General Lumineth Realm Lords Rules Discussion

[Benkei]

17 hours ago, Ragest said:

Talking about money is the same as talking about points. So that will be more fair if I stop Archaon with Teclis? Will be more fair if I Autolose vs Gargants and Archaon lists? We are good letting unbeteable lists being on rampage around the game becasue you have invested some points and you want that points to be unstoppable?

If you want Lumineth lists to lose without being capable of doing anything just say it, and don't hide your desires.

Serious lol of a post. Honestly, most "arguments" from LRL players in this thread are at worst absurd and at best laughable, from this absolute idiocy right here to hyperbolic statements like "you just want LRL to lose without being able to do anything" to "some loose sense of fairness in a competitive game" (I guess this guy is ok with the game not being fair as long as he is playing the unfair stuff) nonsense. Surely if there is nothing wrong with the army the players should be able to use logical and reasonable arguments? 

Edited March 27, 2021 by Benkei

[zilberfrid]

I'm going to step away now. I don't have a bone in this fight (I think GW is bad at anything on paper except artbooks and don't play the game), this is not a discussion that's going to change anything and it isn't one that is making my life better.

I hope GW one day will learn to write rules as well as they design models.

[whispersofblood]

15 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

Huh? I wasn't talking about using Mighty Destroyers to charge, bud. I was using the example of a Maw-Krusha crossing the board by using Mighty Destroyers to move 24" in a turn, i.e. something with an enormous threat range. I was just commenting on how Sevirith's current ability wording lets him easily escape something that fast. Obviously the last thing you'd want to do is sit within 12" for the situation you described to happen, but I was talking about how even a unit that can cross the board in a turn wouldn't be able to charge him easily. 

I think you should re-read my post. I might not have worded it the best, but I was making two separate points - one about the 2.9" tagging with his other ability and how it can be abused further with the current wording of Spirit of the Wind (i.e. even if you retreat from him, he can just move 12" to get within 6" and do it again, or move away from a different unit that is about to charge him) and one about how even super fast units (like a Maw-Krusha that double moves) would still have massive trouble catching him in combat. 

Appreciate the hostility though which you won't apologise for and will just let it float around in the internet forever 🙄

So your example is two completely separate and mutually exclusively situations.

 

The range example is easily resolved Charge anything, retreat+run, pile-in from 4" fight, and kill (Depending on your IJ build Mawcrusher can cover between 28" and 30" on average and up to 33 and 35" at peak). And can be done by anything with the IRONJAWZ keyword.

In the 2.9" example the Hurukan units aren't eligible to pile-in from 6" they can move 6" when they pile-in its the bad bonus pile-in not the Sisters of Slaughter version. So your second point is just wrong on its face.

It is a perfect example of why the rule isn't what you are describing, it just takes a moment's thought to resolve a solution. But that all ignores that a 300 point model that does 4 dmg from range isn't worth the effort to chase around the board.

But thanks for doubling down on rules you don't seem to know.

[whispersofblood]

19 minutes ago, Svalack said:

I have zero knowledge of high elf or lumineth background. Narratively what makes a loreseeker able to infiltrate an army? 

I don't think he's got a particularly good warscroll, the rules just seemed random to me. The changeling infiltrating makes sense but I think even orks aren't stupid enough to not notice an elf in bright white armour in the middle of their ranks?

Loreseekers are just that, they seekout powerful artefacts and arcane knowledge dubbed by the Lumineth as too dangerous to be in the wild, which leads to the rule about enemy artefacts and the random CP it generates *shrug*. They are loners for the most part and operate independently of LRL forces. In WHFB he would have had a rule that meant he couldn't be the general or something, but AoS doesn't tend to do those sorts of rules. They are actually quite fluffy in a very wholistic way... Loreseekers say everything you need to know about LRL haha

They are LRL James Bonds basically. 

[Howdyhedberg]

Some intense heat here!

I'm a casual player and haven't tried my 2000 point list, and probably never will, because those games seem to take forever for a causal like me.

I understand how people can feel that this army is "npe". There are many rules to keep in track of, and being able to do so much takes time, and it's a npe for myself too.

