Broken Realms: Teclis - SPOILER Discussion + Lore Summary

[Jefferson Skarsnik]

Eltharion put Arkhan over clean as a sheet in the middle of the ring at End Times 2015. I guarantee Arkhan has enough respect for this business and the boys in the back that he was damn sure gonna return the favours if Eltharion could still go
 

Now in terms of a rubber match you almost definitely gotta blow this thing off with some kind of a gimmick, now whether that's a steel cage or something more ah hang on I've posted this on the wrong website sorry

 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

Arkhan, don't fall off the edge of Hysh! The perimeter inimical is filled with bone hurting juice!

Oof ouch owie my bones!

[Sception]

I think some folks aren't really giving GW/Nagash the credit they're due for what they've done up to this point.  From Malign Portents up until Broken Realms, 2nd edition really has been the Age of Nagash, with the undead moving from victory to victory in a relatively unbroken string.  Yes, they were always qualified victories, but that's only because an outright victory would mean the deletion of the setting and the end of the game.

Yes the skaven threw off the great ritual... but only enough that Nagash didn't directly and instantly consume all the magic of Shyish, becoming more powerful than all the other gods put together and personally wiping away all life in the realms.  Even so, he still successfully inverted the magic of Shyish, fundamentally changing what the mortal realms look like, drew a near inexhaustible supply of power to himself, unleashed a necroquake that changed how magic in the entire game works and raised legions of nighthaunts everywhere that most of the other factions spent most of an entire edition fighting against for their survival.  The necroquake also revealed Katakros's location, and while the undead didn't wipe out the city they did free his spirit, so again a victory, if a qualified one.  And with Katakros, Nagash unleashed the Ossiarchs who went on to establish a realms-spanning empire, claiming territory in most of the mortal realms, including claiming and holding territory in the 8 points, the seat of archaon's power, something no other faction in AoS has done to this point.  Yes, archaon returned in time to repell an exploritory assault on the Varanspire, so the undead didn't literally wipe the primary chaos faction from the game, but again expecting them to would be silly, and Wrath of the Everchosen is still the story of an unprecedented Ossiarch victory over the forces of chaos.

Victories in wargame narrative /should/ be qualified.  One faction shouldn't get to wipe out another, because real players play that other faction, have spent money collecting them and time painting them and emotional energy investing in them.  Judged by any reasonable measure, Nagash has had a spectacular run driving the narrative of 2nd edition, and it is absolutely time for him to take a back seat for a while.

Especially since a key narrative theme of 3rd edition seems to be the breakup of the old grand alliances due to internal conflict.  We've already seen the elven gods move away from sigmar, and seen Morathi betray them both.  With BR:Be'Lakor, we're set to see the balance of GA:Chaos broken up the same way, since the unchallenged tyranny of Archaon has been the only thing holding the otherwise fractious forces of the dark gods together.  With the various Mortarchs all pursuing their own schemes, not to mention the fundamental conflict between the lifeless future promised by the Ossiarchs and the vampires and ghoul kings who require a steady supply of the living to feed upon in order to sustain their immortal unlives, there's a lot of juicy narrative potential for internal death conflicts.  But none of that can happen as long as Nagash is ascendant, able to impose his will on his mortarchs, and through them on the rest of the undead.

So yeah, I think Nagash actually had a respectable run in 2nd edition, and yeah, I'm content with him being taken at least temporarily out of the picture in order to allow the writers to tell a new story in 3rd edition.

 

But the way it happens, that is supper disappointing.  Such an anticlimactic end for the Soul Wars.  Nagash dominated 2nd edition, yeah, but it never felt like shameless Nagash fan pandering.  It never felt like the undead were being made to seem cool /at the expense/ of the other factions.  Nagash's victories were always hard fought and qualified in a way that fans of the other faction could still feel like their dudes were cool in managing merely to survive.  None of that is the case here.  From the summaries I've seen, the Lumineth, on their own, with only one of their twin deities, effortlessly crush the entirety of what was Grand Alliance Death while losing basically nothing in the process, and in the end with a snap of his fingers Teclis undoes something that took Nagash centuries of work and the entirety of Shyish's relamstone to do with little more than a snap of his fingers.

