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Just now, Sception said:

Do they?  I thought they were same attack range, same number of attacks, same to hit roll for both, which means both will be rolling the same number of dice to wound and thus both will roll the same number of natural sixes to wound to proc mortals?

Unless you mean shield guard will take less damage before swinging and thus make more attacks, which, sure, that makes sense.

The way you talk about them, though, it kind of sounds like you're picturing them with both shields and great weapons, even though it's one or the other.  Which do you go with?  Swords can take a bit more of a hit, and thus hope to maybe get in an extra mortal or two, and they're more consistant with the better to wound roll, but half as much potential damage per attack is really going to cut down their offensive potential vs. those hoards you were talking about.

Then again, 14 points a wound and only a 5+ save, with as little recursion as this army seems to have, will great weapon grave guard even last long enough to swing at anything?

 

Dang but I wish they had the skeletons' get back up rule.  Or that skeletons had grave guards chance of proccing mortals.  Oh, well.

My bad, it's late here and I'm not putting myself across clearly. 

No I'm fully aware they're different options. And you're right, I thought that the great wight blades hit on 4+, instead they wound on 4+...that's not intuitive. 

I don't know if Zombies are more durable per point against shield Grave Guard, I can math that out tomorrow. But even shield Grave Guard I think out-damage Zombies point for point and great weapon Grave Guard certainly do. 

As for which I go with - no idea yet. I like the idea of shields but it would depend on what else is there in the list. I think both options are very good and have their place. 

What makes Grave Guard so crazy is the 2 Attacks. 
Zombies are 5.75 ppm, Grave Guard are 14. However Grave Guard have 2 attacks, so it's like each of those attacks is 7 points. 
Looking at points per attack, zombies still at 5.75, Grave Guard at 7. Sword and board you are still getting a +2 to hit, +2 to wound and a -1 rend for only 1.25 points more. 

Going by that, both variants of Grave Guard out-damage zombies point for point. 

However, with zombies you have more wounds per point and a heal ability. Grave Guard get a better save instead. It's not immediately obvious which one is better, but I'm tempted to say a unit of zombies is tougher to wipe out than the same points of Grave Guard. 

I guess there's the answer, written pretty incoherently due to my sleepiness. Grave Guard out-damage Zombies, Zombies out-live Grave Guard (both of those I think are true no matter the Grave Guard loadout). 

For me, the Grave Guard damage output is the important factor.

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Posted (edited)

How would you guys suggest a nice way to start with 1000-1250 points of Kastelei?

i was thinking of 

Vengorian Lord

20x Grave Guard

2x 5 BKs 

Total: 950

or

Prince V

2x 5 Bks

10 Wolves

Total:980

do you think it will be Good? There is no command ability in this list that really shine ... I’m planning to go to some tournaments later and really don’t wanna waste my money because I’m a student. So would really need some help what to preorder first. ^^

Edited by Erdemo86
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2 minutes ago, NicholasFlamelGames said:

That would require getting your 4 inch move units into the protected units you really want to deal MWs too....

I did say it wasn't a great answer.  😛

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1 minute ago, Aren73 said:

For me, the Grave Guard damage output is the important factor.

This is fair, but with the low speed of grave guard it's going to be difficult to get that damage where you want it, while their lower durability point for point is easier for the enemy to exploit.

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2 minutes ago, Sception said:

This is fair, but with the low speed of grave guard it's going to be difficult to get that damage where you want it, while their lower durability point for point is easier for the enemy to exploit.

Valid - but both units are same speed until zombies get within 6. 

For both you have to think of delivery in your list and getting them there. Both units are too slow to reliably hunt enemy units unless you have a solid plan for how they do so. 

I don't think there is necessarily an overall better option, just situationally better ones. Once the Grave Guard get there they will chew through most things, whereas zombies won't. However, getting them there is the issue. Against some enemies or scenarios either aspect will be more critical. 

Personally zombies just don't appeal to me so I will be taking grave guard, which by what we've just established seem to be at least on par. If you prefer Zombies then take those - they're not a bad choice either. 

If your list lacks damage take the GG, if however you want units that are more durable take the zoms. I don't think both units perform the exact same function, there's enough difference to not make one optimal to the other. 

 

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Posted (edited)

What would you suggest for starting 1000 points kastelei? I think 2x5 Blood Knights are a must, but what else?

some summonable unit seems good so I don’t waste my allegiance and a hero that complements.

Edited by Erdemo86
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Posted (edited)

Question about the Vengorian lord. His CA says that a SBG unit can heal D6 wound if it killed an ennemy unit...does it mean we can revive a model or two ? Possibly a Blood Knight ? Or am I reading too much into it ?