Playing CoS, I've felt npe or that's op in several armies. So in my perspective, it's just the game. But lrl seems to be able to do a lot for that stuff.

 

 

 

[Sonnenspeer]

Npe is if your opponent is taking the last beer out of the fridge.

[Jaskier]

40 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

So your example is two completely separate and mutually exclusively situations.

 

The range example is easily resolved Charge anything, retreat+run, pile-in from 4" fight, and kill (Depending on your IJ build Mawcrusher can cover between 28" and 30" on average and up to 33 and 35" at peak). And can be done by anything with the IRONJAWZ keyword.

In the 2.9" example the Hurukan units aren't eligible to pile-in from 6" they can move 6" when they pile-in its the bad bonus pile-in not the Sisters of Slaughter version. So your second point is just wrong on its face.

It is a perfect example of why the rule isn't what you are describing, it just takes a moment's thought to resolve a solution. But that all ignores that a 300 point model that does 4 dmg from range isn't worth the effort to chase around the board.

But thanks for doubling down on rules you don't seem to know.

Yes, I was speaking about two different situations, because I was making a broad point about how there are different ways to abuse the current wording of that rule and why I'm certain it will get Errata'd shortly. The first example was how you can be exacerbate it's already strong 2.9" tag potential by re-tagging the same unit even after it retreats from you - or just moving away from a different unit that has been moved into position to charge you - and the second example was using one of the fastest melee threats in the game - the double-moving Maw-Krusha - to show how a 12" move in the enemy shooting phase can render that mobility moot if the Spirit is the target of choice. That's why I mentioned I may have worded it poorly, but that was my intent. I wasn't making a commentary on Ironjawz/Big Waaagh specifically, I was using the double-moving Maw Krusha as an example because I've been on the receiving end numerous times and it's as good an example as any to use. I'm assuming if I'd just spaced my sentences, or used Slaanesh Seekers as the speed example instead, we wouldn't be having this silly argument. 

You do not need to explain how Mighty Destroyers works to me, mate. I've played against Ironjawz and Big Waaagh plenty of times at GTs, local tournaments and tournament practice games. I was first introduced to the hero phase charge, retreat and pile-in when playing old Slaanesh, circumventing the old Locus rule. Once the Ironjawz are close it's all bets are off, obviously, but in the early game, that Maw-Krusha ain't just catching the Spirit out unless it wants to be caught out, the point being that you can't just alpha strike it with hyper fast assault units - even one that has a flying 24" move. Hell, even Seekers with their 14" move, 2D6" run, then 2D6" charge still would struggle to catch it without some big charge bonuses or good zoning! 

As to my second point, I'm going off of second-hand accounts of what others have said about the Hurakan battalion, and the implication was that they get to do their 6" pile-in even if they haven't charged. Depending on how that's worded exactly, it very well could let them do 6" pile-ins even if they aren't in engagement range, or just be worded so that if they are engaged then they can do the 6" pile-in as if they had charged. That's on me going off of rules that I don't know the exact wording of because I haven't seen it, but that was the implication I got from others regarding how the rule functions. If that's not how it works, that's great because it's another ability that is incredibly powerful and bordering on abusive in the right hands, not just for the Spirits but also for the Windchargers, the same way the Spirit of the Wind ability as worded is highly abusable. 

Just to recap, based off the information I have available to me, I was commenting on the ways the Spirits' rules could be abused, particularly with the current wording of Spirit of the Wind. If that's not how that battalion ability works - and we'll know soon enough thanks to man-reads-book - great! I'd be perfectly happy to say I was wrong about it once we get confirmation of how the exact rule is worded, but implying I don't know how to play the game because of the interpretation of a rule that's been disseminated to me from other sources...miss me with that. I'm not here to complain and whine about Lumineth being overpowered, I was pointing out how the current wording of Spirit of the Wind - particularly in conjunction with what I've been led to believe about the battalion ability - is something that should be fixed. I don't think anyone here would disagree that the ability should be Errata'd to only work in a friendly Shooting phase. 