Even with the narrative potential that comes with Nagash temporarily out of the picture, even with the fantastic new Soulblight Gravelords release coming, a narrative loss that completely one sided kind of sucks a lot of my enthusiasm out of the game.  And that amount of cheap fan pandering for a single faction, on a level death never saw, on a level not even the stormcast ever saw, does not promise anything good for the writing going forward.

I came to BR:Teclis prepared to see Nagash lose and lose big.  Even excited to see how Teclis would pull it off - to read about how long he had prepared, hear how many other deities he had roped into helping with the project, to see how high a price he would pay for that victory.  From the summaries so far, yeah... yeah even going in expecting a loss GW still found a way to leave me colossally disappointed.

Edited March 29, 2021 by Sception

[shinros]

@Sception Agreed, it seems like to me they just wanted to write cool moments for the Lumineth over actually putting together a compelling narrative. GW tends to do this a lot in other game settings and Morathi made me hopeful that they broke out of that type of writing.

A trap they fell into is that in their head all of this sounded cool, but what they forgot is that if they wanted to write a compelling hero story they must struggle against the villian.

Someone made a good comparison with LOTR we all know the good guys are going to win, but what made the story great was the trials the characters faced on their trip to mordor.

Overall Broken Realms teclis, just sounds like a boring supplement to read. At least in my opinion.

[Ganigumo]

@shinros GW tends to do a lot of top-down design (start with the concept first, then writes the narrative/rules around it), Vince from WH weekly was talking about design on his latest show, and the concept for elves in warhammer (high elves especially) is that they're better than you. It's why they've always been strong and had powerful complex rules despite many editions and hands writing the books. So having the new high elves effortlessly smash through the forces of death is fitting for their narrative, and from the overarching narrative we were expecting Nagash to take an L here anyways.

So GW is writing Lumineth properly in accordance with their design/concept, but the problem is that the GW high elf concept is flawed. I hopped into fantasy late, but from my recollection this is basically what the old high elf lore was like as well.

 

[Cronotekk]

This all really comes from the fact that Phil "Elf Lover" Kelly is in charge now, so expect High- sorry- Lumineth Realmlords to be unstoppable Mary Sues for the next couple years.

[Gecktron]

I see a lot of talking about how the victory was "unearned" and pandering to the Lumineth. 

First, the Lumineth campaign in Shyish was repealed, every loss suffered by the Ossiarchs easily replaced and then the lands of the Lumineth get invaded themselfes. Multiple cities razed to the ground as Ossiarchs and Flesh-Eater rampage through Ymetrica. 

In the end, Teclis gets gravely wounded and only survives trough the intervention of another god, Alarielle. 

Teclis ritual also bound Nagashs body to Mount Avalenor, the sacred peak of Ymetrica (this defilement will have consequences for the surrounding lands). 

In the end, Nagash and Arkhan will come back, this is not the first time for either of them. While every Lumineth that dies would stay dead (except Eltharion, but having him die to Arkhan twice would be boring).

[Nagash42]

I haven't read it all but apparently Nagash was destroying the mountain in hysh slowly killing the big mountain spirit cow. No one could stop him till teclis got there. Nagash even stabbed teclis during their fight and marked him with some kind of death magic which we don't know the effects of yet.  

[MitGas]

1 hour ago, Cronotekk said:

This all really comes from the fact that Phil "Elf Lover" Kelly is in charge now, so expect High- sorry- Lumineth Realmlords to be unstoppable Mary Sues for the next couple years.

Ahhh, and just when I thought I couldn't like the guy's work any less after his Chaos Codex....

Edit: got less problems with his love for Aelves though than his blatant dislike for Chaos...

