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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

As far as I am aware, usually 3+ from their prayer. I think they can be 2+ if you really want to.

i dont thinks so. played alot of games against fyreslayer, never someone had a 2+ save

Edited by Erdemo86
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2 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Maybe GG+Mannfred?

A lot of points, but HGB are one of the best defensive units in the whole game.

Great Blades Grave Guard without buffs already perform decently. This is for 20 Grave Guard.

Save     Grave Guard (Great Wight Blades)
2+ 6.67
3+ 8.89
4+ 11.11
5+ 13.33
6+ 15.56
- 15.56
 
Not nearly 40 wounds worth of damage, though. If you get them to 3 attacks 2+/2+ you get these numbers:
 
Save     Grave Guard (buffed)
2+ 18.06
3+ 25
4+ 31.94
5+ 38.89
6+ 45.83
- 45.83
 
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6 minutes ago, Erdemo86 said:

i dont thinks so. played alot of games against fyreslayer, never someone had a 2+ save

Rune Smiter on Magmadroth gives you another +1:
 

Quote

 

Grand Ritual of Awakening:

Once per battle, during your hero phase, you can say this model has consumed a nugget of ur-gold. If you do so, add 1 to save rolls for attacks that target friendly Fyreslayers units wholly within 12" of this model until the start of your next hero phase.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Rune Smiter on Magmadroth gives you another +1:
 

 

ok now we are at 3+ once a game... if you charge them in the turn they used all save++ its your fault..

but dont mind, if you count all the possibilitys of buffs they could have at a 1000 points game, then ok..

Edited by Erdemo86
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Just now, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Not nearly 40 wounds worth of damage, though. If you get them to 3 attacks 2+/2+ you get these numbers:

 
 
Save     Grave Guard (buffed)
2+ 18.06
3+ 25
4+ 31.94
5+ 38.89
6+ 45.83
- 45.83
 

That's really nice to crack one of the best defenive units in the whole game!!

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Boar said:

FS can take battalion that can give them +1 to save, or +2 save if facing double turn. It all depends on exact build

So now we have a battalion, magmadroth and 20 hearthguards berserkers at 1000 points. 2nd battleline, and all of that is the requirement of the battalion.. oh and we need a Runfather general so hearthguards are battleline. Anything else inside the 1000 points?

Edited by Erdemo86
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So it seems Grave Guard could crack them if you can fight twice with Danse and get some buffs off.

I guess the trouble is them striking first and fighting twice as well, they will chop up a unit of Grave Guard without breaking a sweat.

 

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17 minutes ago, Erdemo86 said:

ok now we are at 3+ once a game... if you charge them in the turn they used all save++ its your fault..

but dont mind, if you count all the possibilitys of buffs they could have at a 1000 points game, then ok..

Don't really know why you think this is a weird scenario. As far as I am aware, getting a big HGB block on a 3+/4++ is one of the best and most commonly seen tricks Fyreslayers have.

Basically get Hearthguard, get a Battlesmith for +1 saves, get your priest to use Prayer of Ash (3+ to be answered near the forge, +1 to saves). You'll be on 3+/4++ more often than not. Runesmiter is just an option if you really want to go all the way to 2+ or for when the prayer fails.

6 minutes ago, Beliman said:

That's really nice to crack one of the best defenive units in the whole game!!

2+/2+ is fairly achievable to. Vyrkos with Mannfred CA or Coven Throne, and you are already there. Mannfred can give +1 attacks, too. +1 attacks from Vampire Lord and Radukar are also available. Plus Vanhel's, potentially, but the Necromancer is slow. You have to get the charge, though, otherwise Fyreslayers will murder your Grave Guard.

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5 minutes ago, Liquidsteel said:

So it seems Grave Guard could crack them if you can fight twice with Danse and get some buffs off.

I guess the trouble is them striking first and fighting twice as well, they will chop up a unit of Grave Guard without breaking a sweat.

 

Good point, I always forget they also fight first. Don't really know how to get around that. Coven Throne spell? Orb of Enchantment from Legion of Blood?

Anyway, probably safer to just not charge the Hearthguard fortress.

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Coven Throne and a Buttload (technical term) of Blood Knights?
Pop a mystic shield on them for a 2+ rerollable, get them hitting on 2+/2+. 

They won't kill the Hearthguard but they'll grind them down eventually and not too many will die. 

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Well, you can load up Zombies with buffs and pile in from outside 3" to avoid their ASF.

Or, you could go Legion of Blood, with a general with Sanguine Blur. Charge the Grave Guard on the corner and stay away, whilst also charging the other corner with dire wolves or something.

They won't be able to pile in as many bodies due to being pinned, and you can then use the 6" pile on Grave Guard to max your attacks.