Just to cap off, I caught your comment before you edited it, implying I don't know how to play the game. I appreciate the sentiment  It's nice to know that you can come to such a conclusion based off a post remarking on how the current wording of an ability can be abused, and how the implied (to me) wording of a battalion ability can be abused in conjunction with it.

 

Edited March 27, 2021 by Jaskier

[Beliman]

So, Sevireth is "immune" to being charged unless the enemy has something to charge 18", migty destroyers or any ability like that?

[whispersofblood]

1 minute ago, Jaskier said:

Yes, I was speaking about two different situations, because I was making a broad point about how there are different ways to abuse the current wording of that rule and why I'm certain it will get Errata'd shortly. The first example was how you can be exacerbate it's already strong 2.9" tag potential by re-tagging the same unit even after it retreats from you - or just moving away from a different unit that has been moved into position to charge you - and the second example was using one of the fastest melee threats in the game - the double-moving Maw-Krusha - to show how a 12" move in the enemy shooting phase can render that mobility moot if the Spirit is the target of choice. That's why I mentioned I may have worded it poorly, but that was my intent. I wasn't making a commentary on Ironjawz/Big Waaagh specifically, I was using the double-moving Maw Krusha as an example because I've been on the receiving end numerous times and it's as good an example as any to use. I'm assuming if I'd just spaced my sentences, or used Slaanesh Seekers as the speed example instead, we wouldn't be having this silly argument. 

You do not need to explain how Mighty Destroyers works to me, mate. I've played against Ironjawz and Big Waaagh plenty of times at GTs, local tournaments and tournament practice games. I was first introduced to the hero phase charge, retreat and pile-in when playing old Slaanesh, circumventing the old Locus rule. Once the Ironjawz are close it's all bets are off, obviously, but in the early game, that Maw-Krusha ain't just catching the Spirit out unless it wants to be caught out, the point being that you can't just alpha strike it with hyper fast assault units - even one that has a flying 24" move. 

As to my second point, I'm going off of second-hand accounts of what others have said about the Hurakan battalion, and the implication was that they get to do their 6" pile-in even if they haven't charged. Depending on how that's worded, it very well could let them do 6" pile-ins even if they aren't in engagement range, or just be worded so that if they are engaged then they can do the 6" pile-in as if they had charged. That's on me going off of rules that I don't know the exact wording of because I haven't seen it, but that was the implication I got from others regarding how the rule functions. If that's not how it works, that's great because it's another ability that is incredibly powerful and bordering on abusive in the right hands, not just for the Spirits but also for the Windchargers, the same way the Spirit of the Wind ability as worded is highly abusable. 

Just to recap, based off the information I have available to me, I was commenting on the ways the Spirits' rules could be abused, particularly with the current wording of Spirit of the Wind. If that's not how that battalion ability works - and we'll know soon enough thanks to man-reads-book - great! I'd be perfectly happy to say I was wrong about it once we get confirmation of how the exact rule is worded, but implying I don't know how to play the game because of the interpretation of a rule that's been disseminated to me from other sources...miss me with that. I'm not here to complain and whine about Lumineth being overpowered, I was pointing out how the current wording of Spirit of the Wind - particularly in conjunction with what I've been led to believe about the battalion ability - is something that should be fixed. 

Just to cap off, I caught your comment before you edited it, implying I don't know how to play the game. I appreciate the sentiment  It's nice to know that you can come to such a conclusion based off a post remarking on how the current wording of an ability can be abused, and how the implied (to me) wording of a battalion ability can be abused in conjunction with it.

 

The rule is freely available on War-Com and has been since the 23rd of March, if you're going to comment don't you think you have some responsibility to do some simple research? You can see how a failure to do so would lead a person to the imply you don't know other rules? Can I rely on you coming here and posting you were incorrect?

[Jaskier]

16 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

The rule is freely available on War-Com and has been since the 23rd of March, if you're going to comment don't you think you have some responsibility to do some simple research? You can see how a failure to do so would lead a person to the imply you don't know other rules? Can I rely on you coming here and posting you were incorrect?

