Broken Realms: Teclis - SPOILER Discussion + Lore Summary

[Causalis]

19 minutes ago, Talas said:

The Celestant-Prime was destroyed back in Forbidden Power and no one questioned if he could still be played or not. I mean, death is just a set back in the Realms.

Nagash has "died" a lot of times. At this point you can't really kill him. Same goes for probably every god. You can weaken them, seal them away etc. but they can't be killed. Also, death is Nagash's home-turf. In Nagash: The Undying King we learn that he actually transformes more and more from a physical entity to death itself - a force of nature if you will. 

As for Arkhan: IIRC the fluff for AoS is that Nagash created Neferata, Mannfred and Arkhan by collecting their soulstuff and searching his vast memories for them and then stitching those things together. So he'll probably just remake Arkhan. 

[Sorrow]

Because setting up Nagash and Grand Alliance Death as something incredibly powerful, only to never actually win anything, is a bit sad.

What have they truly accomplished? Gained a bit of land in Eightpoints. A most marvelous victory. 

Also, the idea behind Death is that they are semi-unified in Nagash, who dreams of creating Realms of eternal silence and stillness, a undead utopia.  Which all Chaos Gods fear and despise above all else.

[MitGas]

21 minutes ago, Sorrow said:

Because setting up Nagash and Grand Alliance Death as something incredibly powerful, only to never actually win anything, is a bit sad.

What have they truly accomplished? Gained a bit of land in Eightpoints. A most marvelous victory. 

Also, the idea behind Death is that they are semi-unified in Nagash, who dreams of creating Realms of eternal silence and stillness, a undead utopia.  Which all Chaos Gods fear and despise above all else.

If it helps, chaos usually doesn't do much more either... it's unfortunate though that so many things seem rather inconsequential. 

[Clan's Cynic]

58 minutes ago, SeanMaguire1991 said:

I don't Arkhan is gone very long. Isn't the latest bit of fluff about Arkhan leading an Ossiarch invasion of Hysh set after BR Teclis?

That takes place during the midpoint of BR: Teclis I believe, the White Dwarf article just fleshes the logistics train/FEC contribution out more.

[edmc78]

50 minutes ago, Causalis said:

Nagash has "died" a lot of times. At this point you can't really kill him. Same goes for probably every god. You can weaken them, seal them away etc. but they can't be killed. Also, death is Nagash's home-turf. In Nagash: The Undying King we learn that he actually transformes more and more from a physical entity to death itself - a force of nature if you will. 

As for Arkhan: IIRC the fluff for AoS is that Nagash created Neferata, Mannfred and Arkhan by collecting their soulstuff and searching his vast memories for them and then stitching those things together. So he'll probably just remake Arkhan. 

Just splashed out on an Arkhan kit as the centre of a new Bonereaper army.  Not sure what to do now.

Tempted to just convert the model as a random Bonereaper wizard and run as ‘counts as Arkhan’, bit will the scroll be squatted in AOS 3.0 do you think?

[SeanMaguire1991]

1 minute ago, edmc78 said:

will the scroll be squatted in AOS 3.0 do you think?

I doubt it, considering that would mean squatting Mannfred and Neferata too

Edited March 27, 2021 by SeanMaguire1991

[Sorrow]

52 minutes ago, MitGas said:

If it helps, chaos usually doesn't do much more either... it's unfortunate though that so many things seem rather inconsequential. 

What?

Chaos has successfully conquered all Realms during the Age of Chaos save Azyr and it took coming of Stormcast Eternals to push the tide of Chaos back.

https://ageofsigmar.lexicanum.com/wiki/Age_of_Chaos

Chaos actually succeeds in its goals.  Archaon actually gets things done. He destroyed the World-That-Was.

All praises be to The Ruinous Powers!

[Envyus]

1 hour ago, edmc78 said:

Just splashed out on an Arkhan kit as the centre of a new Bonereaper army.  Not sure what to do now.

Tempted to just convert the model as a random Bonereaper wizard and run as ‘counts as Arkhan’, bit will the scroll be squatted in AOS 3.0 do you think?

No more then Anvilgard has been squatted. Back in fantasy there were tons of characters that were playable despite being dead in the Lore.

