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Broken Realms: Teclis - SPOILER Discussion + Lore Summary


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1 hour ago, BaylorCorvette said:

Maybe I missed something but do we know for certain he's working for Neferata? Or are we just trying to read between the lines?

It says in the Teclis book one of Neferata's agents is Jelsen. No assumptions, it says it quite clearly in the text.

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21 minutes ago, Mutton said:

It says in the Teclis book one of Neferata's agents is Jelsen. No assumptions, it says it quite clearly in the text.

That's really cool! I don't have have BR: Teclis but this is very interesting it almost makes me want to buy the book to read about it.

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22 hours ago, LuminethMage said:

Have you read the book? It wasn't easy at all. And Ymetrica Warden#56,893 didn't defeat Nagash that was Teclis. Nor did Ymetrica Warden#56,893 defeat Arkhan, that was Eltharion. And both of them will be back. 

And if it's only gods and heroes that matter, other people wouldn't like that. I think it's done quite well, "normal people" still mattered in the conflict, even duels among gods, but to a large part these things were decided between the main characters. 

I think, if there was a problem in this, it would be more on the other side. We sadly didn't get a new ven Brecht. If they'd developed one of the minor characters more (be it our KO captain, or the Deathrider leader, or the Cathallar leader for example), that would have been good. That was one of my favorite parts about BR Morathi. 

I think the whole thing just doesn't feels epic to you - because you are likely not a big fan of Lumineth/Teclis nor Nagash. The duel between Teclis and Nagash was pretty epic, as well as the attack on Shiysh. Floating rock castles, sky high animated bone structures that smash them. Or people sacrificing their lives just to get to the outer end of Hysh, sacrificing yourself to provide a better afterlife for everyone etc. It doesn't have to feel epic to you of course, but neither does it mean it's inherently badly written just because it doesn't. 

They used pretty much the same approach as in BR Morathi - serval armies armies attacking/defending while the protagonist/antagonist tries to reach their goal within a time limit - her reaching godhood in BR Morathi, and here it was Nagash destroying Avalenor while everyone struggled to stop them. Ending an arc is often not as satisfying as making something new. Look at how many complaints there are about almost every ending of a popular TV or movie series. I also doubt this will be the best book in the Broken Realms alone because of that. But, I also don't think the quality was worse than BR Morathi. 

The book says it wasn't easy, but never shows how not easy it was. And funny enough, what you said would remedy that: give us some Lumineth characters to care about. We know Teclis isn't gonna die, so give us some who *can.*  Take Ymetrica Warden#56,893 and instead, make her Illyria Starshine. Tell us about her hopes and dreams, the bonds she has with her comrades and her husband and three kids back home. Tell us about others in the army. Make these statistics into characters, show us the hardships they face fighting the legions of Death itself, and then maybe I'd give a ******,

As it is, BR:T reminds me of a Michael Bay flick. Yes, there's flying rock castles and sky high animated bone structures and the embodiment of death fighting a special elf boy... but without anything to ground it and give a sense of scale to the spectacle, I just do not care. It's all flash and no substance. 

Morathi worked because I got invested in her.Yes, she was doing terrible things, but they gave us a solid, relatable grounding. Maybe its just me, but I can't relate to Teclis. I'll admit, part of my view on him is tainted thanks to the fact he considered wiping out the Cythai, his own creation, under some nebulous "darkness" in their beings. Sorry, but in my view once you consider mass murder you pretty much loose all moral high ground. Teclis comes off to me as less righteous, and more a self-righteous hypocrite. 

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Just now, TheTaintedSpud said:

The book says it wasn't easy, but never shows how not easy it was. And funny enough, what you said would remedy that: give us some Lumineth characters to care about. We know Teclis isn't gonna die, so give us some who *can.*  Take Ymetrica Warden#56,893 and instead, make her Illyria Starshine. Tell us about her hopes and dreams, the bonds she has with her comrades and her husband and three kids back home. Tell us about others in the army. Make these statistics into characters, show us the hardships they face fighting the legions of Death itself, and then maybe I'd give a ******,

As it is, BR:T reminds me of a Michael Bay flick. Yes, there's flying rock castles and sky high animated bone structures and the embodiment of death fighting a special elf boy... but without anything to ground it and give a sense of scale to the spectacle, I just do not care. It's all flash and no substance. 

