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RAW you cannot retreat and charge, however you need to allow for some considerations.

Firstly, the fluff surrounding the rule, that the Knights trample lesser foes in order to strike at priority targets, doesn't really align if they cannot retreat and charge. They may have retreat and charge elsewhere on the scroll; a subfaction may grant retreat and charge; or they simply wrote the rule poorly, once again, and will FAQ it.

 

Secondly, we are on the cusp of the 3rd Edition, where they are aiming to make rules less ambiguous. Currently a normal move includes retreating. In 3.0, there's a possibility they will be completely separate.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Elmir said:

Blood knight aren't allowed to run and charge though, just because they circumvent  the rules for not being allowed to move across models during a normal move...

Any normal move starting within 3" of an enemy is considered a retreat:

 image.png.06fae011e023b5ebc1751dbc517fb1eb.png

People are just intuitively assuming normal move means anything different than a move made in the movement phase... And that's quite clear on page 4 of the rulebook. 

image.png.1b245f670aad9f579d3c70447e6f12d4.png

Additionally, a normal move cannot end within 3" of an  enemy, so riding across a unit will be difficult at best, and you cannot move across any models is 3+ wounds, so no... you can't ride down characters hiding in the back. 

For some reason, the hype-bug has gotten into people's head so badly that they are misreading even the most basic rules spelled out loud and clear in the BRB...

And I don't consider that a success at all. It was already a fairly weak army... and it seems to be getting even weaker despite the warhammer community team doing it's best to hype it up. I already have a death army that only looks pretty on a shelf with my nighthaunt... Adding some more models next to that isn't exactly what I had hoped for. 

Yup, no one knows the rules for AoS 3, it’s sorta pointless going round and around based on AoS 2.0 when we DO know there are some major core rules changes incoming.

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Just now, warhammernerd said:

Yup, no one knows the rules for AoS 3, it’s sorta pointless going round and around based on AoS 2.0 when we DO know there are some major core rules changes incoming.

Feel free to cling onto that hope. It's an ember of it at least. I'm just hoping (like @Sception actually dare say out loud in these hype days) a 40% winrate army isn't actually nerfed compared to what it used to be. Because if you think a reliable 1CP faction defining ability can just be replaced with a dice roll for half the maximum result, you really are just clinging on to hope.  

The HWG didn't just meme this into existence out of thin air, some books really are getting neutered with their next iteration... These types of things only stick if tons of people actually go: "you know what, there's a solid core of truth in that". 

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14 minutes ago, Elmir said:

Blood knight aren't allowed to run and charge though, just because they circumvent  the rules for not being allowed to move across models during a normal move...

Any normal move starting within 3" of an enemy is considered a retreat:

 image.png.06fae011e023b5ebc1751dbc517fb1eb.png

People are just intuitively assuming normal move means anything different than a move made in the movement phase... And that's quite clear on page 4 of the rulebook. 

image.png.1b245f670aad9f579d3c70447e6f12d4.png

Additionally, a normal move cannot end within 3" of an  enemy, so riding across a unit will be difficult at best, and you cannot move across any models is 3+ wounds, so no... you can't ride down characters hiding in the back. 

For some reason, the hype-bug has gotten into people's head so badly that they are misreading even the most basic rules spelled out loud and clear in the BRB...

And I don't consider that a success at all. It was already a fairly weak army... and it seems to be getting even weaker despite the warhammer community team doing it's best to hype it up. I already have a death army that only looks pretty on a shelf with my nighthaunt... Adding some more models next to that isn't exactly what I had hoped for. 

The bold part only affects the "retreat-normal move" from the Riderd of Ruin ability.
If you give them Fly (ex.: Dark Mist), they can move or run (starting outside 3") over any other miniature, doing dmg in the process (even if it's just 1 horse) and without any care if the enemy has 4 wounds or is a monster.

Btw, that will only last for... a month? Maybe less with 3.0 on the horizon!

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9 minutes ago, Beliman said:

The bold part only affects the "retreat-normal move" from the Riderd of Ruin ability.
If you give them Fly (ex.: Dark Mist), they can move or run (starting outside 3") over any other miniature, doing dmg in the process (even if it's just 1 horse) and without any care if the enemy has 4 wounds or is a monster.