[Envyus]

2 hours ago, Causalis said:

Nagash has "died" a lot of times. At this point you can't really kill him. Same goes for probably every god. You can weaken them, seal them away etc. but they can't be killed. Also, death is Nagash's home-turf. In Nagash: The Undying King we learn that he actually transformes more and more from a physical entity to death itself - a force of nature if you will. 

As for Arkhan: IIRC the fluff for AoS is that Nagash created Neferata, Mannfred and Arkhan by collecting their soulstuff and searching his vast memories for them and then stitching those things together. So he'll probably just remake Arkhan. 

Him and what body and most of his spirit.

[Gecktron]

2 hours ago, edmc78 said:

Just splashed out on an Arkhan kit as the centre of a new Bonereaper army.  Not sure what to do now.

Tempted to just convert the model as a random Bonereaper wizard and run as ‘counts as Arkhan’, bit will the scroll be squatted in AOS 3.0 do you think?

Him being part of a big and expensive multi-part kit together with two more important characters guarantees that he will not be squatted. Miniatures come first for GW, always. So as long as that kit exists, he is save. 

They also wouldnt have featured him so prominently in the Ossiarchs Tome if they had planned on getting rid of him. 

Like the others said, he will stay playable, but he might be out of action for a bit, from a narrative perspective. 
For a quick comparison, the Blood Angels have a playable character that has been "dead" for 6 editions now. 

[MitGas]

1 hour ago, Sorrow said:

What?

Chaos has successfully conquered all Realms during the Age of Chaos save Azyr and it took coming of Stormcast Eternals to push the tide of Chaos back.

https://ageofsigmar.lexicanum.com/wiki/Age_of_Chaos

Chaos actually succeeds in its goals.  Archaon actually gets things done. He destroyed the World-That-Was.

All praises be to The Ruinous Powers!

Yeah but only because they wanted to reinvent things... (which i why I said usually  ) Think of the 30 years before that where every Everchosen failed - always coming really close, only to lose in the end and not really much changing outside of a city or two being destroyed. Or 40k: before the fall of Cadia, Chaos did pretty much nothing for 10000 years (outside of the setting's start with the heresy that is - pretty similar starting point if you think about it).

What I wanna say: all the "bad" factions will ultimately fail so that nothing changes too much. It's just part of Warhammer (40k), although it got WAY better in recent years. So don't be disappointed and join our self help group! 😅

[Joseph Mackay]

14 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

Indeed. Yet the epic is only good if the victor had to pay deerly to win. In this case the Price is neglectable. LRL just smashed Death utterly without any meaningful downside. Cellenar should have died or Eltharion should have died along with Arkhan.

LRL basically just ran down their checklist and moved on.

The outcome of the story is okay, yet how we got there is the disappointment.

A more satisfying version of what happened:

A whole Region /continent of Hysh becomes uninhabitable due to the forces of death. A whole subfaction of the LRL is eradicated, Celennar dies (but will be reborn in time) and Eltharion is MIA. The LRL took a major hit but were able to banish death for now. And Teclis invokes a grant ritual, sacrificing hundreds of mages to end the Necroquake by invoking a new rune.

- This would be a story of fighting, worries, hardships yet in the end hope prevailed.

The current story was simple Mary-Sueing of the LRL imo.

‘Cellenar/Eltharion should have died’ you mean killing off models not even a year old? That was NEVER going to happen, and suggesting it should shows you have a bias against Lumineth, in my opinion (there’s a lot of hate towards them going around lately and it’s hard to tell)

im curious what this means for Nagash and Arkhans models though. Arkhan is more difficult because he’s a dual build kit with Nefarata and Manfred, neither of which are going anywhere anytime soon due to Soulblight Gravelords. That kit is only 2014-2015? I doubt they’ll replace that kit

[MetaphoricDragon]

I'm really curious where the ominous "Life Ascendant " warning goes.  Not sure if there are other Marvel cosmic fans out there, but my mind immediately went to the Cancerverse, and thats pretty terrifying. 