Morathi worked because I got invested in her.Yes, she was doing terrible things, but they gave us a solid, relatable grounding. Maybe its just me, but I can't relate to Teclis. I'll admit, part of my view on him is tainted thanks to the fact he considered wiping out the Cythai, his own creation, under some nebulous "darkness" in their beings. Sorry, but in my view once you consider mass murder you pretty much loose all moral high ground. Teclis comes off to me as less righteous, and more a self-righteous hypocrite. 

If you can't relate to Teclis, it's no wonder that the book doesn't work for you. I agree with you about the missing "normal person" part. I think I misunderstood what you meant there in your first post. They had good opportunities to do that with all the new named heroes for the Lumineth they put in. They also didn't do much at all with the OBR. The book could have used a ven Brecht.  

The hardship and losses of the Lumineth are shown though, very much so. I think more than what they do in BR Morathi, because neither Morathi nor her DoK care about people getting hurt or killed. In BR Teclis, they use the Cathallar pretty well in that respect, even showing Lumineth soldiers trying to cope with what's basically PTSD form their campaigns in Shyish. They write about how hard it is for the Lumineth to have to burn the bones of their fallen, how desperate that is, etc. If you don't care about that, just because these aren't named individuals, I think that's on you (because you can't relate), not on the story writers. Where did they show the suffering of normal DoK in BR Morathi? They are just throw-away tools for Morathi anyway. Nor are the normal defenders in Anvilguard fleshed out any better than what happens in BR Teclis. 

On Teclis I disagree, naturally : ). There isn't some nebulous "darkness" within the Idoneth, it's concrete, they have crippled souls, almost all of their children died in infancy (only 1 in 100 survives - how much suffering does this cause?), they were in constant pain in Hysh and many of them went mad. If you look at what the Idoneth have to do to survive you could make the case that wiping them out would have caused less pain overall. At least thinking about that - especially if you just made a creation out of souls which came from inside Slaanesh - are confronted with such a result, it's not weird to consider the possible repercussions -  to at least think about it might be better to end this. It isn't totally out of bounds, or hypocritical to me at least. 

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5 hours ago, TheTaintedSpud said:

The book says it wasn't easy, but never shows how not easy it was. 

It objectively does.

5 hours ago, TheTaintedSpud said:

Morathi worked because I got invested in her.Yes, she was doing terrible things, but they gave us a solid, relatable grounding. Maybe its just me, but I can't relate to Teclis. I'll admit, part of my view on him is tainted thanks to the fact he considered wiping out the Cythai, his own creation, under some nebulous "darkness" in their beings. Sorry, but in my view once you consider mass murder you pretty much loose all moral high ground. Teclis comes off to me as less righteous, and more a self-righteous hypocrite. 

So, Morathi has higher moral ground than Teclis? Morathi?

Edited by NinthMusketeer
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Ok, so having given it a first read-through, I can say that it's not as bad as people make it to be, but also that I'm clearly not the target audience of this type of storytelling. 

Which, to be fair, is in line with most of GW's storytelling. 

As for "Nagash gets nothing done" (and I too get that vibe - at least partially, again, not a fan of the way the stories are told), keep in mind that we're talking about an ongoing narrative (with a strong sense of featuring whoever needs to be on top right now). If in two story arcs Nagash has his grand return and reveals that Teils actually did exactly what he, Nagash needed him to do and starts corrupting the rune constellation thingy (+ bonus course of death for good ol' Teclis), it would totally be in line with what was done here & and the way GWW tends to tell stories. .  

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Repost my thoughts  form a discord

I will also say this, BR Teclis is a perfect example of a why you should read a book yourself before you judge it. People were going on for like a week complaining that The Lumineth and teclis just stumped the forces of death. That is not what happened, they struggled a lot in this book and they barely succeeded. And in the end teclis has some weird curse on him now.

What I'm most excited about from the ramifications of BR Teclis, is that we might see the underworld return to how they once were before the coming of nagash.  I hope that the underworld deities return.

Another thing I will say, Is BR Teclis has further strengthened my belief that the bonereapers are absolutely overpowered. They just counter everything the lumineth throw at them. They are damn near invulnerable, sun-metal weapons did nothing, shining company did nothing, laser beams did nothing, I don't know why the archers even showed up, they were completely meaningless and useless. The only elf unit that had any success was cow elves and that's stretching it in my opinion. Their hammers were useless, only the diamond pics did something and even with their stoneskin they were still getting cut down. I'm reading this like, this is ridiculous, the bonereapers just hard counter everything.

