Neil Arthur Hotep Posted May 20, 2021 Author Share Posted May 20, 2021 3 minutes ago, Ferrus65 said: Dear undead friends, need advice. I'd like a Kastelai Dinasty themed army. What I have right now is: Prince Vhordrai (mandatory) 455 pts Vengorian Lord (I like the model, but we can talk about it) 280 pts Coven Throne (we also can talk about this, I don't even like the model.. or better, I'd like to build something more Kastelai themed, but no ideas at all) 310 pts 3 x 5 blood knights (mandatory) 585 pts. Total 1.630 pts. I'd like to arrive to a 2000 pts list, question is: anything to modify? And what else? More blood knights? Dire wolves? Fell Bats? Any suggestion would be really appreciated I'd add at least one unit with bodies for capturing. 30 Skeletons or 2x20 zombies if you don't plan on supporting them with heroes. Get some use out of that Endless Legions! You can take Dire Wolves, but I personally feel highly mobile, highly armoured lists like this need them less. They are never a bad choice, though. If you cover 1 Battleline slot this way, maybe consider combining two units of Blood Knights into 1 unit of 10. I think that makes the Coven Throne more worth it, because you can buff more Knights at once. If you are worried about getting them into combat, remember you can always charge more than one enemy unit at once with them. A bit fiddly, but they already hit super hard with the coven throne buff. I believe Vhordrai and the Throne have a role in your list, but you need to think about what the Vengorian Lord is supposed to do. He's a more defensive unit. His damage output is not actually super high. But I think giving him the Fragment of the Keep and just sending him in with a unit of Blood Knights to make them more survivable is a fair use for him. Personally, I like Dire Bats. I think I will put them in my lists whenver I have 75 points left over. They can deploy in the grave and you just leave them in there as long as possible (until turn 3). That way, if your opponent ever leaves an objective within range of those grave sites open, you can just pop them out and grab it. The range those bats can cover is huge, too: You need to deploy them within 12" of the grave, they have a 14" flying move and they need to get within 6" to capture. So you might be looking at a 30" or so area of control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted May 20, 2021 Author Share Posted May 20, 2021 13 minutes ago, Raptor_Jesues said: Vargheists are a very nice hammer unit actually delivering more damage than bloodknights on a charge while being way less tanky and a bit cheaper, in my opinion the two units complement each other very well. Do you mean off the charge? Blood Knights definitely hit way harder on the charge: Save Blood Knights (charge) Blood Knights (normal) Vargheits 2+ 5.37 3 3.7 3+ 8.36 4.81 5.56 4+ 11.36 6.62 7.41 5+ 14.35 8.43 9.26 6+ 17.35 10.24 11.11 - 17.97 10.86 11.11 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrus65 Posted May 20, 2021 Share Posted May 20, 2021 Thank you guys, some interesting inputs to consider. I 'd avoid skeletons and zombies, too slow and not exactly fitting my theme. But I could consider some dire wolves, and even Belladamma Volga, but .. I really dislike this Vykros/Old Russian Theme. I was considering a large base, with the new female vampire lord (the bats/red hairs one) and a couple of wolves. It could be a nice model. And vargheists and dire bats are also interesting. How many of them? unit of 3 or 6 to be efficient? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boar Posted May 20, 2021 Share Posted May 20, 2021 8 hours ago, Doko said: bad example because they were a bad tome as theorycrafter said,untill general handbook did as a 30% reduction in every unit) Meanwhile in real world ships and flying endrinmaster dropped 12-13%, with Ironclad dropping 6%, and Thunderers being staple of many strategies were untouched. So if someone was flying say 2 gunhaulers and Ironclad they gained... 70 pts., that's simply not enough to push bad tome to the top. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor_Jesues Posted May 20, 2021 Share Posted May 20, 2021 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said: Do you mean off the charge? Blood Knights definitely hit way harder on the charge: Save Blood Knights (charge) Blood Knights (normal) Vargheits 2+ 5.37 3 3.7 3+ 8.36 4.81 5.56 4+ 11.36 6.62 7.41 5+ 14.35 8.43 9.26 6+ 17.35 10.24 11.11 - 17.97 10.86 11.11 i meant with the same points but i think i was wrong with that too, ill rectify Edited May 20, 2021 by Raptor_Jesues 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aren73 Posted May 20, 2021 Share Posted May 20, 2021 How do we feel about Blood Knights for their points in general? My flatmate, a gitz player, was amazed they are as cheap as they are for how tough and killy they are. Is that just him being a gitz player? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted May 20, 2021 Author Share Posted May 20, 2021 9 minutes ago, Ferrus65 said: And vargheists and dire bats are also interesting. How many of them? unit of 3 or 6 to be efficient? I think you can take 3 or 6 of Vargheists. Both sizes are good, it's just a decision you have to make. For Dire Bats, I would go minimum size. Their strengths are that they are cheap, mobile, flying and summonable. Taking a large unit does not really play into those strengths. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Syf Posted May 20, 2021 Share Posted May 20, 2021 5 minutes ago, Aren73 said: How do we feel about Blood Knights for their points in general? My flatmate, a gitz player, was amazed they are as cheap as they are for how tough and killy they are. Is that just him being a gitz player? I feel 195 is fair, before points were revealed I had a horrible feeling they were going to be 240-260 which would have been unfeasible to do an all cavalry battleiline. We've argued about the lack of -2 rend on their attacks and if they had that then maybe a higher points cost would be justified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted May 20, 2021 Author Share Posted May 20, 2021 4 minutes ago, Aren73 said: How do we feel about Blood Knights for their points in general? I think they are properly good! Their basic warscroll alone is strong, with their good damage, save and Riders of Ruin (especially if that actually lets you retreat and charge). But they also interact well with our book and there are plenty of good buffs in there for them. If you compare them with Kavalos Deathriders from OBR which are about the same points at 180, they actually look really good. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boar Posted May 20, 2021 Share Posted May 20, 2021 10 minutes ago, Aren73 said: My flatmate, a gitz player, was amazed they are as cheap as they are for how tough and killy they are. Is that just him being a gitz player? Nah, it's more then just gitz player thing. Maybe not exactly on offense/damage where Gitz player has Boingrots, but those poor Boingrotz bounce kinda randomly which is big problem, and their toughness is kinda average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidsteel Posted May 20, 2021 Share Posted May 20, 2021 16 minutes ago, Raptor_Jesues said: i meant with the same points but i think i was wrong with that too, ill rectify Here is the damage of 15 Blood Knights (2 champions to simulate a 10 and 5) as well as 12 Vargheists (2 Champions to simulate 2 x 6). Blood Knights are 585 points. Vargheists are 620 points. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aren73 Posted May 20, 2021 Share Posted May 20, 2021 Fair fair, I thought the lack of -2 rend would drag them down but for their points they don't seem to me to be bad currently. Maybe I'm too used to seeing the 3/3/-1/2 profile everywhere and so don't really see it as anything special anymore. Also, initially I didn't think much of their save changes but going up to a native 3+ is actually such a strong buff, plus the reroll 1s on death saves (every little helps), they seem significantly tougher to kill than their previous iteration. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidsteel Posted May 20, 2021 Share Posted May 20, 2021 Yep, other considerations than just damage: Blood Knights have a 3+ save vs 5+, reroll 1s on Deathless, as well as have the Riders of Ruin trait for potential future retreat and charge with D3 Mortals. 15 blood knights are 45 wounds, 12 Vargheists are 48 wounds. Blood Knights can deep strike on board edges in Kastelai, Vargheists can deep strike anywhere in any list. Vargheists Fly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidsteel Posted May 20, 2021 Share Posted May 20, 2021 Giving Blood Knights -2 rend on the charge would not have been game breaking, they are still 195 points, after all. Might have made them too good internally, who knows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aren73 Posted May 20, 2021 Share Posted May 20, 2021 6 minutes ago, Liquidsteel said: Yep, other considerations than just damage: Blood Knights have a 3+ save vs 5+, reroll 1s on Deathless, as well as have the Riders of Ruin trait for potential future retreat and charge with D3 Mortals. 15 blood knights are 45 wounds, 12 Vargheists are 48 wounds. Blood Knights can deep strike on board edges in Kastelai, Vargheists can deep strike anywhere in any list. Vargheists Fly. Also smaller unit footprint on Vargheists than Blood Knights. More Vargheists will get in range to attack/fit in tight spaces. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted May 20, 2021 Author Share Posted May 20, 2021 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Liquidsteel said: Giving Blood Knights -2 rend on the charge would not have been game breaking, they are still 195 points, after all. Might have made them too good internally, who knows? -2 rend would have been nice with their big bases. But at the same time, I feel like buffed up Blood Knights should be able to handle anything up to a 3+ save as they are. And since they have a 3+ of their own, they should be OK getting caught in combat for a round before retreating with Riders of Ruin and dealing a few extra mortals on the way out. I think the high save compared to similar cavalry units is definitely an advantage of the Blood Knights. The step from 4+ to 3+ is huge! Edited May 20, 2021 by Neil Arthur Hotep 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor_Jesues Posted May 20, 2021 Share Posted May 20, 2021 6 minutes ago, Aren73 said: Also smaller unit footprint on Vargheists than Blood Knights. More Vargheists will get in range to attack/fit in tight spaces. this could be it. In the game i had last day i felt like vargeists boxed really well but it probably was because i managed to get all 6 into combat twice (i wiped a stormcast unit, got the speed buff and then charged a ballista wiping that too xD) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted May 20, 2021 Author Share Posted May 20, 2021 Do you think there are any interesting models to ally in from Nighthaunt or Flesh Eater Courts? The Abhorrant Archregent looks kinda interesting. A 2 cast wizard that summons 20 Ghouls for a command point. He also fits aesthetically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Syf Posted May 20, 2021 Share Posted May 20, 2021 On the chaff front... I'm going for Blood Knight heavy Kalesti lists but realize I need a unit of trash to sit on at least one objective. I've never in all my years had zombies, yet they seem like the better option to skegs. Or just a 20 unit of grave guard with shields? Keen on others thoughts on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakithe Posted May 20, 2021 Share Posted May 20, 2021 2 hours ago, Ferrus65 said: Coven Throne (we also can talk about this, I don't even like the model.. or better, I'd like to build something more Kastelai themed, but no ideas at all) 310 pts Im in the camp of 'it has a great CA but still not worth the points'. Buuuuut you know what adds up to 310 to replace it? 2 units of Vargheists! Still vampires and they have a built in deep strike that can compliment the Blood Knights 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted May 20, 2021 Author Share Posted May 20, 2021 2 minutes ago, El Syf said: On the chaff front... I'm going for Blood Knight heavy Kalesti lists but realize I need a unit of trash to sit on at least one objective. I've never in all my years had zombies, yet they seem like the better option to skegs. Or just a 20 unit of grave guard with shields? Keen on others thoughts on this. If unsupported (no pet Necromancer or anything), I think 30 skeletons are the best for sitting on an objective and being reasonably expected to hold it. My next go-to would be 2x20 Zombies, because while they will die if anything touches them, they can potentially hold two objectives and are the cheapest bodies per point. 20 Grave Guard are too expensive to just sit around, in my opinion. And they might actually be less survivable than Skeletons even with their 4+ save, since they are much harder to heal. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor_Jesues Posted May 20, 2021 Share Posted May 20, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said: If unsupported (no pet Necromancer or anything), I think 30 skeletons are the best for sitting on an objective and being reasonably expected to hold it. My next go-to would be 2x20 Zombies, because while they will die if anything touches them, they can potentially hold two objectives and are the cheapest bodies per point. 20 Grave Guard are too expensive to just sit around, in my opinion. And they might actually be less survivable than Skeletons even with their 4+ save, since they are much harder to heal. wolves could be good obj nabbers, they seem suprisingly hardy for their points Edited May 20, 2021 by Raptor_Jesues 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted May 20, 2021 Author Share Posted May 20, 2021 1 minute ago, Raptor_Jesues said: wolves could be good obj nabbers Definitely! I will probably put at least one unit of them in all my lists. But for camping on objectives, they are probably worse than either Zombies or Skeletons, mostly because they have fewer bodies and you are wasting their biggest asset, which is their speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidsteel Posted May 20, 2021 Share Posted May 20, 2021 I guess the speed for Wolves could mean that they can camp an objective, then realistically get involved turn 4 or 5 potentially. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor_Jesues Posted May 20, 2021 Share Posted May 20, 2021 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said: Definitely! I will probably put at least one unit of them in all my lists. But for camping on objectives, they are probably worse than either Zombies or Skeletons, mostly because they have fewer bodies and you are wasting their biggest asset, which is their speed. a thing that i like to do is to abuse the wolves bigger bases. I put them in a defensive semi circle right on top of the obj border (6" from it basically) so that as long as 1 is still living the objective is still mine. I need to make some calculations about actual points per hardyness though Edited May 20, 2021 by Raptor_Jesues Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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