There's a battalion ability that lets them do the 6" pile-in even if they haven't charged. The wording of that ability is critical, because either it will let them do it even if they aren't engaged, or it will let them do it only if they are engaged. Capiche? The implication I got from others was that it is the former situation, and if that turns out to be wrong, I will happily say I'm incorrect, because that would be better for the health of the game. 

At this point though, I don't care if I'm 'correct' (and frankly, I'd rather the battalion work the latter way.) I care that I made sure to mention I was talking about the alleged battalion ability in all three of my prior posts, and you clearly didn't read those parts because otherwise I wouldn't have had to point it out in a fourth post, yet you're accusing me of not being able to read, and making snide remarks about me not knowing my rules? I don't know if you're confusing me for someone who hates Lumineth and has been preaching how broken and over-powered they are, but this is just...I don't get the need for that sort of snideness from the word-go, mate, I really don't. 

Regardless, it also still doesn't change that being able to move 12" at the end of the enemy shooting phase is an incredibly abusable ability - particularly in conjunction with that battalion ability if it works as I've been led to believe - and I'm hoping it gets Errata'd. 

Edited March 27, 2021 by Jaskier

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

TL;DR for this thread for those just joining us now:

• "Playing against your Lumineth army is kind of a slog."
•  "No it's not! You win most of our games!"

[JackStreicher]

58 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

I'm going to step away now. I don't have a bone in this fight (I think GW is bad at anything on paper except artbooks and don't play the game), this is not a discussion that's going to change anything and it isn't one that is making my life better.

I hope GW one day will learn to write rules as well as they design models.

+1 well said.

[Souleater]

Personally, I am also annoyed ...maybe disappointed is a better word...at the amount of Elven and by extention, Order armies. 

[Long and uninteresting history as an Elfophile would go here. But let's just skip that]

 

Basically for forty odd years my RPG and wargame love has been elves and/or vampires. 

However, there's always been a trend to make elven sub races. We can blame the Scandinavians for kicking that off 🤔

Then Tolkien got everyone thinking about Wood Elves and blew the bloody doors off that metaphorical can of wyrms. 

Grey, Snow, High, Dark, Wood, Blood, Night, Dusk...players and writers both love making up new sorts of Elves. 

Back when I played D&D other races got in on the act; numerous variants of dragons, dwarfs, goblins, etc.

AOS isn't unusual in having several types of elf. But we now have three Aelven armies in the game, with some folks wanting at least two more IIRC.

That's a lot of design time and effort channelled into them.

 

It reminds me of Marines in 40k. Something I am very glad GW hasn't repeated with Stormcast.  SCE are favourite army in AoS, but we got some amazingly generous releases, so really don't need anymore.

I would rather see time spent on e.g. Skaven, Chaos Dwarfs, etc.

 

Which brings me to the next part of the problem. GW puts Aelves straight into Order, further widening the gap between GAs. 

I think of GAs as a fairly loose way of dividing up armies for the players.  They certainly aren't something that exists as a political entity in the Mortal Realms.

But that is how it is set up at the moment which means that Order keeps getting more releases when Aelves are just dumped into that faction.

 

As I have droned on about before (mad props to you if you're still reading this rubbish, by the way) GW could give themselves more creative freedom by putting Aelves into other factions.

 

You could have Sylvaneth wanting to tear down all the cities because they see them as a fertile soil for trouble.  Shadow aelves could wind up in Death, adding to that faction while ticking the box of *not* serving Nagash.

Because at the moment, we have lots of Aelves, the hint of yet more Aelves and Order hoovering up a chunk of releases kinda like the Imperium in 40k.

 

 

[Jaskier]

13 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

TL;DR for this thread for those just joining us now:

• "Playing against your Lumineth army is kind of a slog."
•  "No it's not! You win most of our games!"

