Soulblight Gravelords News, Rumours and Speculation

[Erdemo86]

Skeletons: 8.5 points per Wound

Wolves: 6.75 points per Wound

Zombies: 5.75 points per Wound

Counting that Wolves have 5+ save and 2 attacks with 3+ 3+ on the charge and a move of 10, for me wolves are the winner.  (Without any support)

Edited May 20, 2021 by Erdemo86

[Raptor_Jesues]

7 minutes ago, Erdemo86 said:

Skeletons: 8.5 points per Wound

Wolves: 6.75 points per Wound

Zombies: 5.75 points per Wound

Counting that Wolves have 5+ save and 2 attacks with 3+ 3+ on the charge and a move of 10, for me wolves are the winner.  (Without any support)

you should factor in the save but yes, the results are similar. I was doing some "math" and it turns out that agaisnt rend - wolves are basically 4,5 points per wound (almost as good as bloodknights!) and 5,6 against rend -1. They are VERY convenient both as resistance and damage output

Edited May 20, 2021 by Raptor_Jesues

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

15 minutes ago, Raptor_Jesues said:

a thing that i like to do is to abuse the wolves bigger bases. I put them in a defensive semi circle right on top of the obj border (6" from it basically) so that as long as 1 is still living the objective is still mine. I need to make some calculations about actual points per hardyness though

	Effective Wounds	Points per wound	Rend -1	ppw	Rend -2	ppw
skeletons	15	5,67	13,33	6,38	10	8,50
zombies	20	5,75	20	5,75	20	5,75
doggos	30	4,50	26,66	5,06	20	6,75
grave guard	20	7,00	15	9,33	13,33	10,50

 

So this is the calculation for Skeletons, Zombies, Dire Wolves and Grave Guard with Shields. Grave Guard with Great Weapons are the same as skeletons.

How to read this:

Effective wounds is number of models*wounds*save multiplier, assuming no rend.

Points per wound is points/effective wounds.

Rend -1 is effective wounds assuming rend -1, rend -2 is the same assuming that. The associated points per wound are in the column next to those.

Take aways:

• Zombies are great points per wound, and stay so since they are immune to rend because of save '-'. This has a real effect. I have noticed that in my calculations frequently elite units with high rend do really bad damage to zombies.
• Skeletons are decent points per wound against no rend, better than zombies and with a good amount of bodies. And this is not even taking their 4+ heal in the combat phase into consideration.
• Dire Wolves have the best points per wound, but worse bodies than either zombies and skeletons.
• Grave Guard are really just too expensive to consider for only objective camping. Say what you will about the Gravelords book, but our trash unit selection is great!

For me, this strengthens my belief that if you just want to cover your battleline, you could do worse than take one unit of each of our unconditional battleline units.

[Raptor_Jesues]

6 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

	Effective Wounds	Points per wound	Rend -1	ppw	Rend -2	ppw
skeletons	15	5,67	13,33	6,38	10	8,50
zombies	20	5,75	20	5,75	20	5,75
doggos	30	4,50	26,66	5,06	20	6,75
grave guard	20	7,00	15	9,33	13,33	10,50

 

So this is the calculation for Skeletons, Zombies, Dire Wolves and Grave Guard with Shields. Grave Guard with Great Weapons are the same as skeletons.

How to read this:

Effective wounds is number of models*wounds*save multiplier, assuming no rend.

Points per wound is points/effective wounds.

Rend -1 is effective wounds assuming rend -1, rend -2 is the same assuming that. The associated points per wound are in the column next to those.

Take aways:

• Zombies are great points per wound, and stay so since they are immune to rend because of save '-'. This has a real effect. I have noticed that in my calculations frequently elite units with high rend do really bad damage to zombies.
• Skeletons are decent points per wound against no rend, better than zombies and with a good amount of bodies. And this is not even taking their 4+ heal in the combat phase into consideration.
• Dire Wolves have the best points per wound, but worse bodies than either zombies and skeletons.
• Grave Guard are really just too expensive to consider for only objective camping. Say what you will about the Gravelords book, but our trash unit selection is great!

For me, this strengthens my belief that if you just want to cover your battleline, you could do worse than take one unit of each of our unconditional battleline units.

you are not wrong but i still cant help but despise skeletons, it is really hard for me to justify a unit that is there only to get killed

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

2 minutes ago, Raptor_Jesues said:

you are not wrong but i still cant help but despise skeletons, it is really hard for me to justify a unit that is there only to get killed

100% fair. I think skeletons are better than most people give them credit for, but they are by no means an auto include. Especially against shooting lists, where their benefits don't come into play.