Edited March 29, 2021 by MitGas

[SeanMaguire1991]

5 hours ago, Jefferson Skarsnik said:

Eltharion put Arkhan over clean as a sheet in the middle of the ring at End Times 2015. I guarantee Arkhan has enough respect for this business and the boys in the back that he was damn sure gonna return the favours if Eltharion could still go
 

Now in terms of a rubber match you almost definitely gotta blow this thing off with some kind of a gimmick, now whether that's a steel cage or something more ah hang on I've posted this on the wrong website sorry

 

Eltharion vs Arkhan 3 should be Hell in the Cell main event at Wrestlerealm. 

I feel like the Hell in the Cell match hasn't been special since the Age of Chaos.

Edited March 29, 2021 by SeanMaguire1991

[Mcthew]

3 hours ago, Sception said:

I think some folks aren't really giving GW/Nagash the credit they're due for what they've done up to this point.  From Malign Portents up until Broken Realms, 2nd edition really has been the Age of Nagash, with the undead moving from victory to victory in a relatively unbroken string.  Yes, they were always qualified victories, but that's only because an outright victory would mean the deletion of the setting and the end of the game.

Yes the skaven threw off the great ritual... but only enough that Nagash didn't directly and instantly consume all the magic of Shyish, becoming more powerful than all the other gods put together and personally wiping away all life in the realms.  Even so, he still successfully inverted the magic of Shyish, fundamentally changing what the mortal realms look like, drew a near inexhaustible supply of power to himself, unleashed a necroquake that changed how magic in the entire game works and raised legions of nighthaunts everywhere that most of the other factions spent most of an entire edition fighting against for their survival.  The necroquake also revealed Katakros's location, and while the undead didn't wipe out the city they did free his spirit, so again a victory, if a qualified one.  And with Katakros, Nagash unleashed the Ossiarchs who went on to establish a realms-spanning empire, claiming territory in most of the mortal realms, including claiming and holding territory in the 8 points, the seat of archaon's power, something no other faction in AoS has done to this point.  Yes, archaon returned in time to repell an exploritory assault on the Varanspire, so the undead didn't literally wipe the primary chaos faction from the game, but again expecting them to would be silly, and Wrath of the Everchosen is still the story of an unprecedented Ossiarch victory over the forces of chaos.

Victories in wargame narrative /should/ be qualified.  One faction shouldn't get to wipe out another, because real players play that other faction, have spent money collecting them and time painting them and emotional energy investing in them.  Judged by any reasonable measure, Nagash has had a spectacular run driving the narrative of 2nd edition, and it is absolutely time for him to take a back seat for a while.

Especially since a key narrative theme of 3rd edition seems to be the breakup of the old grand alliances due to internal conflict.  We've already seen the elven gods move away from sigmar, and seen Morathi betray them both.  With BR:Be'Lakor, we're set to see the balance of GA:Chaos broken up the same way, since the unchallenged tyranny of Archaon has been the only thing holding the otherwise fractious forces of the dark gods together.  With the various Mortarchs all pursuing their own schemes, not to mention the fundamental conflict between the lifeless future promised by the Ossiarchs and the vampires and ghoul kings who require a steady supply of the living to feed upon in order to sustain their immortal unlives, there's a lot of juicy narrative potential for internal death conflicts.  But none of that can happen as long as Nagash is ascendant, able to impose his will on his mortarchs, and through them on the rest of the undead.

So yeah, I think Nagash actually had a respectable run in 2nd edition, and yeah, I'm content with him being taken at least temporarily out of the picture in order to allow the writers to tell a new story in 3rd edition.