Just to add to this, Honest Wargamer incorrectly listed a Lumineth list as winning a tournament recently, when the winner actually took Stormcast instead as he couldn't get his Lumineth out (I can't remember the exact reason) and I'm pretty sure I saw some comments about how it was more proof of how over-powered they are. Leading people to believe they're winning tournaments they didn't participate in, the Lumineth's power truly knows no bounds 😄

 

Just to clarify, there were Lumineth lists at the event, just not from the guy who won it. There was a beautiful Teclis conversion I wish I'd snagged a photo of. 

Edited March 27, 2021 by Jaskier

[madmac]

28 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

There's a battalion ability that lets them do the 6" pile-in even if they haven't charged. The wording of that ability is critical, because either it will let them do it even if they aren't engaged, or it will let them do it only if they are engaged. Capiche? The implication I got from others was that it is the former situation, and if that turns out to be wrong, I will happily say I'm incorrect, because that would be better for the health of the game. 

At this point though, I don't care if I'm 'correct' (and frankly, I'd rather the battalion work the latter way.) I care that I made sure to mention I was talking about the alleged battalion ability in all three of my prior posts, and you clearly didn't read those parts because otherwise I wouldn't have had to point it out in a fourth post, yet you're accusing me of not being able to read, and making snide remarks about me not knowing my rules? I don't know if you're confusing me for someone who hates Lumineth and has been preaching how broken and over-powered they are, but this is just...I don't get the need for that sort of snideness from the word-go, mate, I really don't. 

Regardless, it also still doesn't change that being able to move 12" at the end of the enemy shooting phase is an incredibly abusable ability - particularly in conjunction with that battalion ability if it works as I've been led to believe - and I'm hoping it gets Errata'd. 

Why on earth would you assume the wording on the battalion ability is any different than on the quote you were already provided? The battalion allows them to act as if they have charged, which is a rule state we already have the exact wording for and it doesn't match your assumption.

[whispersofblood]

Just now, Beliman said:

So, Sevireth is "immune" to being charged unless the enemy has something to charge 18", migty destroyers or any ability like that?

The short answer is no, you can't move up and charge it, as it can move in the shooting phase so be more than 12" away from you, unless you have a rule that lets you charge 3d6 and make charge rolls from 18" way.

The Long Answer is: Wind Spirits assuming they are shooting can be a maximum of 30" away. Meaning they can be quite difficult to pin down if they are being used as a gunboat. On the other hand they only do about 4 dmg a turn at range, so the LRL player won't be getting very much out of the model playing it that way other than as a kite style unit. 

So the first question is, do you care to kill it? I'm not sure its worth trying to kill, it is a very effective distraction piece as our history shows people get indignant about being shot at. If you are playing against it I probably would suggest ignoring it. Its basically a noob smasher, that offers some utility against models like Archaon where its dmg is useful.

If you want to trap it, I would suggest waiting until the late game when the board is a bit tighter. But really you should be focusing on killing Wardens and being thankful they didn't bring 10 more wardens and 10 more Sentinels. 

 

1 minute ago, Jaskier said:

There's a battalion ability that lets them do the 6" pile-in even if they haven't charged. The wording of that ability is critical, because either it will let them do it even if they aren't engaged, or it will let them do it only if they are engaged. Capiche? The implication I got from others was that it is the former situation.

The battalion says units wholly within 12" of a hero from the battalion counts a having charged for the Move Like the Wind rule. However to be eligible to pile-in you still need to be within 3" of a unit. 

[Jaskier]

3 minutes ago, madmac said:

Why on earth would you assume the wording on the battalion ability is any different than on the quote you were already provided? The battalion allows them to act as if they have charged, which is a rule state we already have the exact wording for and it doesn't match your assumption.

That's the thing, I've been led to believe by others that the way the battalion rule is worded was that it lets them do their pile-in even if they aren't in engagement range. It probably (edit; confirmed) isn't the case, but I also had no reason to doubt the info. I haven't seen all the leaks myself. 

Speaking of...

@whispersofblood Thank you I'm glad to hear it, and happily accept I was wrong. 

[Sprues&Brews]

Our Review of the new Battletome and Broken Realms Teclis is live!

