Broken Realms: Teclis - SPOILER Discussion + Lore Summary

[Mutton]

20 minutes ago, Nightseer2012 said:

Eh, not sure about that, only because I don't see them entirely dropping his model or anything as dramatic as changing Grand Alliance.  If they "change" him, I feel like the most they would do would be giving him a revised Sub-faction within Ossiarch that reflects his new status and change his warscroll a little.   If only because they JUST put him in the Ossiarch.  Story wise it would be interesting, but I am trying to temper my crack-pot theories with the knowledge of what GW would do model wise.  If they even go so far as to make him a "good" Death character, I think it would be an Ossiarch subfaction that say... fights alongside order armies against chaos, hoovering up the dead bodies of both sides to make new Ossiarch.  Basically what Death USED to do before the Pantheon broke up, which  is what Arkhan wanted to do all along. 

This stuff is the easy, generic, boring answer. I'm talking about what I want to see from the narrative pushing forward into AoS. There's literally nothing stopping them from making a new model for Arkhan as a sun spirit or whatever. They don't even have to stop selling the old model, you'd just consider it a battle during his time as a Mortarch.

I can't predict what GW will or won't be willing to do, but anything is possible. Fortunately, as fans, we don't always have to look at things from the cynical, corporate point of view.

I can tell you what though, bringing him back as the same old Mortarch, but merely calling him "enlightened" with a few fancy keywords...THAT would be the worst of all worlds---because who cares. Now we're getting into 40k lore where nothing ever really changes, and the same ****** wads are floating around doing the same ****** wad things for 20 years. In that situation I'd rather he just not exist.

 

Edited April 4, 2021 by Mutton

[Causalis]

2 minutes ago, Mutton said:

I can't predict what GW will or won't be willing to do, but anything is possible. Fortunately, as fans, we don't always have to look at things from the cynical, corporate point of view.

True that. And I would be pleasently surprised if GW decided to make a new Arkhan model. But on the other hand I can't see a reason for that. His current model is still very cool and even relatively new. It is also a shared kit with Manni and Nef and if they replaced Arkhan with a new model they would have to change the mould for the Mortarchs kit - which we know is very expensive.

Thus I can't really see Arkhan getting discontinued or getting a new model. He'll probably not exist/be dead in the lore for a while and some day be resurrected again. And since the OBR book is still pretty new I don't think his warscroll will change until he comes back. 

I mean it would be totally awesome if GW threw a curveball and Nagash doesn't resurrect Arkhan. His steed dives after him as we know. So maybe it snatches up his essence. Arkhan then absorbes the souls that his steed has in his belly and remakes himself, thus being not directly bound to Nagash. This process kills his steed and we get Arkhan as a new mini that dials up his Lich-dome with floating souls around him and crackling death energy and leaning more towards a sorcerer in his aesthetic. Do I think this scenario is likely? No. Is it awesome? Heck yeah!

The likely scenario is probably the boring one: Arkhan is on hiatus, get's resurrected somehow and maybe gets a new warscroll but no new mini because his current one is too new. GW could tie this in with a second wave of OBRs and a new Battletome.

[Envyus]

12 minutes ago, Causalis said:

 

The likely scenario is probably the boring one: Arkhan is on hiatus, get's resurrected somehow and maybe gets a new warscroll but no new mini because his current one is too new. GW could tie this in with a second wave of OBRs and a new Battletome.

Or maybe he is just dead, like everything points towards. 

59 minutes ago, Mutton said:

What if he shows up as a sun spirit to aid Tyrion's return. Redemption is a theme we don't often see among the main cast of Warhammer that I think could be deeper explored.

But Tyrion is already around. He is just off doing something else. 

6 hours ago, Clewzy said:

Any ideas what "goad the dragon" is referring to?

It's a pretty common saying in real life, to the point there is a trope named after it. It just means to purposefully upset something that you would consider scary or strong. Teclis purposefully spiting Nagash is goading the dragon.  

[Sception]

8 minutes ago, Envyus said:

Or maybe he is just dead, like everything points towards.  

Everything except the fairly well established lore that the Mortarchs exist as long as Nagash exists and has a use for them.  Hence Arkhan returning from equally fatal deaths in the past, Sigmar having to imprison Katakros because he couldn't truly destroy him, the og3 even existing at all after the old world died, etc.

[Envyus]

10 minutes ago, Sception said:

Everything except the fairly well established lore that the Mortarchs exist as long as Nagash exists and has a use for them.  Hence Arkhan returning from equally fatal deaths in the past, Sigmar having to imprison Katakros because he couldn't truly destroy him, the og3 even existing at all after the old world died, etc.