Btw, that will only last for... a month? Maybe less with 3.0 on the horizon!

That's true, buffing them with fly would allow them to run down heroes. 

 

But that being said, I'm happy some people at least know AoS 3 would need some rules rewriting before the new Blood knight ability works the way the HOPE it does. :)

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10 minutes ago, Elmir said:

But that being said, I'm happy some people at least know AoS 3 would need some rules rewriting before the new Blood knight ability works the way the HOPE it does. :)

Oh, yeah, it absolutely needs an faq, but I feel confident about the apparent intent and fully espect the faq to come down in their favor on this point.  For the same reason I'm confident that the mounted vamp lord option will remain even without a new model.  The Blood Knight kit's a big deal.  GW wants people to buy them.

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22 minutes ago, Sception said:

Oh, yeah, it absolutely needs an faq, but I feel confident about the apparent intent and fully espect the faq to come down in their favor on this point.  For the same reason I'm confident that the mounted vamp lord option will remain even without a new model.  The Blood Knight kit's a big deal.  GW wants people to buy them.

While that's a good point, I would say that if GW were desperate for people to buy them, all they'd have to do would be to give them -2 rend on the charge. 

That one simple addition, which is common for lance cavalry in other armies, would have made them an extremely valuable pick for most Soulblight Gravelord armies. 

From my perspective, that'd make the Blood Knight rules go from decent to good. Of course, that all depends on their points. 

And yeah, we've laboured that point enough, I don't want to start another rend discussion, it's just an example of where sometimes it seems to me GW is pulling in opposite directions at once.

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1 hour ago, Elmir said:

For some reason, the hype-bug has gotten into people's head so badly that they are misreading even the most basic rules spelled out loud and clear in the BRB...

I don't get why you feel the need to pretend that there is anything obvious about how Riders of Ruin is written and presented in that Warcom article.

Quote

Their heavy Nightmare steeds baulk at nothing, trampling over all but the largest of enemies when bidden. Have an opponent that likes to hide the juicy targets behind cheap screening units? They might as well not bother.

image.png.821091f869934394aeba37bdc1490b5b.png

The presentation sets the expectation that you will be able to skip over screens to charge other stuff. They basically spell it out.

If the rule is supposed to allow you to retreat over models, it's written extremely weirdly.

"If this unit is within 3" of an enemy unit, it can make a normal move... "

You can always do this according to core rules, so it is strange that the rule mentions this at all unless it's supposed to be a special ability. You would not (and GW rules writers usually do not) start abilities that trigger on charge with:

"If this unit is outside of 3" of enemy units in the charge phase, it can make a charge move."I

Other abilities that trigger on retreat are phrased as "When this unit makes a retreat..." , so the language is unusual.

If the intent of this rule is to allow you to just retreat over models, it is written and presented in the most confusing way possible. Really no reason to go "lol, nobody knows basic Aos rules except me. you idiots are all caught up in the hype and can't read rules anymore".

Yeah, we get it by now. This rule needs an erratum/core rules chage to let you retreat and charge. It was also revealed literally yesterday. If you want to feel superior for spotting that right away, have fun. I know that I didn't, and it was partially because I looked deeply into the janky retreat rules before and thought this specific rule let you skip the part where the normal move becomes a retreat.

And while we are at it, the whole bin guy/sin guy thing is garbage, too. There is no reason to suspect it's really how GW rules writing works, and especially no reason to conclude that "not obviously broken" implies "not sin guy" implies "bin guy" implies "trash book".

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This poor horse has been to badly beaten that I don't even think the necromantic powers from the Gravelords could bring it back. 

Annnnnnyways, I think the biggest things I want to see (aside from the whole book) at this point is the warscroll of Lauka Vai (and the generic version), the Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon and the spell lore. It would appear that GW is more so tweaking the LoN stuff then coming up with brand new things, so I expect the VLoZD to only minorly get updated along with the spell lore.

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

And while we are at it, the whole bin guy/sin guy thing is garbage, too. There is no reason to suspect it's really how GW rules writing works, and especially no reason to conclude that "not obviously broken" implies "not sin guy" implies "bin guy" implies "trash book".

Wait, you're telling me bin guy isn't a meme? 