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40 minutes ago, xking said:

I'm reading this like, this is ridiculous, the bonereapers just hard counter everything.

It's got to be hard being so badass and so goofy looking at the same time. 

😉😅

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1 hour ago, Vasshpit said:

It's got to be hard being so badass and so goofy looking at the same time. 

😉😅

It was so ridiculous,  The Lumineth be like 

 

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Be it humorous sarcasm or horridly biased misinterpretation, I was very entertained in reading the line "bonereapers just hard counter everything" because the Slaanesh battletome just hit, of course the bonereapers are hard.

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Teclis is interesting as a character, however he is not one that I particularly like. 

For supposedly the most enlightened being in the Realms he certainly isn't prepared to listen or entertain anyone else's thoughts or views (other than his brother perhaps).  He feels like that annoying person who is the smartest person in a room and needs everyone else to know it, while dismissing them because of his intelligence.

Even in his interactions with Allarielle he is the same, a bit condescending and defensive.  He doesn't bother to try and marshal allies to confront Nagash just goes about it.

Regarding the Idoneth, the impression I got was that Teclis wanted to wipe them out because they were flawed and reminded him of his failure.  It wasn't, in my view some kind of altruistic 'spare them pain' type of decision.

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3 hours ago, Marius au said:

Teclis is interesting as a character, however he is not one that I particularly like. 

For supposedly the most enlightened being in the Realms he certainly isn't prepared to listen or entertain anyone else's thoughts or views (other than his brother perhaps).  He feels like that annoying person who is the smartest person in a room and needs everyone else to know it, while dismissing them because of his intelligence.

Even in his interactions with Allarielle he is the same, a bit condescending and defensive.  He doesn't bother to try and marshal allies to confront Nagash just goes about it.

Paradoxically that insufferability is what makes Teclis interesting to me. If he was just perfectly wise and sagacious and enlightened and always acted correctly, he'd be dull Mary Sue OP insert-perjorative-here. As is though, he's arrogant, condescending and acts unilaterally, just as you say. The people of Shyish are going to be inspired whether they like it or not. The Idoneth were going to be destroyed purely by his decision, regardless of the motive being 'good' or bad. Sigmar's sometimes still the barbarian to him, Alarielle's too hesitant and Just Doesn't Understand The Way He Does, even when she helps him.

The caveat to all that his that he's earnest, which gives those characteristics a certain shading. This is the same outward-looking Teclis who pioneered teaching humans magic in the first place, who saw their value as more than animals, who consistently rose above traditional elven insularity and self-interest to seek the preservation of the whole world. He saw a parallel between the frail, sickly humans and how he was viewed by his fellows, and extended true sympathy because of that. In the Mortal Realms, that sympathy and outward-looking nature was what helped him commune with Celennar in the first place. He genuinely did see the state of Shyish under Nagash as an affront and resented Nagash's megalomaniacal ambitions over all people.

But then that all has to be set in context with his absolutely surety in his own correctness, the 'smartest person in the room' syndrome, which fairly directly led to the apocalypse of the World That Was. His inability to see his own hubris was of a kind with Nagash's, even if not on the same scale, and led to massive Lumineth casualties and war escalation for what was meant to be a symbolic goal. One take on the question of the Idoneth is that it wasn't covering up a mistake - Teclis seems to get how badly he messed up in the End Times - but that his sympathy to a wounded, poorly, frail elven people was such that he took it upon himself to spare them the pain he knew... without actually asking how they might feel or questioning his own right to make such a monstrous decision. This doesn't make him Actually Good, deep down, but it's characteristic of someone I feel is fundamentally uncynical, with often horrific results.

His arrogance and hubris are interesting in that they're significantly different and, I think, more nuanced and personal than traditional fantasy elven characteristics. In conclusion, Teclis is a land of contrasts. 

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Just finished reading BR:T. I might have missed this but what was Nagash's sacrifice of Mount Avalenor intended to achieve? And when did Celennar point this out?

'Here was the great sacrifice Nagash needed to power his theft: not a mortal soul but that of a living mountain. Its end would be enough; that much Hysh itself knew, and had spoken through the wisdom of Celennar.'

 

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17 hours ago, Marius au said:

Teclis is interesting as a character, however he is not one that I particularly like. 

For supposedly the most enlightened being in the Realms he certainly isn't prepared to listen or entertain anyone else's thoughts or views (other than his brother perhaps).  He feels like that annoying person who is the smartest person in a room and needs everyone else to know it, while dismissing them because of his intelligence.

