Elmir Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 1 minute ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said: This talk about allying in Nighthaunt reminds, though: At the moment, we can still ally in that Nighthaunt Hexwraith battalion (Emerald Host?) which provides a bodyguard ability to the general. It's not like our generals are fragile (mostly 3+ saves and a bunch of wounds) or really all that important anymore, but it does serve a crucial function in the army: Allowing you to proxy your Black Knights as a unit with a decent warscroll. That's only going to be an option for about 2 months though. That being said, I don't see any point in running any NH after that. The SGL books locks out any non-SGL summonable units from their army rules... Can't use invocation on them, can't use endless legion on them. The books are well and truly operating on their own now LoN is scrapped. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted May 14, 2021 Author Share Posted May 14, 2021 Just now, Elmir said: That's only going to be an option for about 2 months though. Yep, geth them while the balefire is hot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted May 14, 2021 Author Share Posted May 14, 2021 3 minutes ago, Darkhan said: Someone mentioned zombie summon can go over the unit cap of 40? How? And source pls;p It's on the warscroll. It just says add a model for every model slain by zombies on a 2+. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aren73 Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 32 minutes ago, umpac said: Only the Scythe deals MWs on 6s and the abilities are pretty mediocre and random. You also need to wait for level 3-5 before they kick in. The Coach is bad in NH and hardly better in SGL, we have much much better options. If you already have one and like the model, which you should because its godlike, then go for it. Other than "rule of cool" there is no reason to take it. It's also on the Relic Bearer's. Which isn't much but it's an extra average 1.5 MWs more 13 minutes ago, Sception said: I mean, it's considered pretty terrible in nighthaunt lists, who do get some amount of synergy with it. Even if it were a native army choice and its healing worked on SG units, it would still be a bad choice better left on the display shelf. We're expecting a new nighthaunt battletome in the not-too-distant future. Since the coach is kind of universally acknowledged as bad in its current form, one would hope for it to see some significant improvements which might make it more viable as an ally choice as well. Until then, I would instead recommend asking your opponents if they'd let you use it as a proxy for a mortis engine or coven throne. I doubt it would be a problem in casual local games at least. That's a shame...I love the model, it's the one thing I kept before selling my NH army (they just didn't vibe with me as much as LoN did). Still, on average we're looking at maybe 3MW from its attacks, d3 from its charge and another d3 from the final power (which yes, you may never get, it's a gamble but let me have this ). 3+2d3 isn't necessarily a bad MW output and the unit isn't all that expensive. But you're probably right...dammit I was hoping that would be my very-thematic-but-also-viable list. As for proxying it for a Coven throne, nah. I like to play more or less WYSIWYG. I want the model to represent its rules, it feels more immersive, it makes it more fun for me. I'm not a big fan of "use cool model and slap your chosen warscroll on it". I do however have a Coven Throne that I may well put to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 6 minutes ago, Darkhan said: Someone mentioned zombie summon can go over the unit cap of 40? How? And source pls;p their rule adding zombies to their unit when they kill things doesn't return slain models, it adds new ones. So they can go over their starting deployment size. Whether they can go over their maximum unit size depends on how the rule for maximum unit size is worded in the 3rd edition matched play rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 2 minutes ago, Aren73 said: That's a shame...I love the model Everyone loves that model. "The black coach really is an amazing model, it's such a shame that GW didn't bother to give it rules" is a commonly heard lament... meme... lamement? But in the meme time, it does make for a nice counts-as coven throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkhan Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 2 minutes ago, Sception said: their rule adding zombies to their unit when they kill things doesn't return slain models, it adds new ones. So they can go over their starting deployment size. Whether they can go over their maximum unit size depends on how the rule for maximum unit size is worded in the 3rd edition matched play rules. But 3rd edition is not out yet;p if we go by todays rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 21 minutes ago, Elmir said: Must have not played NH for a while. I mean, I've been in quarantine for a while. 220 is a fair bit cheaper. I guess I could see throwing that in on a whim. Points seem kind of tight in the gravelords, though, so I'm still skeptical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aren73 Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 2 minutes ago, Sception said: I mean, I've been in quarantine for a while. 220 is a fair bit cheaper. I guess I could see throwing that in on a whim. Points seem kind of tight in the gravelords, though, so I'm still skeptical. I wonder how it compares to a Vengorian lord. The coach might actually out-damage them, perhaps. And may even be more durable. But Vengorians have more synergy. They are 60 points more though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkhan Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 Anyone notice that the zombie warscroll does not mention anything about mortal wounds, when rolling for enemies models slain to add new zombies? "for each enemy model slain by wounds inflicted by this unit's attacks"....ups.