Nagash was stated to have found the remnants of their souls and recreated them.  If Arkhan's Soul is lost I don't think he can do that. 

Edited April 4, 2021 by Envyus

[silverstu]

6 hours ago, Clewzy said:

Any ideas what "goad the dragon" is referring to?

Maybe Malerion? He's been very quiet - perhaps Teclis throwing his weight around might provoke him to action?

[The Black Marshal]

Maybe Tyrion’s Sun spirit is a dragon he rides?

[Neverchosen]

1 hour ago, The Black Marshal said:

Maybe Tyrion’s Sun spirit is a dragon he rides?

Based off of what happened to poor Dorghar we might get Malhandir mutated into some dreadful abomination 😭

In all seriousness I would love to see Tyrion astride a noble dragon that would be cool.

[NinthMusketeer]

I particularly like the  idea of Arkhan getting a new miniature, because it means the current one could become a generic 'Liche Lord on Abyssal Steed' to give Deathrattle an equivalent to the VLoZD. 

[Nightseer2012]

5 hours ago, Mutton said:

This stuff is the easy, generic, boring answer. I'm talking about what I want to see from the narrative pushing forward into AoS. There's literally nothing stopping them from making a new model for Arkhan as a sun spirit or whatever. They don't even have to stop selling the old model, you'd just consider it a battle during his time as a Mortarch.

I can't predict what GW will or won't be willing to do, but anything is possible. Fortunately, as fans, we don't always have to look at things from the cynical, corporate point of view.

I can tell you what though, bringing him back as the same old Mortarch, but merely calling him "enlightened" with a few fancy keywords...THAT would be the worst of all worlds---because who cares. Now we're getting into 40k lore where nothing ever really changes, and the same ****** wads are floating around doing the same ****** wad things for 20 years. In that situation I'd rather he just not exist.

 

I mean, "there is nothing stopping them" is technically true, but it doesn't change what GW has or hasn't done historically.  I am all for narratives moving forward, but I am also all for army continuity.  It would be really interesting for a series of books or movies for Arkhan to go from leading the Legion of Sacrament, to the Null Myriad, to "THE SUN LEGION" or something, but as a literal Arkhan player who owns his model, him jumping from army to army would get really frustrating.  I already am having to deal with the idea that he isn't going to be in the Soulblight Book, so I can no longer have him leading my normal skeletons around and will only be in the Ossiarch Book.  As a Legion of Sacrament player, losing him is already a pain in the ass.

Something could easily be said for "anything is possible", but outright ignoring the "cynical corporate point of view" leads to a lot of disappointment when it comes to GW.  Personally, if they make a new model for him in a few years, awesome, that would be super fun, but I don't think they will be doing it soon unless they also intend to make new models for Mannfred and Neferata simply because they all come in the same box, and I simply haven't seen any evidence that they plan to make new models for the two Soulblight Mortarchs.  When they start teasing new models for the Soulblight Mortarchs closer to Gravelords being released, then sure, then I think a new Arkhan model could be on the table, easy. 

It would be super cool to see an Arkhan altered by his time in the Perimiter Inimical.  I would love to see the story actually matter in that case, and Arkhan is the perfect character for that style of a redemption arc.  But I also think there is something to be said for Arkhan becoming a good guy while still being a leader of a DEATH faction.  That was his whole point of view in the first place, that DEATH and ORDER should be working together, and I think making DEATH a little less cartoonishly evil by allowing them to have a good aligned character leader would go a long way towards making that goal a reality, instead of stealing the closest thing DEATH has to a wise leader and, making him a sun spirit, plonking him into ORDER because "that is where the good guys go".  That is why I would be ok with an Arkhan with some rules and lore changes but still being an Ossiarch leader.  It is a change in mentality and outlook that comes with being enlightened, something subtle but still profound.

[Envyus]

I still think he is just dead. 
 

also goading the dragon is a common term. It was just referring to Teclis antagonizing Nagash.

[Sception]

He's certainly dead for now, in the narrative at least and I doubt the writers at GW have made any decision on whether or how long he will stay that way, certainly no decision they couldn't just as easily reverse a couple years down the line.

In the mean time hIs model and unit rules aren't going anywhere, and I doubt they will.  As long as Mannfred & Neferata keep their current models Arkhans keeps his as well, and as long as his model remains in circulation so will his rules.

[Envyus]

1 hour ago, Sception said:

He's certainly dead for now, in the narrative at least and I doubt the writers at GW have made any decision on whether or how long he will stay that way, certainly no decision they couldn't just as easily reverse a couple years down the line.

