Soulblight Gravelords News, Rumours and Speculation

[Nightseer2012]

Final wishlist for an uncertain future... I hope the White Dwarf lets us make our own Vengorian Lord.

[Aren73]

Just now, Nightseer2012 said:

Final wishlist for an uncertain future... I hope the White Dwarf lets us make our own Vengorian Lord.

Nope, it doesn't. 

Necromancer, Wight King, Vampire Lord Fighty, Vampire Lord Magicky. 

Hey though, Vengorian Lords actually have decent flavour in this book, more than most. 

[Rachmani]

I totally agree with you on the vampire lords @Aren73.

Back in the day, you could customize your vampires according to the clan they were from. Being Carstein meant something. Same for the others. Now we get the special characters that in deed feel special, but the "generic Vampire lord" is a dude as bland as any other. There is just no flavor in them. The feel... lifeless. But not in a good way.

[Sception]

13 minutes ago, Aren73 said:

Nope, it doesn't. 

Necromancer, Wight King, Vampire Lord Fighty, Vampire Lord Magicky. 

Hey though, Vengorian Lords actually have decent flavour in this book, more than most. 

Yeah, they're not necessarily great in the rules - their signature lets you run and charge - but probably only later in the game when it's not as good.  And they have a decent close range command ability, that you will probably only get to use early on when its out of range.  Whoops!

But they've got other decent stuff, and they at least feel interesting.  I've got problems with their rules, but 'bland' isn't one of them.

hopefully anvil rules do something decent for the other heroes.  Maybe a halfway okay custom wight king for battleline grave guard?  Mounted fighty vamp lord to lead some blood knights?  Casty vamp lord could be cool too.  Obviously none of that matched play legal, but I play casul games mostly, so if it's neat then I'll happily make use of it.

...

as for official changes, vamp lords need so much work, but starting by making them equivalent to Abhorrent Archregents rather than Abhorrent Ghoul Kings would be a start.  150 to 160 point 6 wound 6 attack double caster with a decent signature spell - maybe old school vile transference, and toss the new version from the lore to make room for something else.  Maybe drop the command ability and flight from the vamp lord scroll, and drop grave sites & endless legions from the faction rules to add in a 'bloodline traits' system for vampire heroes that includes an option to get back the command ability if you want a commander of lesser undead themed lord, or get flight at a real movement rate, or summon zombies or fell bats or dire wolves FEC style, or ethereal, or what have you.  Buncha options - like 6 core options plus 3 per dynasty for variety and so there's enough that you can forbid duplicates.  Or none core and 6 per dynasty, allowing repeats where appropriate.

Ugh, so easy to look at this book and get completely sidetracked with unproductive wish listing and day dreaming about what could have been.

Edited May 15, 2021 by Sception

[Aren73]

15 minutes ago, Sception said:

Stuff

The rend degrading bubble is pretty good though especially if you're running them alongside Blood Knights. 

Especially if those knights have a 2+ save...

 

As for vampire lords:

Easy fix: Give them 5 attacks and reroll 1s to hit as standard - they really do need it otherwise they hit worse than a wight king. A WIGHT KING. Let that sink in ⛲

Then, give them a choice of 1 of 6 (12 if we're really hopeful) Vampire Powers. Your standard stuff like +1 to cast, 12" fly, -2 Bravery around them etc. 

And then make them like 170 points ish. 

Done, flavourful but not broken Vampire Lord, if anything a bit on the weak side. 

[Izotzuhure]

1 hour ago, Nightseer2012 said:

Finally can look at Neferata's warscroll.  Her dagger can assassinate heroes sometimes, could be really good for big monster heroes with low saves, since it is only rend -1.  At least she is a 2 cast, 3+ save wizard with a good spell and CA.  Feels like a strong duelist escort to whatever your general is, handing out -1 to hits, ethereal+, and debuffs from the Deathmages lore.

Pairing her with Vhordrai could be quite interesting as she would benefit from his CA and double the chances of killing a big hero if it survived. 

Vampiro Lords are just walking CA that lack all of the creativity that they once had. Something similar to the Ogor Tyrant would have been enough to make them a little bit more interesting. 

[Izotzuhure]

Double post, sorry. 

Edited May 15, 2021 by Izotzuhure

[Sception]

1 minute ago, Aren73 said:

The rend degrading bubble is pretty good though especially if you're running them alongside Blood Knights. 

Especially if those knights have a 2+ save...

 

As for vampire lords:

Easy fix: Give them 5 attacks and reroll 1s to hit as standard - they really do need it otherwise they hit worse than a wight king. A WIGHT KING. Let that sink in ⛲

Then, give them a choice of 1 of 6 (12 if we're really hopeful) Vampire Powers. Your standard stuff like +1 to cast, 12" fly, -2 Bravery around them etc. 

And then make them like 170 points ish. 

Done, flavourful but not broken Vampire Lord, if anything a bit on the weak side. 