 

But the way it happens, that is supper disappointing.  Such an anticlimactic end for the Soul Wars.  Nagash dominated 2nd edition, yeah, but it never felt like shameless Nagash fan pandering.  It never felt like the undead were being made to seem cool /at the expense/ of the other factions.  Nagash's victories were always hard fought and qualified in a way that fans of the other faction could still feel like their dudes were cool in managing merely to survive.  None of that is the case here.  From the summaries I've seen, the Lumineth, on their own, with only one of their twin deities, effortlessly crush the entirety of what was Grand Alliance Death while losing basically nothing in the process, and in the end with a snap of his fingers Teclis undoes something that took Nagash centuries of work and the entirety of Shyish's relamstone to do with little more than a snap of his fingers.

Even with the narrative potential that comes with Nagash temporarily out of the picture, even with the fantastic new Soulblight Gravelords release coming, a narrative loss that completely one sided kind of sucks a lot of my enthusiasm out of the game.  And that amount of cheap fan pandering for a single faction, on a level death never saw, on a level not even the stormcast ever saw, does not promise anything good for the writing going forward.

I came to BR:Teclis prepared to see Nagash lose and lose big.  Even excited to see how Teclis would pull it off - to read about how long he had prepared, hear how many other deities he had roped into helping with the project, to see how high a price he would pay for that victory.  From the summaries so far, yeah... yeah even going in expecting a loss GW still found a way to leave me colossally disappointed.

Was going to 'like' this post, because it really is a good post.

Except that again this is based on someone else's summary of the narrative. If I based my opinion of a story on someone else's summary of a book or film, I'd not have read or watched half of what I have (seriously, would've avoided all Star Wars movies or Star Trek, and forget most fantasy films!)

We need to be patient, and read the book first, rather than assume the quality of it. (We all know what 'assume' does.)

But... I do like your post so I'm  gonna like it for constructing a good argument about Nagash being centre stage for a whole edition 😉 and that the plot doesn't diminish a good story for Death!

[SeanMaguire1991]

2 hours ago, Cronotekk said:

This all really comes from the fact that Phil "Elf Lover" Kelly is in charge now, so expect High- sorry- Lumineth Realmlords to be unstoppable Mary Sues for the next couple years.

I'm not familiar with Phil Kelly's writing, could you elaborate on his reputation? 

[HorticulusTGA]

8 minutes ago, SeanMaguire1991 said:

I'm not familiar with Phil Kelly's writing, could you elaborate on his reputation? 

People complains about LRL because P.K. (the big boss of AOS lore in the studio) really likes Elves and Aelves. 

But given the fact P.K. also was instrumental in Malign Portents and the Soul Wars (and literally called AOS 2nd ed. "the Age of Nagash" in the last White Dwarf), it's just baseless fear mongering .   

[Harioch]

55 minutes ago, Mcthew said:

Was going to 'like' this post, because it really is a good post.

Except that again this is based on someone else's summary of the narrative. If I based my opinion of a story on someone else's summary of a book or film, I'd not have read or watched half of what I have (seriously, would've avoided all Star Wars movies or Star Trek, and forget most fantasy films!)

We need to be patient, and read the book first, rather than assume the quality of it. (We all know what 'assume' does.)

But... I do like your post so I'm  gonna like it for constructing a good argument about Nagash being centre stage for a whole edition 😉 and that the plot doesn't diminish a good story for Death!

Honestly, I still don't know if I should buy this book based on the summary I've read.

Maybe the book is better than what reviews highlight and deserve to be brought, at least for a lore addict like me,  but... it's a GW book...meaning expensive, a lot of printing errors and bad translations. It's better now than what it used to be, but sometimes there is some "hiccups" even in recent publications. BR:Morathi was a pain to read because of those issues. And in the end, it's a gamble because it can end up being disapointing anyway 😄.

I think I'll take it, like I took Wrath of the Everchosen, reluctantly...I really hope the" Lumineth-are-so-over-the-top" trope is just in people minds. Only Space marines deal with a tremendous level of fanfic writing ...and it's really a shame for 40k lore. No hate for Lumineth tho, I would have said the same if it were Orruks instead (...or not, because Orruks are cool 😆).