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

 You have to get the charge, though, otherwise Fyreslayers will murder your Grave Guard.

That's why we have wolves!! Even zombies with their 19" marathon sprint (3" (batallion)+4" (move)+6" run+6" Pile In).

Edited by Beliman
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5 minutes ago, Aren73 said:

Coven Throne and a Buttload (technical term) of Blood Knights?
Pop a mystic shield on them for a 2+ rerollable, get them hitting on 2+/2+. 

They won't kill the Hearthguard but they'll grind them down eventually and not too many will die. 

Blood Knights numbers. 5 models, leader bonus included:

Save   Blood Knights  

Blood Knights

with Coven Throne

Blood Knights

+1 attack

2+ 2.68 4.26 3.53
3+ 4.18 6.67 5.5
4+ 5.68 9.07 7.47
5+ 7.18 11.48 9.44
6+ 8.67 13.89 11.42
- 8.99 14.44 11.83

 

3 minutes ago, Liquidsteel said:

Well, you can load up Zombies with buffs and pile in from outside 3" to avoid their ASF.

Or, you could go Legion of Blood, with a general with Sanguine Blur. Charge the Grave Guard on the corner and stay away, whilst also charging the other corner with dire wolves or something.

They won't be able to pile in as many bodies due to being pinned, and you can then use the 6" pile on Grave Guard to max your attacks.

Zombies might actually be fairly cost-effective in this case. They have the exact tools you want (mortals and a long pile in). 4 mortal wounds per 20 models and attack. I doubt you'll get to 40 wounds, but throwing away 230 points of Zombies to put a sizable dent into a Hearthguard block seems worth it. Especially since you are pretty likely to get half of them back later for free.

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4 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Blood Knights numbers. 5 models, leader bonus included

By Buttload ™️ I did mean at least 10. But, whether 10 get to attack or not is debatable, they only have a 1" reach the poor things. 

 

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10 minutes ago, Aren73 said:

By Buttload ™️ I did mean at least 10. But, whether 10 get to attack or not is debatable, they only have a 1" reach the poor things.

Sure, I just calulated 5 to provide a base line :)

Anyway, I think against 20 guys you should probably be able to fit 10 Blood Knights in.

Here's the damage for 10 Hearthguard (no buffs). Unsure how many you should actually expect to get into combat, they have 2" reach but 32mm bases. This is calcualted against rerolling saves and a 6+ FNP.

Save   Hearthguard Berzerker Axe   Hearthguard Mortals Axe
2+ 3.46 6
3+ 6.48 7.13
4+ 9.51 8.26
5+ 12.53 9.4
6+ 15.56 10.53
- 15.56 11.67

In my opinion, this data makes Zombies actually look pretty good! HGBs barely deal any damage with their mortal wounds axes against a save of '-'.

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Posted (edited)

Fair fair, it will just end up being a multiple of that anyway. 

12 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

In my opinion, this data makes Zombies actually look pretty good! HGBs barely deal any damage with their mortal wounds axes against a save of '-'.

That's still 12 zombies dead, against 10 Berzerkers with no buffs. Against larger units with some support we could get to half the unit disappearing in one round of combat. And then you're forced to spend the CP to negate the brutal battleshock. 

However against skellies with Vanhels on them...as long as you're good for Battleshock then the skellies will bump straight back up to 30 models and while strong, the Hearthguard don't wipe 30 skellies which is what you want. 

As long as a few, even 1, skellie lives then you get the whole 30 man unit back xD

EDIT: Of course, Skellies won't kill the Hearthguard. Skeletons need a hammer unit to help them do the damage, but as an anvil skeletons are 👌

Edited by Aren73
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Don't forget that zombies will grow in size and with Danse can fight twice.

As it stands, they can grow larger than their max/starting size.

If you can buff their attacks, you might add enough zombies to keep them alive and kicking.

 

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5 minutes ago, Aren73 said:

Fair fair, it will just end up being a multiple of that anyway. 

That's still 12 zombies dead, against 10 Berzerkers with no buffs. Against larger units with some support we could get to half the unit disappearing in one round of combat. And then you're forced to spend the CP to negate the brutal battleshock. 

However against skellies with Vanhels on them...as long as you're good for Battleshock then the skellies will bump straight back up to 30 models and while strong, the Hearthguard don't wipe 30 skellies which is what you want. 

As long as a few, even 1, skellie lives then you get the whole 30 man unit back xD

EDIT: Of course, Skellies won't kill the Hearthguard. Skeletons need a hammer unit to help them do the damage, but as an anvil skeletons are 👌

Skeletons might be the black horse champions of this whole thing. If you can keep their unit size high enough, they might just out-capture the Hearthguard on whatever point they are camping. Although I htink Zombies do OK on that front, too.