[JackStreicher]

1 hour ago, Joseph Mackay said:

Cellenar/Eltharion should have died’ you mean killing off models not even a year old? That was NEVER going to happen, and suggesting it should shows you have a bias against Lumineth, in my opinion (there’s a lot of hate towards them going around lately and it’s hard to tell)

I actually don‘t if you read on what I am saying is:

Celennar dies (but will be reborn in time, it‘s a spirit after all) and Eltharion should be „destroyed“ or MIA like Arkhan. Which means both will/can return

Show that defeating Death was no easy feat but a hard win victory.

It‘s no bias, it‘s about making the overarching story a bit more Interesting/meaningful.

Edited March 28, 2021 by JackStreicher

[overtninja]

Realistically, Nagash can't win, because it would mean endless death, forever, everywhere. Those are explicitly Nagash's goals, and the entire setting would end if he succeeded in any of his schemes, because he never goes for partial victory, he goes for high-stakes 'if my complext and lengthy ritual succeeds, all life shall be instantly and eternally snuffed out and I shall rule supreme forever!!!' gambits.

Therefor, Nagash can never succeed in his goals, because it's even worse than Choas succeeding and obliterating the world.

[edmc78]

1 hour ago, MetaphoricDragon said:

I'm really curious where the ominous "Life Ascendant " warning goes.  Not sure if there are other Marvel cosmic fans out there, but my mind immediately went to the Cancerverse, and thats pretty terrifying. 

Yes this was a wonderful concept of a terrible dimension. 

[edmc78]

8 hours ago, Gecktron said:

Him being part of a big and expensive multi-part kit together with two more important characters guarantees that he will not be squatted. Miniatures come first for GW, always. So as long as that kit exists, he is save. 

They also wouldnt have featured him so prominently in the Ossiarchs Tome if they had planned on getting rid of him. 

Like the others said, he will stay playable, but he might be out of action for a bit, from a narrative perspective. 
For a quick comparison, the Blood Angels have a playable character that has been "dead" for 6 editions now. 

Thanks. Somehow, Arkhantine survived ...

[mojojojo101]

4 hours ago, overtninja said:

Realistically, Nagash can't win, because it would mean endless death, forever, everywhere. Those are explicitly Nagash's goals, and the entire setting would end if he succeeded in any of his schemes, because he never goes for partial victory, he goes for high-stakes 'if my complext and lengthy ritual succeeds, all life shall be instantly and eternally snuffed out and I shall rule supreme forever!!!' gambits.

Therefor, Nagash can never succeed in his goals, because it's even worse than Choas succeeding and obliterating the world.

If Nagash can't fully win and he can't fully lose then before GW brings him back into the story they really need to come up with some way to make his character actually interesting because right now he is a villain who provides absolutely no threat because pretty much every time he turns up he achieves next to nothing then dies.

As I've said earlier in the thread, I think his apparent totalitarian control over Death opens up the kinds of interesting story that aren't really available to the the other Grand Alliances. I really do hope that going forward we can get a version of Nagash that, if he is to remain a villain, can somehow manage to squeeze himself in the vast gap between total victory and total disaster.

 

On the point about the Arkhan/Nagash models; I really don't think they are going anywhere, just like I don't think that because Teclis' reversed the effects of the Necroquake we are all going to be expected to throw our endless spell models in the bin.

 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

20 minutes ago, mojojojo101 said:

 

On the point about the Arkhan/Nagash models; I really don't think they are going anywhere, just like I don't think that because Teclis' reversed the effects of the Necroquake we are all going to be expected to throw our endless spell models in the bin.

 

Could you imagine GW releasing those new DoK endless spells just to remove endless spells entirely a month later? The fan meltdown would be insane!

[Neverchosen]

9 hours ago, Joseph Mackay said:

‘Cellenar/Eltharion should have died’ you mean killing off models not even a year old? 