[Raptor_Jesues]

Funny trick: a 6" radius circle has roughly a 94cm circumference. 10 wolves with a 4,5cm base can cover almost exactly half of the circle circumference preventing enemies from getting models on the objective while the wolves will be in.
Profit 

ps. this is going to be tricky unless you use obj markers that include the radius, WICH YOU SHOULD

Edited May 20, 2021 by Raptor_Jesues

[Honk]

The trouble is always: all have their Pros/cons... and the Game is not played in a vacuum.

doggos are fast, 2hp Models with big bases, good as light skirmishers 

skellis gave a bit armor, do not really dish out damage, but regenerate models in 4+, 

zombies are naked, don’t hit for their undead life, but do mortals, pile in 6“ and regenerate on 2+ IF they do kill stuff.

depending on the rest of your list, the opponent and the scenario, the one truth is just not there...

and I love it, the versatility of LoN/Death was always one of my biggest likes

[Beliman]

I willwait for 3.0.

If the rumors are right and there are a lot of new mechanics to give +1 saves (mystic shield, CA reaction, etc...), skeletons are going to be 3+ or even 2+save  (if stacking saves still exists)! That's awesome for a unit that can return models at 50% and really hard to kill without high rend (if someone want to waste his/her high quality attacks killing humble skeledudes...).

[Aren73]

The skeleton regen is really hard to take into account, it gives them a lot of swing and variability. 

It does nothing to stop them getting wiped in one go, but is stupidly strong if the enemy doesn't wipe them and then you get to go. Regarding @Neil Arthur Hotep's excellent breakdown it's like the the effective wounds of the unit getting doubled as long as they don't get wiped and go second. 

How often the "don't get wiped, go second" scenario happens is one of how good your and your opponent's play is. 

I play Necrons as my second army and boy am I feeling the parallels. Suddenly Skeletons are like a unit of Necron Warriors (who also happen to hate spells - no regen too). Except for Necrons the reanimation happens after every enemy unit's attack against that unit. 

 

I find it odd that we have no other ways of interacting with this rule (or Endless Legions for that matter). I would have thought a Wight King could have a CA that "you pick a unit of skellies, they roll 4+ for all their dead models to reanimate" or something like that. Would have fit nicely and basically makes them a Necron Overlord with a resurrection orb. 

Looking at the Deathrattle subfaction the term half-baked springs to mind...

[JackStreicher]

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

100% fair. I think skeletons are better than most people give them credit for, but they are by no means an auto include. Especially against shooting lists, where their benefits don't come into play.

I came to the same conclusion

[JackStreicher]

7 minutes ago, Aren73 said:

I find it odd that we have no other ways of interacting with this rule (or Endless Legions for that matter). I would have thought a Wight King could have a CA that "you pick a unit of skellies, they roll 4+ for all their dead models to reanimate" or something like that. Would have fit nicely and basically makes them a Necron Overlord with a resurrection orb. 

That would make them worth taking over  Vampires.

Or simply improve the Reanimation Roll  of skellies by 1 as aura.

the mounted one could simply add +1 damage to black knights in the same manner as a Warchanter works for orruks.

Edited May 20, 2021 by JackStreicher

[warhammernerd]

And the fact that with Vanhels, skeletons are getting two stabs at regenning. Its pretty stubborn. 

 

[warhammernerd]

'When you pick this unit to fight, roll a dice for each model in this unit that was slain in that phase. On a 4+, you can return that model to this unit.'

Just wanna double check this.. 

In my previous hero phase I cast Vanhels off on a unit of 30 Skeles. It comes to my opponents turn and and I have that same unit of 30 skeletons in combat with X. Its my opponents priority and they elect to fight my before my skeletons killing 10. It cycles back round to my unit of skeletons, and before I attack I see how many return, I roll average and 5 return. My opponent has no more units to fight, so I choose the Skeletons to fight again. 

Do I:

a) roll 10 dice again, as that is how many models died in previously in this same phase (understood you wouldn't be able to raise above the units starting number). 

or

b) now only 5 dice to return models as 5 have already healed? 

If its option (a) Skeletons are not half bad. 

[Mcprowlington]

Honestly one of the things that does it for me when it comes to skeleton models is that they're a unit that benefits from attacking after the enemy. Choice paralysis is a huge problem for me, I take forever when it comes to activation. I'm tempted to take 1 maxed block of skeletons among my other battleline so I can just relax and have 1 less thing to think about during that phase. 

Edited May 20, 2021 by Mcprowlington

[Sception]

6 minutes ago, warhammernerd said:

a) roll 10 dice again, as that is how many models died in previously in this same phase (understood you wouldn't be able to raise above the units starting number). 

or

b) now only 5 dice to return models as 5 have already healed? 

Rules As Written at the moment seems to be A, since that's also how battleshock works.  Ie, if 10 skeletons were slain, and 5 get back up, then 10 still count as slain for battleshock purposes.

However, like many things in the book, I would not be at all surprised if this was reversed in errata/faq.  Because intuitively a skeleton can't come back from the dead if it's already back from the dead.

[Aren73]

Yup, @Sception is correct, reanimated models still count as slain models. 

It's a double edged sword. You get to roll twice for them, but they still count towards battleshock even if they got up. 

Funky.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

21 minutes ago, Sception said:

Rules As Written at the moment seems to be A, since that's also how battleshock works.  Ie, if 10 skeletons were slain, and 5 get back up, then 10 still count as slain for battleshock purposes.