If that's your only changes they'll be pretty bad. 170 is too much for that.

rr1s is an annoying rule I don't like it as a buff and don't want it base for vamps.  I don't have a problem with wight kings hitting as good or better than vamps.  Most are older and more experienced.  Vampire's more deadly anyway.

again, 6 wounds, 6 attacks, double caster, sig spell, give back the mounted option (+20 points for +2 wound and mount speed & profile), trade the CA for vampire powers.

...

Wight king also needs changes, and trading out the rr1s CA is the first thing.  Give them something that specifically synergizes with deathrattle, particularly the grave guard they make battleline.  I'm thinking "re-roll wounds" to go with the 6's to wound to proc mortals.  Not reroll ones, not reroll fails, reroll any rules rolls you want.  If you want to risk losing a successful wound for another chance at a mortal go for it.  Then drop his points by like 20 to 30.  Ditch the impact hits on the mounted wight king and give them a proper lance instead.

For black knights, ditch the impact hits, give them +1 armor for their shields, and give them a lance rule based on the grave guard - 6's to wound proc mortals on the charge.  Still not great, I don't want them to outshine the new blood knights, but more of a reason for them and more of a reason to run the wight king with them.

For skeletons, change unit size to 20/40, drop cost to like 140ish, give them reach (enough have spears to say the spear armed skittles fill in the back ranks.  Or keep them more expensive at like 170ish, forget the reach, and give them flat 2 attacks like ghouls & ghosts.

[Sception]

Listening to some of the in depth reviews now.  I kind of like the LoNight artefacts.  Can get a VLoZD that ignores rend from shooting attacks, or a necro who carves runes for +2 to cast aura before climbing on top of a balewind.  Some ok stuff.

[Aren73]

8 minutes ago, Sception said:

again, 6 wounds, 6 attacks, double caster, sig spell, give back the mounted option (+20 points for +2 wound and mount speed & profile), trade the CA for vampire powers.

Where one of the vampire powers would be the CA?

All that sounds amazing, I'd take it in a heartbeat. I was just expressing how I would even take worse rules over the current rules if it meant that the vampire lord plays more fun. 

But again, Anvil of Blood coming up so keeping my hopes up. 

On that note - shouldn't there have been reviews out today on that White Dwarf? Youtube videos on preorder copies and the such...I can't find any anywhere

[Envyus]

16 hours ago, Nightseer2012 said:

It seems odd to me, they mention how much certain rules improve, but make no effort to mention the limitations on some of the rules they are lauding.  Not talking about how Invigorating Aura doesn't stack, for instance (and is really bad in an army of lvl 1 wizards), or that they limited the use of Deathly Invocation (previously IoN) to ONCE per turn, and made the range smaller on TOP of making it wholly within the smaller range.  Or talking about how Endless Legions.  They say it is awesome to not need your general, because now you can just summon up your unit anywhere.

 

Deathly Invocation can be used as many times as you have sumonable units to heal. It's limited to healing the same unit, but you have other ways to heal them as well. Endless Legions is way better then it used to be. You can just get lots of free units. 

[InvkrMainr]

Hey guys I've been in a coma for 5 years, how are my favourite unit to play with, Black Knights doing?

 

/Jk

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

29 minutes ago, Sception said:

Wight king also needs changes, and trading out the rr1s CA is the first thing.  Give them something that specifically synergizes with deathrattle, particularly the grave guard they make battleline.

In an ideal world, it would be run and charge, or a 4" move. Would match the flavour, too.

EDIT: Black Knights would have been fine with their old warscroll, just with the shield replaced with a 4+ save. They would then still deal good damage on the charge, but with no rend. That would mean they have a different niche from Blood Knights. If Wight Kings got run+charge, that would make Deathmarch viable again, too, because then you could still run your Black Knights 24"+.

Edited May 15, 2021 by Neil Arthur Hotep

[Nightseer2012]

Oh, just noticed on Neferata, her Hunger is replaced with Mortarch of Blood.  Heals D6 instead of D3 when she kills in combat.  Helps her survivability a lot.

[Aren73]

Tell me why is it easier for us to think up flavour friendly, fun rules on the spot here but GW struggle to do so?

And before you say "It won't be as well balanced" - maybe not as well, but probably not as badly as you might think. Surprisingly people don't actually want broken battletomes, and the ones that do are vastly outweighed by the ones that don't. 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

6 minutes ago, Nightseer2012 said:

Oh, just noticed on Neferata, her Hunger is replaced with Mortarch of Blood.  Heals D6 instead of D3 when she kills in combat.  Helps her survivability a lot.

She is so defensive with her spell giving ethereal, her CA giving -1 to hit and her 3+ save which can probably be a 2+ rerolling if you really want to.

[JackOfBlades]

I assume the Legions of Nagash units will be made unuseable in matched play, right? I ask because the corpse cart's unholy lodestone in LoN works with all DEATH wizards, so i can ally it into FEC, but the new one is restricted to SOULBLIGHT GRAVELORDS and thus my evil plan is undone.