I mean wasn't Eltharion already killed by Arkhan?
This fight now just makes the win lose ratio of the two 1/1 and has raised the stakes for their eventual rematch.  Maybe in that fight the two combatants can destroy one another or end in stalemate or whatever serves the purpose of the story. As you point out here this is a paratextual story used as a horizontal marketing strategy to promote the core game and miniatures. 
This was a book about Teclis and the Lumineth and so it was about their major victory, much like Morathi's story was one of ascendance and likely Be'Lakor's will involve the character having some form of victory (being Be'Lakor he will probably mess it up somehow). We still don't know all of the books that are releasing maybe we will get a Broken Realms: Nagash or Broken Realms: Random Mortarch and the story will entirely be about Nagash or his followers creating a massive death toll across the realms to replenish their forces. The reality is that this is an ongoing narrative and throughout the edition there has been a major focus on Nagash. He has suffered some huge defeats but in response to making a massive play across the realms including a resource heavy attempted invasion of the Eightpoints. Within the diegesis Nagash has had numerous setbacks, but on a meta/paratextual level we have gotten Nighthaunt, Ossiarch Bonereapers, and now Soulblight Gravelords out of the deal. I feel most Duardin or Destruction players would gladly let Grungni and Grimni or GorkaMorka get wrecked in a few stories if they got that level of support to their Factions/Alliance. Honestly, I feel that Death has become one of the most coherent Grand Alliances in the game alongside Chaos. 

I think Broken Realms: Teclis is a pretty cool story about one of the Order Gods actually being proactive in the face of Death and showing the true power of the Gods when it comes to actual displays of might and magic. Nagash also made a mistake stepping into a rival God's realm as I assume they have the most power in their respective realms. Arkhan's defeat was a forgone conclusion because it only makes sense for the reborn Eltharion to show a display of power in response to the enemy that had killed him in a past life. Luckily it is hard to keep an undead sorcerer or his deathly God down. So I wouldn't be overly worried about the models and their rules, as they will likely be back before the next edition releases as already showcased by White Dwarf. I actually really love the use of Gods in this narrative for this very purpose, the narrative can give them dramatic deaths and defeats but they can still be used in the narrative and game. I am more worried about the characters that are not divinely powered immortals, undead or demon worshipping champions... like what happens to Skragrott, Lotann or Brokk Grungsson when they die? 

Edited March 28, 2021 by Neverchosen

[Wobbly]

I think that the issue with Nagash is his supposed power level and what limitations are set upon him.

He is supposed to be this super powerful Death god that eats other death gods for breakfast while walking the realms doing his business, yet the other (mortal) gods need to be able to confront him as what would otherwise be able to halt him from achieving his goals?

To me it seems that the only beings within the setting that are stronger are the chaos gods and those have some rather harsh limitations set upon them to not wreck havoc on the setting and ending it. So if Nagash is supposed to be a legitimate threat to all life in the realms that the mortal gods can´t really face then he also needs to be given limitations of some kind.

 

Continuing the storyline of Nagash losing himself by becoming Death and every part of it could potentially solve that. It does have it consequences though, here are a few;

1. GW could ramp up the power of Nagash harshly without making it silly or realm breaking.
2. Where would a creature of Death start and Nagash end? Not to mention how much would his will be part of them?
   • Other characters of Death could be given more time in the spotlight.
   • Nagash could still be portrayed as pulling the strings from the background but from a more macro level.
3. Nagash old self could occasionally reform in pivotal moments and even if he wouldn't wield his full power that could create some real panic situations for the involved parties.
4. Death victories wont need to be about ultimate victory any more with the ego of Nagash being in the driver seat (not that it is a bad thing).
5. His miniature model could be an image/avatar of him and kept at the current power level.

In the end it seems to me that Nagash is either on another power level then other gods and therefore needs to be given limitations or he is just another mortal god of the bunch.

[xking]

A better Review of the Broken Realms Teclis story. 

 

 

[Paladin of Khorne]

I mean death just is. Nagash needs to take a more wait and let life come to him, rather than being a moustache twirling conquer the world because ‘Nyah’ type villain. Hades in mythology was ‘evil’, but he was content running his own realm knowing everything would go there eventually. 

[BadDice0809]

The calls from this certain section of the community for "kill Nagash/Death is so boring/we want conflict within Death" really seem to miss the point.

In the narrative, Chaos is (and always is) the big bad. Generally, its victory is inevitable (40k, WHFB). In AoS, both Death and Order don't want Chaos to ultimately succeed. However, its the differences between Death and Order that show their respective strengths and flaws, which then again show why Chaos will always, if not totally win, at least have a chance.