Video here:

And full in depth write up over on there site here:

 

https://spruesandbrews.com/2021/03/27/broken-realms-teclis-and-new-lumineth-realm-lords-battletome-2021-review/

[Boar]

So apparently any Scinari wizard can concentrate (not cast any spells) for one turn to cast automatically (with roll of 9) and without possibility of unbind in next turn. Probably good in 1st turn where due to ranges there are less spells to be cast. Toughts?

Edited March 27, 2021 by Boar

[MitGas]

1 hour ago, Beliman said:

So, Sevireth is "immune" to being charged unless the enemy has something to charge 18", migty destroyers or any ability like that?

You know, I thought they'd rework Be'Lakor to be even cooler but I got the suspicion that his ability to mess up a character pretty reliably, which would really mess with Teclis or this furry archer clown, will be removed so that the little aelfs don't have to cry. 

Oh and why does the cloud mage look like an ape? That has to be the worst looking figure in recent years. The Blademasters do look great at least.

[JackStreicher]

27 minutes ago, Sprues&Brews said:

Our Review of the new Battletome and Broken Realms Teclis is live!

Video here:

And full in depth write up over on there site here:

 

https://spruesandbrews.com/2021/03/27/broken-realms-teclis-and-new-lumineth-realm-lords-battletome-2021-review/

thx for the review.

The core of the story was to be expected though... the usual happened concerning Nagash. It's disappointing imo

[rosa]

For me it is quite simple.

AOS is not my life and it is supposed to generate fun and not stress.

I just made the decision to refuse to play against LRL and also against Idoneth.

And if GW continues to write such bad rules I simply will quit playing overall.

This is not a threat. GW will be well without me. I know that. It's just that I don't want to spend time on something that is not fun FOR ME personally.

I so enjoy the models... I really love what GW is doing there... But the rules. Oh my.

Edited March 27, 2021 by rosa

[madmac]

33 minutes ago, MitGas said:

You know, I thought they'd rework Be'Lakor to be even cooler but I got the suspicion that his ability to mess up a character pretty reliably, which would really mess with Teclis or this furry archer clown, will be removed so that the little aelfs don't have to cry. 

Oh and why does the cloud mage look like an ape? That has to be the worst looking figure in recent years. The Blademasters do look great at least.

Are you really asking why the Monkey King reference has an ape mask? Really?

[Ganigumo]

2 hours ago, Jaskier said:

As to my second point, I'm going off of second-hand accounts of what others have said about the Hurakan battalion, and the implication was that they get to do their 6" pile-in even if they haven't charged. Depending on how that's worded exactly, it very well could let them do 6" pile-ins even if they aren't in engagement range, or just be worded so that if they are engaged then they can do the 6" pile-in as if they had charged. That's on me going off of rules that I don't know the exact wording of because I haven't seen it, but that was the implication I got from others regarding how the rule functions. If that's not how it works, that's great because it's another ability that is incredibly powerful and bordering on abusive in the right hands, not just for the Spirits but also for the Windchargers, the same way the Spirit of the Wind ability as worded is highly abusable. 

The issue with the hurikaans pile in isn't piling in from 6" away and fighting (I don't think they have access to that), it's the fact they don't need to pile in towards the closest model, which means they can pile out of combat.

The battalion counting them as having charged even when they havent means they can pile out 6" even when your opponent charges them, which puts them out of harms way from almost everything in the game. Its like the old skink/fury ability to retreat instead of fight.

[madmac]

7 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

The issue with the hurikaans pile in isn't piling in from 6" away and fighting (I don't think they have access to that), it's the fact they don't need to pile in towards the closest model, which means they can pile out of combat.

The battalion counting them as having charged even when they havent means they can pile out 6" even when your opponent charges them, which puts them out of harms way from almost everything in the game. Its like the old skink/fury ability to retreat instead of fight.

Sure, but whereas older Skinks were high-body count throwaway units that could be resummoned in every turn, Windrunners are expensive (130 points) fragile (2 wounds, 5+ save) units that still have to be activated first in combat in order to get away, which can be a tough choice if the LRL player is fighting or being forced to fight on multiple fronts.

They have a lot of movement trickery but it's all they do, really.