If not then it means it's only useful on Behemoths...

Edited by Harioch
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Not sure what Doko is talking about Skeletons are great defensive units. 
 

I think a lot of people are just going to need to get used to lots of units serving different roles then they used to.

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2 minutes ago, Envyus said:

Not sure what Doko is talking about Skeletons are great defensive units. 
 

I think a lot of people are just going to need to get used to lots of units serving different roles then they used to.

I think they are perfect objective holders. I'm planning on taking 2x20 to camp objectives and be exactly within 12 of gravesites so they don't need a babysitter for deathless minions. Was trying to figure out how to increase their output but its just polishing a ******, like giving clanrats +1 attacks from a clawlord.

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1 hour ago, Harioch said:

Question about the Vengorian lord. His CA says that a SBG unit can heal D6 wound if it killed an ennemy unit...does it mean we can revive a model or two ? Possibly a Blood Knight ? Or am I reading too much into it ?

If not then it means it's only useful on Behemoths...

It does not say return models, just heal. So best used in parallel with lots of high wound things.

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A little disapppointed by the Skeleton warscroll, but I'll probably still be taking a block of them. They are just so much more visually appealing to me than the zombies. Battleline will probably be 20-30 skeletons to camp backfield and then Dire Wolves to push forward and screen. I'd like to throw in Black Knights for Legion of Blood Battle line, but...eurgh. No. Maybe if they drop in cost by 20+ points while Dire Wolves stay the same.

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Posted (edited)

Vyrkos list (without artifacts)

Spoiler

     Vyrkos Bloodline
VLoZD (435)
     -General: Hunter's Snare
     -Amethstine Pinions
Radukar (315)
     -Amaranthine Orb
Belladonna (200)
     -Soulpike
Necromancer (125)
     -Overwhelming Dread
20 Skeletons (170)
20 Skeletons (170)
20 Graveguard (280)
     -Sword N' Board
10 Wolves (135)
10 Wolves (135)

Total: (1965)

Is there enough punch here? might go min units with skeletons

Edited by Verminlord
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3 hours ago, Erdemo86 said:

Manny don’t gets Kastelei Buffs either. And the Melee Profil on Ct is not sheet if you get +1 dmg. 

Right, but people are saying Coven Throne. Which would benefit little (imo) from Kastelei anyway. So might as well buff ALL your units using Manny. He can also cast two spells and be a fairly disrptuive character, which imo would be more useful than Coven

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5 hours ago, umpac said:

The zombie horde seems to have some legs. 6" pile in makes them deceptively fast, especially with the +move spell. 40 zombies with buffs can easily do 20+ wounds per pile in, can potentially pile in twice and gets bolstered by kills. You fight the right target and you can easily be at 60+ zombies after a single combat, more against ideal targets and double pile in. Unless they remove inspiring presence in 3.0 they have a lot of staying power as well. Obviously needs play testing but my early impression is that they are basically "LoN marauders".

I actually think the concept is cool as hell. Just a massive "They are billions" style horde that swallows up and absorbs opposing armies, just a constantly growing avalanche of rotting flesh. The concept of zombies being slow up until they come close then suddenly lunges at you with surprising speed just oozes flavor. Buying and painting 120 zombies + X zombies for ressing is less cool....

Mind sharing how you got these numbers?
I may include a small zombie force to my Kastelai, but unsure how to manage the dead.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Erdemo86 said:

What would you suggest for starting 1000 points kastelei? I think 2x5 Blood Knights are a must, but what else?

some summonable unit seems good so I don’t waste my allegiance and a hero that complements.

I'm personally thinking x5 (3) BK, Vengorian Lord, and 20 Zombies :) 
Still contemplating a 1k list as well.

Or

Manny

x5 BK (3) 

Manny’s CA can benefit all three BK in any given turn for some solid punch 

Edited by BrotherTalarian
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17 hours ago, Sception said:

Deploy the zombies in a horseshoe and you can put a corpse cart & even a hero or two in the middle, keep 12" on everything.  You won't be buffing multiple units that way, but you can definitely keep one max unit in the aura.

That said, with max unit 40, low speed, next to nill save, and dramatically reduced healing, there's a lot of opponents who are going to have a pretty easy time sweeping those zombies off the table before they have a chance to do anything.

I’m trying to tap down on the nagging feeling that all our regular battline is going to die super fast with damage inflation.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, BrotherTalarian said:

Mind sharing how you got these numbers?
I may include a small zombie force to my Kastelai, but unsure how to manage the dead.