Order still places some value on free will (or at least the free will of its strongest actors). It includes the more traditional 'good guy' concepts. But because Order isn't willing to just enslave everyone (or wasnt at first... the 'Sigmar's Brand' note shows how desperate Sigmar may be getting) the very free will of its people means Chaos can always subvert and can't be totally destroyed.

Death is Order taken to that most extreme conclusion. One God, one will, no dissent, free will is gone, etc. Yes it defeats Chaos. But it is very much a 'cure is worse than the disease' situation. Since Order isn't willing to go this far, Death can't win because it can't beat Order and Chaos.

For Death to be something more than 'Order but with skeletons' it needs that singular will aspect (Nagash). I don't get why people complain about "no dissent under Nagash! No conflict!" while seemingly ignoring that Stormcast don't REALLY dissent under Sigmar(no Stormcast really questions or fights him), Khorne Worshippers don't dissent to Khorne, etc. Also, while Nagash can be the singular Godhead, there is still room for his servants (look at Nef and Mannfred) jockeying for power beneath him, or seeking conflicting ways to accomplish his goals. After all, while Nagash wants to be all, and all one with Nagash... he isn't quite there... yet. 

If Nagash is permanently weakened/reduced to essence/whatever, and Death is 'freed' from his control, the whole Grand Alliance really is just 'Order with...' and I think much less interesting for it.

[Charleston]

First of all, I wonder how people expect "Let Nagash win" to be played out? @Sorrow complained about "Age of Chaos" beeing a thing, nevertheless Age of Chaos is a thing we never actually experienced in "game time" as it was simply part of narrative worldbuilding. Current events have a tidbit more impact. Especially Nagash's goals are quite extreme. Let the Necroquake Succeed? Nice, all living are now dead, we cut 3 Grand Alliances from the game and call it a day? Success at invading Hysh/Eightpoints? Despite the fact that you would have to kill whole (sub)factions that are based on these Realms (LRL and Everchosen), the next step would be to have more and more Campaigns about Death invading stuff. Nice, exactly the kind of game we want.

As for the "But the baddies never win" argument, it is nonsense as soon as you start reading lore instead of consuming reddit memes. Especially as AoS 3.0 was damn grim and Broken Realms: Teclis is the first "Good Guys win" plotline since a long time.

1. AoS 2.0 started with the Necroquake. As mentioned above, in the narrative the Quake had to fail as it would end the whole setting. Bloody Skaven rescued the whole realms. Still the Necroquake gave Nagash a huge boost while  entagling Sigmar in a war of attrition. Damn, this was even reflected in GW's release politic! We had this Edition no new SCE Models after Sancrosant despite single Miniatures to celebrate store openings and stuff! Meanwhile GA: Death had a major overhaul with several new factions added.   
2. The Necroquake revealed Stormvaults which were Prisons and Secrets hidden by Sigmar and the Pantheon. This actually caused a huge load of trust issues within the already separated Order Pantheon. We had Lady Olynder release Katakross from a Stormvault which was full sucess for GA:Death, all within it's own Campaign Book (Forbidden Power).
3. Wrath of the Everchosen was a "baddies against baddies" Campaign. Katakross achived what even Sigmar didn´t manage: He got a foot into the Allpoints, interrupting Archaons plans. While not getting controll of the Eightpoints, it is still a great success.
4. Broken Realm: Morathi may be about GA: Order but I wouldn´t call it a "the good guys won again" in the narrative. Actually Morathi betrayed GA:Order once again, releasing a damned chaos god from his prison and ascending into godhood. While fighting common enemies, Morathi has her own goals and only cares for order as long as it is required for her plans. This is again a big fail for the real good guys, which even costs Sigmar a whole City. 

Broken Realm Teclis doesn´t make Order win the Edition. It merely ceases a long war that started to be dangerous to many factions. I am curious if Sigmar takes any role in the whole Plot or if it was all Teclis own solo approach, which would once again show how seperated GA:Order are. Imagine an Avengers Movie in which noone of the heroes cares to help but instead do whatever they like until Dr. Teclis Strange shows up, beats up the Bad Guy and then disappears again. The Story Arc that GW delivers is quite interesting and something I have not seen much around in TT Games. 

 tldr; People complain about stuff, mostly because they don´t know stuff . 

Edited March 28, 2021 by Charleston