Edited March 29, 2021 by Harioch

[MitGas]

16 minutes ago, SeanMaguire1991 said:

I'm not familiar with Phil Kelly's writing, could you elaborate on his reputation? 

He gave Chaos the worst codex possible cause he doesn't like the faction and couldn't be bothered. Not the sign of a professional writer. plus the basic lore he put out was undercooked to say the least.

[Eldarain]

Him leaving 40k for AoS and having Eldar drop from their ascendant perch for the first time in over a decade (and only second time in the history of the game) while the new High Elves get this treatment is at least somewhat suspicious...

[LuminethMage]

6 hours ago, Harioch said:

Honestly, I still don't know if I should buy this book based on the summary I've read.

Maybe the book is better than what reviews highlight and deserve to be brought, at least for a lore addict like me,  but... it's a GW book...meaning expensive, a lot of printing errors and bad translations. It's better now than what it used to be, but sometimes there is some "hiccups" even in recent publications. BR:Morathi was a pain to read because of those issues. And in the end, it's a gamble because it can end up being disapointing anyway 😄.

I think I'll take it, like I took Wrath of the Everchosen, reluctantly...I really hope the" Lumineth-are-so-over-the-top" trope is just in people minds. Only Space marines deal with a tremendous level of fanfic writing ...and it's really a shame for 40k lore. No hate for Lumineth tho, I would have said the same if it were Orruks instead (...or not, because Orruks are cool 😆).

You can have a look at the White Dwarf from February, even a WarCom article about that issue has a summary about the battles between OBR and LRL, except for the last part where Nagash attacks Ymetrica himself. There are no details about anything specific, but Nagash wasn't really faced by what the LRL did in Shyish. It even says he was happy because they didn't achieve very much, and he knew their capabilities now. The LRL destroyed a lot of stuff, but that was immediately replenished by the OBR and Nagash went on the offense right away - Arkhan destroyed cities in Ymetrica in return and the LRL had to start to burn their own dead to somehow stop the advance. This part will likely sound pretty desperate for the Lumineth. I've also not read the full story obviously, but it doesn't sound like it's only LRL winning all the time.

From the summary, it seems to me it's very much like BR Morathi, Morathi/Teclis basically achieving what they want, with a narrative caveat/Damocles sword hanging over them which GW could use or not at some point in the future. And both causing unwanted side effects (Slaanesh/freed Death factions). I can't really see a qualitative difference to BR Morathi from what I've heard so far. 

[Mcthew]

8 hours ago, MitGas said:

He gave Chaos the worst codex possible cause he doesn't like the faction and couldn't be bothered. Not the sign of a professional writer. plus the basic lore he put out was undercooked to say the least.

Since AoS 2.0 I have to agree that aside from Slaanesh, the studio hasn't shown Chaos much love. An awful battletome for Beasts of Chaos, a messy tome for Tzeentch, a substandard tome for Khorne, and no new tome for Nurgle. Slaves to Darkness disappointed many too. Skaven had the best tome but only 1 new model in the last 8 years.

But... We've also seen massive improvements in those anti-pointy-ears boys, the Kharadron Overlords who can shoot LRL off the table, so some things are sneaking through. Let's see what they do with the Belakor BR book to see if this anti-Kelly feeling is justified...

Edited March 30, 2021 by Mcthew

[edmc78]

On 3/28/2021 at 5:06 PM, Rachmani said:

Maybe the sacrifice will become clear over time. Teclis seems to be marked by death. But I have to read that myself.

On a funnier note, Nagash invading Teclis turf feels like that overconfident mid player in DotA (or League) that overextends and gets killed under tower.

Best way to reconcile this would be to have Nagash inside Teclis’s head from now on being a git all the time. 

[The Black Marshal]

Is there any news on lore and color schemes from the last two Tyrionic nations? Alumnia is red and white, Helon is green and white, so that just leaves Aurathrai and Oultrai without colors. 