So all this time I was thinking of Oscar from the Muppets jumping out to write the battletome whenever it's time to write rules for vampires...is a lie? 

 

 

Oscar-can2.jpg

Edited by Aren73
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9 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I don't get why you feel the need to pretend that there is anything obvious about how Riders of Ruin is written and presented in that Warcom article.

The presentation sets the expectation that you will be able to skip over screens to charge other stuff. They basically spell it out.

If the rule is supposed to allow you to retreat over models, it's written extremely weirdly.

"If this unit is within 3" of an enemy unit, it can make a normal move... "

You can always do this according to core rules, so it is strange that the rule mentions this at all unless it's supposed to be a special ability. You would not (and GW rules writers usually do not) start abilities that trigger on charge with:

"If this unit is outside of 3" of enemy units in the charge phase, it can make a charge move."I

Other abilities that trigger on retreat are phrased as "When this unit makes a retreat..." , so the language is unusual.

If the intent of this rule is to allow you to just retreat over models, it is written and presented in the most confusing way possible. Really no reason to go "lol, nobody knows basic Aos rules except me. you idiots are all caught up in the hype and can't read rules anymore".

Yeah, we get it by now. This rule needs an erratum/core rules chage to let you retreat and charge. It was also revealed literally yesterday. If you want to feel superior for spotting that right away, have fun. I know that I didn't, and it was partially because I looked deeply into the janky retreat rules before and thought this specific rule let you skip the part where the normal move becomes a retreat.

And while we are at it, the whole bin guy/sin guy thing is garbage, too. There is no reason to suspect it's really how GW rules writing works, and especially no reason to conclude that "not obviously broken" implies "not sin guy" implies "bin guy" implies "trash book".

Ok...

you seem to be taking this rather personally. All I said was that people get really riled up by the hype of these Warhammer community articles and HOPE the rules are more than they actually say they are. And hope yet remains it seems that AoS3 will change this rule and change the basic wording of what constitutes a basic move. 

Should you want to actually dig into win percentages of books,  Vince Ventrulla did a great show about balance,  player skill and how it all ties together with the powerlevel of books. It really digs in deeper into this "good book vs bad book" and how a few  noticeably high skilled players actually make the win/loss rates seem more favourable than they are. 

Or... you know... you can not get that an obvious meme... is a meme. But still try to keep this in the back of your head: a meme doesn't catch on unless a large portion of the population (AoS players in this case obviously) recognizes a (sometimes) harsh kernel of truth in it. 

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Posted (edited)

One thing I will say is assembling the crimson court has done me in, yes they are push fit but I never had as much trouble with any of the nighthaunt push fit stuff as with these guys! However they are absolutely gorgeous models.

Edited by El Syf
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6 minutes ago, El Syf said:

One thing I will say is assembling the crimson court has done me in, yes they are push fit but I never had as much trouble with any of the nighthaunt push fit stuff as with these guys! However they are absolutely gorgeous models.

Some of the recent push-fits have been more difficult than glued ones, especially those incredibly awkward heads where you need to balance it into place whilst you try and slot the back of the body on perfectly. 

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3 hours ago, Gothmaug said:

So what's people's opinions of the new Vengorian vampire-monster? I think its a cool figure, but its anatomically strange, and doesn't quite sit right with me. I may separate the vampire half from the giant bat thing, add a bat head (looking at you fell bats bits) to the lower half, some armored legs to the vampire half and resculpt it as a mounted vampire on Vengorian. 

Its decent enough in my book. Definitely some aspects I'd change. If the top half had been normal size i think it may have appealed to me more. 

Its strange to have these new vamps but no new minions for said bloodlines. I was really surprised to not see a box of Vyrkos Blood Born released. Id bet on a future release. 

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2 minutes ago, Vasshpit said:

Its decent enough in my book. Definitely some aspects I'd change. If the top half had been normal size i think it may have appealed to me more. 

Its strange to have these new vamps but no new minions for said bloodlines. I was really surprised to not see a box of Vyrkos Blood Born released. Id bet on a future release. 

Sadly I think we're all slowly coming around to the realisation that a lot of the Cursed City units only exist in the Cursed City. 