Even in his interactions with Allarielle he is the same, a bit condescending and defensive.  He doesn't bother to try and marshal allies to confront Nagash just goes about it.

Regarding the Idoneth, the impression I got was that Teclis wanted to wipe them out because they were flawed and reminded him of his failure.  It wasn't, in my view some kind of altruistic 'spare them pain' type of decision.

I don’t think that’s the main motivation. He didn’t try to wipe out the Lumineth although they aren’t perfect either. He himself was a cripple for a long time, and considered deficient by his peers.

Anger at his failure - probably played a role too. But I don’t think it was the only or even main motivation. Because we also know he tried to heal the Idoneth first, only after nothing worked, he contemplated wiping them out. 

The failure which Teclis feels the most is that it’s partly his fault that the elves were eaten by Slaanesh and have to endure endless torment. He was a shell until the elf gods found out that they could help the elven souls. They use the word “grief” when he sees that the offspring of the Idoneth are dying and they are in constant pain  etc. That’s in the Lumineth Battletome.

If they wanted to say that it was mostly motivated by pride/shame I think they’d used another word there. 

In the Idoneth Battletome, it says straight away that Teclis feared that the Idoneth  were corrupted and he tried to look into their souls to find out the truth, but couldn’t get see past a shadow and his gaze caused them pain, some were driven mad - so they tried to hide. 

There is nothing in there about his pride being the motivation. You can still assume it is part of the equation of course, but it’s not shown as the main factor in the source books. 

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Just finished up guys and I am on the fence of....loving it!! Shocking right!? That was an awesome ride and I cannot wait to read Belakor!! 

In regards to Tyrion facing off a greater threat is that the Slaneesh  Newborn? Belakor himself? Malerion? I cannot wait to find out I love the forward momentum of the narrative. 

The Soul Wars are over the time of the Great WAAAGH has come!!

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On 4/9/2021 at 5:59 AM, sandlemad said:

Paradoxically that insufferability is what makes Teclis interesting to me. If he was just perfectly wise and sagacious and enlightened and always acted correctly, he'd be dull Mary Sue OP insert-perjorative-here. As is though, he's arrogant, condescending and acts unilaterally, just as you say. The people of Shyish are going to be inspired whether they like it or not. The Idoneth were going to be destroyed purely by his decision, regardless of the motive being 'good' or bad. Sigmar's sometimes still the barbarian to him, Alarielle's too hesitant and Just Doesn't Understand The Way He Does, even when she helps him.

The caveat to all that his that he's earnest, which gives those characteristics a certain shading. This is the same outward-looking Teclis who pioneered teaching humans magic in the first place, who saw their value as more than animals, who consistently rose above traditional elven insularity and self-interest to seek the preservation of the whole world. He saw a parallel between the frail, sickly humans and how he was viewed by his fellows, and extended true sympathy because of that. In the Mortal Realms, that sympathy and outward-looking nature was what helped him commune with Celennar in the first place. He genuinely did see the state of Shyish under Nagash as an affront and resented Nagash's megalomaniacal ambitions over all people.

But then that all has to be set in context with his absolutely surety in his own correctness, the 'smartest person in the room' syndrome, which fairly directly led to the apocalypse of the World That Was. His inability to see his own hubris was of a kind with Nagash's, even if not on the same scale, and led to massive Lumineth casualties and war escalation for what was meant to be a symbolic goal. One take on the question of the Idoneth is that it wasn't covering up a mistake - Teclis seems to get how badly he messed up in the End Times - but that his sympathy to a wounded, poorly, frail elven people was such that he took it upon himself to spare them the pain he knew... without actually asking how they might feel or questioning his own right to make such a monstrous decision. This doesn't make him Actually Good, deep down, but it's characteristic of someone I feel is fundamentally uncynical, with often horrific results.

His arrogance and hubris are interesting in that they're significantly different and, I think, more nuanced and personal than traditional fantasy elven characteristics. In conclusion, Teclis is a land of contrasts. 

The issue is, a lot of the time, I don't feel like teclis' insufferability is actually a flaw to the people writing him much less he is their avatar to get all 'rationalist' community on others. Teclis is here to own you with facts and logic cause he is such a masterful logic man. And that's why he gets the hot elf twins (yes this used to be a thing). 