However, like many things in the book, I would not be at all surprised if this was reversed in errata/faq.  Because intuitively a skeleton can't come back from the dead if it's already back from the dead.

You can never go over starting site with skeleton regeneration, so it's fine. However, if they change this, they better make it so that slain but returned skeletons also don't count for battleshock. Otherwise we are getting the worst of both worlds.

EDIT: One of my earliest Warhammer memories is getting a bunch of Tomb Kings skeletons charged by some empire guys in a choke point and them continually killing a bunch of skeletons, but never enough to beat their regeneration. Tied up that unit for the whole game. If I can recreate that scenario with the new Skeleton Warriors some time, I'll be satisfied.

Edited May 20, 2021 by Neil Arthur Hotep

[RuneBrush]

38 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

You can never go over starting site with skeleton regeneration, so it's fine. However, if they change this, they better make it so that slain but returned skeletons also don't count for battleshock. Otherwise we are getting the worst of both worlds.

As it stands would those resurrected skeletons not still provide the + bonus for every 10 models (could be wrong, not got rules in front of me).  I'm fairly sure we're going to end up with the battleshock phase rehashed in the new version in some format though in 3rd ed.  Possibly something similar to 40k

[Televiper11]

5 hours ago, Raptor_Jesues said:

i would suggest you both dire wolves and vargheists.
The wolves are a good screen, summonable and you can get them back with the gravesites, also they hit rather hard, expecially when supported by volga.
Vargheists are a very nice hammer unit with a similar damage per point to bloodknights while being way less tanky and a bit cheaper, in my opinion the two units complement each other very well. Also they are vampires and will benefit from the traits of kastelai.
Both units are also fast wich is what you want in a kastelai army, i would suggest to get both

I was going to suggest the same thing! It will make for a sweet list!

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

15 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

As it stands would those resurrected skeletons not still provide the + bonus for every 10 models (could be wrong, not got rules in front of me).

Are you talking about the extra attacks that old skeleton warriors got? If so, that rule is no longer on the warscroll.

Generally skeleton regeneration is fairly nice. It happens when you activate them to fight, but before they fight, so returned skeletons can get extra attacks in. And since Vanhel's Danse Macabre was changed to be "until your next hero phase", you can do it on your opponent's turn, too.

How slain models are currently calculated is a bit of a double edged sword for us. On one hand, when regenerating twice, it means we get to count slain models double. If your opponent slays 10 skeletons, and you regenerate twice, you can roll 10 dice both times even if you regenerate some of your skeletons the first time around. However, if your opponent kills 10 skeletons and 5 regenerate, that's currently still 10 slain for the purpose of battleshock as well.

I think 30 skeletons plus a necromancer are looking pretty good. The Necromancer can cast Vanhel's or Deathmages lore spells if you don't need Vanhel's, and provides Deathless Minions and Deathly Invocation for the skeletons. He is also able to use Inspiring presence if you lose, like, 30 skeletons one round. I think it's probably the best infantry anvil in Gravelords, as weird as that sounds.

[Erdemo86]

Does anyone here from Germany got their preorders?

[Liquidsteel]

1 hour ago, warhammernerd said:

'When you pick this unit to fight, roll a dice for each model in this unit that was slain in that phase. On a 4+, you can return that model to this unit.'

Just wanna double check this.. 

In my previous hero phase I cast Vanhels off on a unit of 30 Skeles. It comes to my opponents turn and and I have that same unit of 30 skeletons in combat with X. Its my opponents priority and they elect to fight my before my skeletons killing 10. It cycles back round to my unit of skeletons, and before I attack I see how many return, I roll average and 5 return. My opponent has no more units to fight, so I choose the Skeletons to fight again. 

Do I:

a) roll 10 dice again, as that is how many models died in previously in this same phase (understood you wouldn't be able to raise above the units starting number). 

or

b) now only 5 dice to return models as 5 have already healed? 

If its option (a) Skeletons are not half bad. 

I was re-reading the scroll a few days ago, and I think it's option B.

See below.

Skeleton Legion: Though slow in their approach, these undead warriors rise to rejoin the fight time and time again in spite of their losses. When you pick this unit to fight, roll a dice for each model in this unit that was slain in that phase. On a 4+, you can return that model to this unit.

Each dice roll is for a specific model, so if Bill, Bob and Ben die, and Bill gets back up the first time, he cannot get back up again. Even if you can technically roll his dice, a successful roll would do nothing.

[Liquidsteel]

6 minutes ago, Erdemo86 said:

Does anyone here from Germany got their preorders?

Does Germany get their pre-orders early?

[Aturox]

26 minutes ago, Liquidsteel said:

Does Germany get their pre-orders early?

Tbh i didnt order directly from gw anymore since most of the guys i know had their orders pending for months without any progress. I only order on thirdparty websites and since the delivery volume is higher its more likely to pass the customs

Had my crimson court delivered to me on release saturday last time

Edited May 20, 2021 by Aturox

[mrteige]

I am a FEC player maybe looking towards building a SG with a Vargheists focus (i have 18 flayers)

how would you guys go about making a semi/full on competitive Vargheists heavy army?