Edited May 15, 2021 by JackOfBlades

[Sception]

Officially?  Newest warscrolls and points values replace old ones with the same name, even in other books.  Unofficially, you can do whatever you want as long as your opponent is ok with it.

[Sete]

It's a shame Grave Guard did not have a new model release. I'm wondering how to convert tbh.

[pixieproxy]

Honestly if you have old skeletons, the new skellies could be Grave Guard, although a bit weird to run them with great blades I guess

[InvkrMainr]

2 minutes ago, pixieproxy said:

Honestly if you have old skeletons, the new skellies could be Grave Guard, although a bit weird to run them with great blades I guess

Was thinking of doing that myself to be honest.

Is it too conspiracy theory to think that they completely gutted Black Knights to hype up Blood Knights instead?

 

Also hyping up Wight Kings and they received nothing??

Just a shame that it seems Deathrattle has basically been forgotten in favour of Vampires and FEC.

[Verminlord]

5 hours ago, Elmir said:

Ironically, you seem to miss that those skeletons are also getting necro support in that comparison vs the vargheists. 

You also don't need zombies to be ridiculous all the time. The point is that you can GET them to be ridiculous while regular skeletons just plain can't. A unit who's ability requires it to get close to massacred before it's semi useful, is just plain not as good... not in an army that already doesn't lack tanky units in the form of blood knights who are, even without support, one of the tankiest units in the game.... and if you give them support, can become downright obnoxious while still being fast. 

Skeleton usefulness is VERY circumstantial while zombies have got a lot more going for them in general... Even if there are some fringe cases where the enemy can spend a ton of attack power to destroy a 230p unit. They are our new skinks... another unit that needs a bit of support to get there, but (like you said) can become insane when you do. 

I'm gonna have to disagree. It does not take a "ton" of damage or effort to clear 40 wounds with no save. Lot of people are going to be real disappointed with their zombies when they get wiped in a turn before they can do anything back.

The fact is you have to spend way too many points for zombies to be anything more than a distraction and if you're supporting them and they get killed you're left with a huge waste of support points. There are just better things to spend points on.

Skeletons don't need support at all to do their job well. They are way more efficient. I'm also not sure why you would compare cheap skeleton horde anvils to elite cav blood knights...

 

6 hours ago, Doko said:

Its 100% the oposite for any min\maxing dude, nobody gonna get the shield as never.

Shield 16% better survivality

2 hand 100% more damage

 

The diference is as.........no chance of getting shields

@Neil Arther Hotep explained it for you better than I could. 👍

Edited May 15, 2021 by Verminlord

[Elmir]

25 minutes ago, Verminlord said:

I'm gonna have to disagree. It does not take a "ton" of damage or effort to clear 40 wounds with no save. Lot of people are going to be real disappointed with their zombies when they get wiped in a turn before they can do anything back.

The fact is you have to spend way too many points for zombies to be anything more than a distraction and if you're supporting them and they get killed you're left with a huge waste of support points. There are just better things to spend points on.

Skeletons don't need support at all to do their job well. They are way more efficient. I'm also not sure why you would compare cheap skeleton horde anvils to elite cav blood knights...

Per point... There is literally no difference that 5+ save makes when zombies are 2/3 of the cost that skeletons are. In fact, rend only makes killing an equal amount of points of skellies more efficient compared to zombies. 

[JackStreicher]

2 hours ago, Aren73 said:

The rend degrading bubble is pretty good though especially if you're running them alongside Blood Knights. 

Especially if those knights have a 2+ save...

 

As for vampire lords:

Easy fix: Give them 5 attacks and reroll 1s to hit as standard - they really do need it otherwise they hit worse than a wight king. A WIGHT KING. Let that sink in ⛲

Then, give them a choice of 1 of 6 (12 if we're really hopeful) Vampire Powers. Your standard stuff like +1 to cast, 12" fly, -2 Bravery around them etc. 

And then make them like 170 points ish. 

Done, flavourful but not broken Vampire Lord, if anything a bit on the weak side. 

Make it simpler:

Keep their current stats. Add All Vyrkos Bloodborn special rules and a table of special rules depending on their dynasty.

They didn‘t even bother to make the Warscroll feel like a vampire:

supernatural Speed? Nope

supernatural Resilience? Nope

incredible strength? Nope

Ancient Cunning? nope

Can turn into Mist/fog/bats/vermin? Kind of, yet veeeery slow.

Powerful Necromancer? Nope

Generic AoS hero profile? Hell yes!

They already had written all the rules they needed, they simply didn’t bother to put them on the right warscroll(s) 

🥲

Edited May 15, 2021 by JackStreicher

[Verminlord]

26 minutes ago, Elmir said:

Per point... There is literally no difference that 5+ save makes when zombies are 2/3 of the cost that skeletons are. In fact, rend only makes killing an equal amount of points of skellies more efficient compared to zombies. 

There is more to efficiency than point value. Skeletons don't need support. You've ignored the rest of my points.