The problem with Vanhel's is that you only get it in your own turn, though. So your opponent might be able to just make you attack first the first time around, denying one healing trigger and you won't get two healing triggers on your opponent's turn.

This is really why I am currently not even sure if the Necromancer is a good unit. He gets Vanhel's, but he's too slow to reliably give it to hard hitters. Plus it's a spell and he has no cast bonuses. He gets access to the great Deathmages lore, but again, one cast no bonuses. I want to test him out as support for Skeletons or Zombies, but I don't really know if a Vampire Lord is not just better in a lot of situations.

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Also with Fyreslayers, it's the heroes that confer the 4+ FNP over the regular 6+.

I'm wondering if with our access to speed and fly, we might be able to get in to them first and turn it off.

 

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Vanhels has been changed, it lasts until your next hero phase:

 

Vanhel’s Danse Macabre: The undead are filled with magical energy that causes them to ****** forwards and attack with tireless, unnatural speed. Vanhel’s Danse Macabre has a casting value of 6. If successfully cast, pick 1 friendly Soulblight Gravelords Summonable unit wholly within 18" of the caster. Until your next hero phase, if that unit has fought only once in the combat phase, when it is your turn to pick a unit to fight, that unit can be picked to fight for a second time if it is within 3" of any enemy units.

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1 hour ago, Erdemo86 said:

So now we have a battalion, magmadroth and 20 hearthguards berserkers at 1000 points. 2nd battleline, and all of that is the requirement of the battalion.. oh and we need a Runfather general so hearthguards are battleline. Anything else inside the 1000 points?

Hey I'm just saying what could be used, FS has lot of ways for increased saves

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3 minutes ago, Liquidsteel said:

Vanhels has been changed, it lasts until your next hero phase:

 

Vanhel’s Danse Macabre: The undead are filled with magical energy that causes them to ****** forwards and attack with tireless, unnatural speed. Vanhel’s Danse Macabre has a casting value of 6. If successfully cast, pick 1 friendly Soulblight Gravelords Summonable unit wholly within 18" of the caster. Until your next hero phase, if that unit has fought only once in the combat phase, when it is your turn to pick a unit to fight, that unit can be picked to fight for a second time if it is within 3" of any enemy units.

That auto-censor is hilarious.

Also, great news! I had totally missed that update.

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It's really dawning on me that skeletons are super fun with Vanhels! 

You can get really tactical with their activations, decide exactly at which point you need models back in the unit. 

Scenario:
Enemy kills 20 dudes from a 30 man skeleton unit. 
Skeletons activate and return 10, to go to 20 man unit, whack back. 
Enemy activates another unit killing 15 skeletons, you're down to 5 ouch. 
You activate skeletons and roll 35 for returning (yup, that's how it works, faq'ed and all) and get back 17. 
The 22 skeletons again whack, doing a little damage. 
You use the battleshock command ability because battleshock on skeletons in these situations always sucks. 

Skeletons with multiple activations are great, quite useful and very thematic. They just keep reassembling once you kill them. 

Someone at GW has clearly been playing in the Catacombs in Dark Souls recently. 

 

1 minute ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

This is really why I am currently not even sure if the Necromancer is a good unit. He gets Vanhel's, but he's too slow to reliably give it to hard hitters. Plus it's a spell and he has no cast bonuses. He gets access to the great Deathmages lore, but again, one cast no bonuses. I want to test him out as support for Skeletons or Zombies, but I don't really know if a Vampire Lord is not just better in a lot of situations.

It all depends if you care about durability or hitting power. Skeletons really shouldn't be doing damage in your army - don't even think about their damage output, it's irrelevant and insignificant. They require a hammer unit alongside them. 
However, a Necromancer and the -1 to wound corpse cart? Amazing. 
Skeletons are slow anyway so they'll keep up, I'll probably run mine right in the middle of a blob of skeletons. 

I recommend Vargheists as the hammer because:

  1. Vargheists need an anvil. They are too fragile to stick around. Skeletons need a hammer...it was meant to be
  2. Vargheists are fast (can even deepstrike if you care), faster than Blood Knights and easier to get all into combat
  3. Can fly and have a smaller footprint than Blood Knights - making manouvers and again getting into combat easier
  4. Don't degrade past the charge so if they do stick around for a second combat phase they'll still perform as you want them to (though then you have to worry about damage). 

30 Skeletons. Necromancer for Vanhels and battleshock. Corpse cart for -1 to wound. 6 Vargheists to flank and be the hammer. 

Those skeletons are not dying, the Vargheists are providing the muscle, everyone's happy. 

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