🤣 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belmail Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Darkhan said: Anyone notice that the zombie warscroll does not mention anything about mortal wounds, when rolling for enemies models slain to add new zombies? "for each enemy model slain by wounds inflicted by this unit's attacks"....ups.🤣 I do believe mortal wounds caused as part of a weapon's attack counts as wounds inflicted by the model. In the core rules under mortal wounds. "After they have been allocated, a mortal wound is treated in the same manner as any other wound for all rules purposes." Edited May 14, 2021 by Belmail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrungnisBeard Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 Looking to get my pre-orders in tomorrow and to start off with a 1000 points Kastelai list . Any recommendations between these 3 list? The only big difference is the general, but I just can't settle on which one I want to start with. I really like the theme of Vhordrai leading Blood Knights so slightly leaning that way. List 1: Vhordrai 2X 5 Blood Knights 20 Zombies List 2: Vengorian Lord Necromancer 2X 5 Blood Knights 20 Zombies 3 Fell Bats (mainly for objectives) List 3: Mannfred 2X 5 Blood Knights 20 Zombies 3 Fell Bats (mainly for objectives) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkhan Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 8 minutes ago, Belmail said: I do believe mortal wounds caused as part of a weapon's attack counts as wounds inflicted by the model. In the core rules under mortal wounds. "After they have been allocated, a mortal wound is treated in the same manner as any other wound for all rules purposes." Thanks mate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RocketPropelledGrenade Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 8 hours ago, FeralMulan said: Problem is a lot of people are saying "DW, maybe that's the new standard in AoS 3!" Maybe - but until EVERYONE gets a new Battletome to bring them up to line, Tzeentch, Seraphon and Lumineth will have even MORE overwhelming magic in that case. I mean Christ. Look at Vile Transference. Look at how they massacred my boy. So sad. A problem with this line of thinking is that if every tome is buffed to keep up with the broken issues of the front runners until the front runners can be adjusted, then the front runners can never be adjusted. I'd much rather exist in the middle and allow there to be design space for adjusting those factions downwards than make the new middle a pile of broken rules and absurd combo strikes that annihilate everything. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherTalarian Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 13 minutes ago, GrungnisBeard said: Looking to get my pre-orders in tomorrow and to start off with a 1000 points Kastelai list . Any recommendations between these 3 list? The only big difference is the general, but I just can't settle on which one I want to start with. I really like the theme of Vhordrai leading Blood Knights so slightly leaning that way. List 1: Vhordrai 2X 5 Blood Knights 20 Zombies List 2: Vengorian Lord Necromancer 2X 5 Blood Knights 20 Zombies 3 Fell Bats (mainly for objectives) List 3: Mannfred 2X 5 Blood Knights 20 Zombies 3 Fell Bats (mainly for objectives) All cool lists... very tough to decide. Vhordrai is a monster, depends on your goals but at 1k list he might be overkill? Mannfred is super dope (imo) as he can buff all the BKs on the charge. I'm thinking of: Vengorian 3x5 BK 20 Zombies Comes out to 980. Think I might then expand with: Vhordrai Manny replace 20 zombies with another Vengorian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaylorCorvette Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said: This talk about allying in Nighthaunt reminds, though: At the moment, we can still ally in that Nighthaunt Hexwraith battalion (Emerald Host?) which provides a bodyguard ability to the general. It's not like our generals are fragile (mostly 3+ saves and a bunch of wounds) or really all that important anymore, but it does serve a crucial function in the army: Allowing you to proxy your Black Knights as a unit with a decent warscroll. Yes, I am going to run Dolorous Guard battalion in a Kastelai Dynasty army at a Tournament in June. Prince Vhordrai's warscroll says he is treated as a general in addition to the model that is chosen the be the army general. Based on the wording of the Dolorous Guard, you shrug wounds and mortal wounds from your "general" to them on a 2+, provided they're within 3". This means you can have 1 unit of Hexwraths bodyguard Prince Vhordrai and the other unit bodyguard your other general. It is going to be a dirty little list and likely only viable for the next 1-2 months, but might as well play it while ya can. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erdemo86 Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 (edited) 36 minutes ago, GrungnisBeard said: Looking to get my pre-orders in tomorrow and to start off with a 1000 points Kastelai list . Any recommendations between these 3 list? The only big difference is the general, but I just can't settle on which one I want to start with. I really like the theme of Vhordrai leading Blood Knights so slightly leaning that way. List 1: Vhordrai 2X 5 Blood Knights 20 Zombies List 2: Vengorian Lord Necromancer 2X 5 Blood Knights 20 Zombies 3 Fell Bats (mainly for objectives) List 3: Mannfred 2X 5 Blood Knights 20 Zombies 3 Fell Bats (mainly for objectives) The Problem is that neither Mannfred or Prince V can take an artifact or command/battle trait. I have the same Problem and can’t solve it either. VLoZD is so much worse than Prince V, so this isn’t a conclusion either. Vengorian Lord is just bad. Even in a 2 k points list Kastelei has the same problem. Edited May 14, 2021 by Erdemo86 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 Dolorous Guard is very clearly on life support. I've you're trying to prep an army for the long or even mid term there's no point. Even if they don't ban book tomes, the emerald host subfaction is pretty clearly intended to replace the emerald host battalions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaylorCorvette Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 1 minute ago, Erdemo86 said: The Problem is that neither Mannfred or Prince V can take an artifact or command/battle trait. I have the same Problem and can’t solve it either. VLoZD is so much worse than Prince V, so this isn’t a conclusion either. Vengorian Lord is just bad. Agreed. If the VLoZD still had its D6 Chalice then I'd consider that over Prince Vhordrai in several other lists. But the lack of the Chalice, a Command Ability, and decent spell REAAAAALLY make it hard to justify over Prince V. I wish they still had a winged vampire or vampire on steed. I'd like a quick cheap-ish Vampire Hero that isn't a NAMED Hero. Problem is with all these named Heroes I don't have many options to slot artefacts/command traits onto without them being expensive. Right now the Wight King is absolute garbage, otherwise the Wight King on steed would be an option. Just now, Sception said: Dolorous Guard is very clearly on life support. I've you're trying to prep an army for the long or even mid term there's no point. Even if they don't ban book tomes, the emerald host subfaction is pretty clearly intended to replace the emerald host battalions. Oh yeah 100%, I definitely do not recommend the Battalion is you don't have 10 Hexwraiths laying around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erdemo86 Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, BaylorCorvette said: Agreed. If the VLoZD still had its D6 Chalice then I'd consider that over Prince Vhordrai in several other lists. But the lack of the Chalice, a Command Ability, and decent spell REAAAAALLY make it hard to justify over Prince V. I wish they still had a winged vampire or vampire on steed. I'd like a quick cheap-ish Vampire Hero that isn't a NAMED Hero. Problem is with all these named Heroes I don't have many options to slot artefacts/command traits onto without them being expensive. Right now the Wight King is absolute garbage, otherwise the Wight King on steed would be an option. Oh yeah 100%, I definitely do not recommend the Battalion is you don't have 10 Hexwraiths laying around. Yes I’m trying now since yesterday to plan a viable Kastelei list, but can’t find any Hero that would suit the Role of the ruining Commander Battle Trait, without VLoZD and Vengorian, but both are just bad. So many good heroes Like Radukar,Beladana,Mannfred And Prince v. All of them are like an auto include Edited May 14, 2021 by Erdemo86 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FeralMulan Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 1 minute ago, Erdemo86 said: Yes I’m trying now since yesterday to plan a viable Kastelei list, but can’t find any Hero that would suit the Role of the ruining Commander Battle Trait, without VLoZD... I recommend the Vengori Lord. He benefits the most form the Kastelei buffs anyways since he has no mount. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherTalarian Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 18 minutes ago, Erdemo86 said: The Problem is that neither Mannfred or Prince V can take an artifact or command/battle trait. I have the same Problem and can’t solve it either. VLoZD is so much worse than Prince V, so this isn’t a conclusion either. Vengorian Lord is just bad. Even in a 2 k points list Kastelei has the same problem. How is the Vengorian bad? On paper seems pretty solid. Doesn't degrade, can dish out a fair number of wounds, fairly durable. Benefits from the Kastelai traits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted May 14, 2021 Author Share Posted May 14, 2021 21 minutes ago, Erdemo86 said: VLoZD is so much worse than Prince V, so this isn’t a conclusion either. Vengorian Lord is just bad. I like the VLoZD in a few subfactions. In Vyrkos he can capture worth 14 models and in Legion of Blood he can be on a 2+ save. Both of those make him worth it over Vhordrai, I think. Vengorian Lord is not too bad either. He's not super expensive with an appropriate attack profile for a hero of his point cost. The main advantages I see for him is his rend decreasing ability, but he's also fast and can be on a 3+ ignore up to rend -2 save with the Chamon realm artefact. Or rerolling 1s to save from the Shyish one. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erdemo86 Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 (edited) 50 minutes ago, BrotherTalarian said: All cool lists... very tough to decide. Vhordrai is a monster, depends on your goals but at 1k list he might be overkill? Mannfred is super dope (imo) as he can buff all the BKs on the charge. I'm thinking of: Vengorian 3x5 BK 20 Zombies Comes out to 980. Think I might then expand with: Vhordrai Manny replace 20 zombies with another Vengorian That was my idea too. Starting with Vengorian 3x 5 BKs 20 Zombies but then going diffrent with Vordrai,Radukar,Beladana, Edited May 14, 2021 by Erdemo86 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingCommander Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 I saw only a few of the leaked pages but is it correct that there are neither Endless Spells nor some kind of specific terrain in the book? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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