On the topic of the Vengorian - I see the appeal of a normal size top half. However, if it had been then the model would be hardly bigger than a Vargheist. But yeah, the large upper half definitely takes some getting used to. 

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Maybe I’m overly hopeful but I was thinking blood born might arrive with Radukar’s pre-order. Is the complete list of miniatures known now or is that only when book previews happen?

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1 minute ago, Scaras said:

Maybe I’m overly hopeful but I was thinking blood born might arrive with Radukar’s pre-order. Is the complete list of miniatures known now or is that only when book previews happen?

We do not have a definitive list yet, but if bloodborn were coming as a separate kit, they would have announced them in the preview.

They can't repackage the ones from Cursed City because of how those sprues are laid out. They have all Death characters on one sprue which makes it so that they can't easily be sold separately.

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3 minutes ago, Scaras said:

Maybe I’m overly hopeful but I was thinking blood born might arrive with Radukar’s pre-order. Is the complete list of miniatures known now or is that only when book previews happen?

during the warhammer fest presentation we were told that "we've now seen the complete soulblight gravelords model range".  Surprise releases we haven't seen yet are extremely unlikely.  Nothing says they can't be added in a future expansion, and Lumineth have set the precedent that future expansions can be less than a year out from the current release, but for the moment the only way to field Vyrkos Blood-born is via the cursed city crew, which much be purchased as a single group, which means you have to take Radukar the Wolf with them, which means you almost certainly cannot take them in the same army as Radukar the Beast.

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In terms of designers intent on riders of ruin, it is relevant that the warcom article says:

Quote

Riders of Ruin makes Blood Knights ideal harassment units, striking at ‘safe’ targets and disrupting your opponent’s plans. They hit extra hard every time they charge, allowing you to chew your way through the foe’s battle formation with a devastating strike in each successive turn.

Note that they specifically talk about using the rule to charge every turn, which would only be possible if you could use the rule and charge in the same turn.

Granted Warcom isn't official rules, and they get things wrong sometimes, but it felt like a relevant passage to point out regardless.  Probably already been pointed out, but this thread goes so fast, if someone else already did I apologize.

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9 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

*rather mediocre melee char that dies most the time ^^
I move the model and the more. Yet the rules made the mortarchs WAY too squishy for some of most powerful entities of Undeath.

Sth. Tells me that his statline will remain the same ... 

I’m banking on it.  In OBR both Nagash and Arkham’s changes were in game mechanics.  Arkham had a point hike as well.

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Posted (edited)

Did you all see the Pitched Battle Points leaks?

Confirmed NH allies and FEC, also battalions still exist so presumably they won't be scrapping those in Third ed after all.

+++ MOD EDIT: Please no leaked photos +++

Edited by RuneBrush
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Posted (edited)

Yes im seeing the new tome in twitch. The mortarch seems buffed but almost all the other units nerfed  seems,and blood knigth 195 are waaay overcosted,worse than olds than cost 180.

 

Also radukar the wolf do around 10,6 damage and cost 320  and only 11 wounds with save 4, the t rex of seraphon do 14'4damage and have more wounds for 210....

 

So far every wsrscroll have been nerfed from leguion of nagash. Only grave guard seems great 

Edited by Doko
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24 minutes ago, Loft said:

Did you all see the Pitched Battle Points leaks?

Confirmed NH allies and FEC, also battalions still exist so presumably they won't be scrapping those in Third ed after all.

185761972_211832783854264_7788720704275402945_n.jpg?_nc_cat=103&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=ae9488&_nc_ohc=zBAzEoPNF6kAX9E4Cy9&_nc_ht=scontent.fsyd10-1.fna&oh=f24edf0eedaad6cc6ca39912de33fabc&oe=60C08845

They've clearly said battalions will stay but only be used in non matched play formats. They're included in the book with points because this is still technically a 2.0 book and presumably should have come out a lot sooner before the schedule shift.

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13 minutes ago, Doko said:

Yes im seeing the new tome in twitch. The mortarch seems buffed but almost all the other units nerfed  seems,and blood knigth 195 are waaay overcosted,worse than olds than cost 180.

 

Also radukar the wolf do around 11 damage and cost 320  and only 11 wounds with save 4, the t rex of seraphon do more damage and have more wounds for 210....

Where?

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