[MitGas]

2 hours ago, Mcthew said:

Since AoS 2.0 I have to agree that aside from Slaanesh, the studio hasn't shown Chaos much love. An awful battletome for Beasts of Chaos, a messy tome for Tzeentch, a substandard tome for Khorne, and no new tome for Nurgle. Slaves to Darkness disappointed many too. Skaven had the best tome but only 1 new model in the last 8 years.

But... We've also seen massive improvements in those anti-pointy-ears boys, the Kharadron Overlords who can shoot LRL off the table, so some things are sneaking through. Let's see what they do with the Belakor BR book to see if this anti-Kelly feeling is justified...

Well, can't really complain with AoS in regards to overall Chaos in any way - yes, the battletomes lack balanced rules but that's a GW problem since the day I've started). So many other armies need basics, it's ok Chaos (outside of Skaven and BoC, both could use lots of love) got pushed into second row after having been in the spotlight - what's not ok is the ****** Kelly did back in 40k with Chaos. If that was my company, that codex would've been reworked by someone more capable. Also it feels like we got an overrepresentation of Aelves thanks to him.  But okay, as long as others get shown love now in equal measures, that's great. Obviously they can't do everything at once.

To be fair, I do have to say that this feeling of overrepresentation of Aelves (and how long those Mega-Gargants were teased) is probably down to Corona, I guess the release pattern would've been quicker else. Personally all I'm really looking forward to are Tzeentch Mortals but I understand that they're really, really ridiculously unimportant in the grand scheme of things as so much other stuff (Skaven! BoC! ALL the first armies that got too few kits (including Idoneth and Sylvaneth) need LOTS of love and at least small updates to their ranges first.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

As a small aside, I like the difference in the artefact lists of the Lumineth Realm Lords and Settler's Gain, the Hyshian 1 in 4 Lumineth CoS city.

Where the Lumineth get the Silver Wand and Blade of Leaping Gold, the humans of Settler's Gain need to make do with the Silver-Plated Wand and Blade of Leaping Bronze. I think this is a cute way to show the relationship between the Lumineth and humans in that city.

The command trait Raging Outburst from Settler's Gain is pretty great, too, where your general gets +1 to hit and wound (and -1 to saves) because he flies into a rage from the constant supervision of the Lumineth.

[Mcthew]

59 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

As a small aside, I like the difference in the artefact lists of the Lumineth Realm Lords and Settler's Gain, the Hyshian 1 in 4 Lumineth CoS city.

Where the Lumineth get the Silver Wand and Blade of Leaping Gold, the humans of Settler's Gain need to make do with the Silver-Plated Wand and Blade of Leaping Bronze. I think this is a cute way to show the relationship between the Lumineth and humans in that city.

The command trait Raging Outburst from Settler's Gain is pretty great, too, where your general gets +1 to hit and wound (and -1 to saves) because he flies into a rage from the constant supervision of the Lumineth.

I love that command trait. Probably due to being shortchanged by the LRL on the artefacts too.

Definitely will put this on a Warden King. Kinda feels fitting...

Edited March 30, 2021 by Mcthew

[HorticulusTGA]

6 hours ago, Mcthew said:

Skaven had the best tome but only 1 new model in the last 8 years.

By "only 1 new model in 8 years", so since 2013, you mean the scenery, the endless spells, the Deathrunner from Silver Tower, the new warlord + chaff from Underworlds, the Skryre guy with rocket, the Island Of Blood re-editition, or the whole End Times : Thanquol range ?  

(Wrong thread :D)

Edited March 30, 2021 by HorticulusTGA

[Mcthew]

36 minutes ago, HorticulusTGA said:

By "only 1 new model in 8 years", so since 2013, you mean the scenery, the endless spells, the Deathrunner from Silver Tower, the new warlord + chaff from Underworlds, the Skryre guy with rocket, the Island Of Blood re-editition, or the whole End Times : Thanquol range ?  

(Wrong thread :D)

Yep. It was a collective 'one.' 😁