 

 

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Point taken about it varying depending on the writer (though I've never seen any connection to the 'rationalist' community and if they're the folks I think they are I would actively dismiss them). That's pretty much inevitable with any fictional IP featuring multiple authors and I was really talking about a theoretical idea of a 'core Teclis' that doesn't exactly exist. I do think that the ideas there are ones used by the authors of the End Times and BR Teclis though and if they constitute the current or dominant idea for 'a Teclis', then cool.

That twins thing really was cringeworthy though.

Edited by sandlemad
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On 4/9/2021 at 7:02 PM, Much-Maligned said:

Just finished reading BR:T. I might have missed this but what was Nagash's sacrifice of Mount Avalenor intended to achieve? And when did Celennar point this out?

'Here was the great sacrifice Nagash needed to power his theft: not a mortal soul but that of a living mountain. Its end would be enough; that much Hysh itself knew, and had spoken through the wisdom of Celennar.'

 

I think his plan was to use the sacrifice of a living mountain (in typical necromantic fashion) in order to bring the shyish nadir into hysh. 

The idea of "sacrificing a living mountain" is very interesting when you consider what is happening with the Beastgrave right now.

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SO, a couple of things I noticed finally reading BR: Teclis.

1: Alarielle warns Teclis that "there is a traitor within your ranks". Is this referring to Morathi's betrayal in the first book, or is someone else going to be a betrayer?

2.: Tyrion is off fighting someone who is claimed to be more dangerous than Nagash. Additionally, they clarify that before Tyrion disappeared, he was last seen heading towards the pit of Cathartia, which is the big dark spot in Hysh/realm gate to Ulgu. Who would he be fighting in Ulgu that is stronger than Nagash? 

Edited by Athrawes
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1 hour ago, Athrawes said:

SO, a couple of things I noticed finally reading BR: Teclis.

1: Alarielle warns Teclis that "there is a traitor within your ranks". Is this referring to Morathi's betrayal in the first book, or is someone else going to be a betrayer?

2.: Tyrion is off fighting someone who is claimed to be more dangerous than Nagash. Additionally, they clarify that before Tyrion disappeared, he was last seen heading towards the pit of Cathartia, which is the big dark spot in Hysh/realm gate to Ulgu. Who would he be fighting in Ulgu that is stronger than Nagash? 

Could the answer to both be the same...? Mally’s hour!

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1 hour ago, Athrawes said:

1: Alarielle warns Teclis that "there is a traitor within your ranks". Is this referring to Morathi's betrayal in the first book, or is someone else going to be a betrayer?

If it was Morathi (or Malerion), Allarielle would have said traitor in our ranks, since She is also part of the Pantheon.  I would say, therefore the traitor is either a Lumineth Realm-Lord or an Aelemental. So far I haven't come across any indications as to who it is in BR: Teclis, but currently reading "The End of Enlightenment" and there may be something in there.

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The second part (Pit of Cathartia) is also interesting. As Tyrion can't exist in Ulgu, maybe he can just in the place where the light from Hysh shines into Ulgu, but that would be of limited help I guess. 

The only one he could be fighting in Ulgu that is stronger than Nagash would be the newborn part of Slaanesh - but that's also a bit of a stretch, if it doesn't have the full strength of Slaanesh. 

The traitor part is very intriguing. I don't think there is any hint anywhere who this could be in BR Teclis (also not so far in End of Enlightenment). 

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On 4/12/2021 at 4:27 AM, sandlemad said:

Point taken about it varying depending on the writer (though I've never seen any connection to the 'rationalist' community and if they're the folks I think they are I would actively dismiss them). That's pretty much inevitable with any fictional IP featuring multiple authors and I was really talking about a theoretical idea of a 'core Teclis' that doesn't exactly exist. I do think that the ideas there are ones used by the authors of the End Times and BR Teclis though and if they constitute the current or dominant idea for 'a Teclis', then cool.

That twins thing really was cringeworthy though.

 

Teclis' arrogance is usually written as justified more often then not, though they did drop the, uh, extra nerd wish fulfilment stuff eventually. XD I hope that they can pierce this, but, again, GW writers like elves a lot. 

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On the traitor bit... Think it’s Morathi? Alarielle wasn’t part of the binding of Slaanesh, so it makes sense that she could be the traitor in “your” midst, and thus leave herself out of it?

I honestly like the idea of the good side having a complete victory for once (even if it is pyrrhic in it’s own way) and not have to deal with another “just as planned” justification. Feels good to have the closest thing to a victory since the End times!

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