Yeah the move spell is caster only so forget about that one. Otherwise its +1A from battalion, +1A from Mannfred, +1A from Radukar and +1A from Vamp lord. Necro gets them fighting twice. With 6" pile in. 25mm bases and a wide formation getting 30 zombies into combat is going to be common. Thats 150 attacks with MW procs dealing an avarage of 30 dmg to 4+ save, potentially ressing another 25 zombies if you fight 1 wound targets. Even if you just get 20 into combat thats still 20 damage, 18 new zombies. Mannfreds sword buff is kind of a hassle to get off but the rest is very easy and even with just +2A they slap.

6" pile in is also the best ability in the game, by like a mile. It can function to give you retreat and charge, always strike first that beats all other ASF, a fixed charge range of 6+6+4 if you spend a CP on the run roll and the ability to set up short counter charges. 

They can also potentially get a 5+ unrendable save, reduce enemies to hit/wound by -1 and ress dead guys via spells and abilities. Their tankiness relies heavily on spells though, so hard hitting alpha strikers can put them down before they get rolling (then again we can just keep them in reserves in that case).

All of this relies heavily on AoS 3.0 not capping +A to 1 like they are rumored to do with hit/wound/save.

Edited by umpac
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3 hours ago, Verminlord said:

Radukar (315)
     -Amaranthine Orb
Belladonna (200)
     -Soulpike

Remember that Radukar is not a wizzard, but Belladamma can cast 2!

6 hours ago, Verminlord said:

Am I missing something with coven throne? I get that +1 to hit wound and save is an amazing buff, but its limited to wholly within 12, and costs a CP. There are no other redeeming qualities to the unit. It's a single caster and it's unique spell only effects itself. So 310 points for single caster that can buff one, maybe two units per turn?

One of the things that I like about the Coven Throne is 8-14" move! That should be enough to follow Blood Knights or other big heroes.At the same time, he can take a trait and artefact too!

And if 3.0 rumors are right, there should be a lot of interactions with CPs.

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5 hours ago, Aren73 said:

Valid - but both units are same speed until zombies get within 6. 

For both you have to think of delivery in your list and getting them there. Both units are too slow to reliably hunt enemy units unless you have a solid plan for how they do so. 

I don't think there is necessarily an overall better option, just situationally better ones. Once the Grave Guard get there they will chew through most things, whereas zombies won't. However, getting them there is the issue. Against some enemies or scenarios either aspect will be more critical. 

Personally zombies just don't appeal to me so I will be taking grave guard, which by what we've just established seem to be at least on par. If you prefer Zombies then take those - they're not a bad choice either. 

If your list lacks damage take the GG, if however you want units that are more durable take the zoms. I don't think both units perform the exact same function, there's enough difference to not make one optimal to the other. 

 

The speed of zombies really comes from their lack of need to charge... imagine you have 20 grave guard 14 inches from the enemy, they move 4 inches and then need a 10 inch charge. Put zombies in the same situation and you can run them (use command to guarantee 6 if needed) but for this example let's say you run 6, so they move 10 inches - this puts them 4 inches from the enemy, during combat they can pile in because they are within 6 inches for their rule.

They could be crazy fast with lucky rolls like that, makes it hard for the enemy to stay safe, and small support heroes are at a big risk and must stay further away from their chaff etc.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Nactigal said:

So what are y'all going to order this Sunday? I'm thinking a box of zombies, 1 or 2 blood knights and the vengorian lord.

Im torn... definitely the tome (obviously)... but I need so much stuff for the armies I want to run and I'll likely spread out my order over the coming months so I don't overwhelm myself with gluing/painting. Also gonna cost a lot lol.

Off the top of my head I 100% want:

Multiple zombie boxes (2 minimum)

Blood knights (possible multiple but I already have a cool converted unit from chaos knights)

Skeletons (to run as grave guard)

2x dire wolf boxes

Grandma wolf

Radukar

Lauka Vai

Mounted wight

That's just minimum/off the top of my head, I'm sure there will be more. That's on top of my current 2 or 3k of legions of nagash lol.

I can't afford all that in one lot haha.

 

 

Edited by Ghoooouls
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9 minutes ago, Ghoooouls said:

this puts them 4 inches from the enemy, during combat they can pile in because they are within 6 inches for their rule.

That is my hot take on them...being in combat while the opponent is not, kinda giving them first strike.

that they don’t need to charge and their potential threat range makes them hard to ignore. And their 6“ pile in comes in very handy if somebody tries to be funny and engages on one side.

same for wolves in a belladonna list 

still very new and needs to prove itself on the field 

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