 points. They just don't have enought damage, just made for bodyguarding.

[Chumphammer]

tbh I will be taking 5 Blade lords just as guadians for my Cathallar.

Shes usually got the silver wand and in Zietrec, so her being the center for Protection of Hysh and throwing out her spell or total eclipse also is a solid center part of my army. Giving her 10 more wounds that can hit also is a must for me to keep her alive 

other than that I would rather have stoneguard 

[stratigo]

On 4/4/2021 at 2:21 AM, Tiberius501 said:

Yeah I find it strange they don’t have spells or sunmetal abilities. I’m assuming they wanted them to be primarily a bodyguard unit and wanted to keep them cheap as they are primarily more wounds for your heroes. So giving them more abilities just to die and not really use them would be wasted.

In practice though they seem kinda boring sitting around as an extra wounds pool.

XD Maybe GW realized sunmetal weapons were a mistake, but the other units are too new for them to remove without a lot of player rage.

 

I mean, I can only hope, sunmetal weapons are really dumb and GW needs to stop handing out mortal wounds like candy.

[Siegfried VII]

6 hours ago, stratigo said:

XD Maybe GW realized sunmetal weapons were a mistake, but the other units are too new for them to remove without a lot of player rage.

 

I mean, I can only hope, sunmetal weapons are really dumb and GW needs to stop handing out mortal wounds like candy.

Personally lore-wise I find the sunmetal weapon ability very fitting as a way to incorporate the precision strikes of aelven warriors.

The only case where it is perhaps annoying is on the Sentinels but if we look at the damage output it is not greater than what other armies can do with their shooting options. Ultmately damage is damage so while some people may want to roll their saves if the damage at the end is the same, does it really matter?

[woolf]

1 hour ago, Siegfried VII said:

Personally lore-wise I find the sunmetal weapon ability very fitting as a way to incorporate the precision strikes of aelven warriors.

The only case where it is perhaps annoying is on the Sentinels but if we look at the damage output it is not greater than what other armies can do with their shooting options. Ultmately damage is damage so while some people may want to roll their saves if the damage at the end is the same, does it really matter?

agree, the only thing that I can completely understand ppl having an issue with sentinels is their ignore LoS rule, so you cant hide from them. pure dmg output per point doesnt seem overly oppressive from them as you say