In the mean time hIs model and unit rules aren't going anywhere, and I doubt they will.  As long as Mannfred & Neferata keep their current models Arkhans keeps his as well, and as long as his model remains in circulation so will his rules.

I never doubted his rules would remain intact. Fantasy and 40k had tons of historical characters that were dead in universe. 

[Phasteon]

What good lich leaves his home without a phylactery to conserve his soul?? 

I did not read BR:Teclis myself and I highly doubt its as poorly written as people say – but I doubt even more that Arkhan is gone for good, as much as Nagash won‘t be gone forever. 

Gravelords are coming (ofc lords. can‘t wait for new Fyreslayers aka Magmic Battlelords) so they needed to do sth with the story regarding death. so that vampires can now have their time to shine – which they can‘t when Nagash holds the leash. (Or Arkhan as his Lt.) 

 

After some bloodbathing and blooddrinking including a big hangover Nagash + Arkhan will be back like „WTF did you do to my home!?!? Oh you little blooddrinking sh*ts will clean up that mess or else“ 

 

Just my prediction though.

If not, Arkhan will (un)live on in my heart and lists <3

[stratigo]

1 hour ago, Phasteon said:

What good lich leaves his home without a phylactery to conserve his soul?? 

I did not read BR:Teclis myself and I highly doubt its as poorly written as people say – but I doubt even more that Arkhan is gone for good, as much as Nagash won‘t be gone forever. 

Gravelords are coming (ofc lords. can‘t wait for new Fyreslayers aka Magmic Battlelords) so they needed to do sth with the story regarding death. so that vampires can now have their time to shine – which they can‘t when Nagash holds the leash. (Or Arkhan as his Lt.) 

 

After some bloodbathing and blooddrinking including a big hangover Nagash + Arkhan will be back like „WTF did you do to my home!?!? Oh you little blooddrinking sh*ts will clean up that mess or else“ 

 

Just my prediction though.

If not, Arkhan will (un)live on in my heart and lists ❤️

I got around to it and it’s Kay. The fights are a bit one sided ultimately in that teclis pretty much achieves all his strategic goals and Nagash achieved none. There’s a bit of damage and devastation and the mysterious lingering injury, but those weren’t strategic aims for nagash, he categorically failed to achieve any on his strategic goals and if you know anything about military history, then you’d know that tactical considerations are far far less important than operational and strategic ones. People can get distracted by the flash and glitz of a flashy tactical victory, but if that victory fails to achieve the strategic goal, then it is entirely worthless. That’s the ultimate feel I get from reading the narrative. Gw, not being experts, tried to give nagash a bit of bite through making the elves pay a high tactical cost, but utterly failed to make his threat actually, well, meaningful because he never achieves anything meaningful towards his plans or goals. 
 

it is pretty clear though that nagash has always been an utterly inept military leader. And indeed I think he on some level recognizes this. The problem is... non of his underlings except one are any good at it either, or at least any good at achieving his goals. Without katakros, death is a lot more toothless since he seems to be the only one with both the skill and the inclination to pursue nagash’s agenda militarily. Mannfred deliberately tries to find loopholes, neffy probably does too, and she also has no meaningful experience in warfare, though she is an ample delegator. Olyander doesn’t seem to really have a lot of autonomy of self. And Arkhan doesn’t really have the head for war either, though he is a better diplomat and administrator than nagash is

 

this is likely why nagash’s default strategy is always “cast the big flashy spell that will make me super god plus!” 

Edited April 5, 2021 by stratigo

[Sception]

Arkhan is/was generally good at achieving a lot of goals, mostly in the form of manipulative diplomatic endeavors & obscure arcane rituals.  While he's a passable field commander, he's never been portrayed as any sort of amazing military genius the way the writers want us to think of Katakros.  And, yeah, Katakros is a big deal, and a type of character that that the undead really needed both in universe and from an outside perspective looking at unfilled character niches.

Nobody knows the future, and even if the writer(s) of BR:Teclis intend for Arkhan to be permanently dead and gone, another writer a few years down the line could decide it's more interesting to have him around and just bring him back.  And that's what I expect, because, again, there just isn't any other death character around that can fill Arkhan's shoes in terms of the function he serves in the narrative.  There needs to be a 'little Nagash' that can represent and embody Nagash's interests but on a relatable, vaguely human scale, and there needs to be a character that Nagash trusts with his private plans, someone for him to explain them to so that readers can overhear that conversation.

While Nagash is in hibernation these things aren't as critical, so it's possible Arkhan won't return before Nagash does, which I predict will be at least an entire edition away, maybe more.  At the same time, though, I wouldn't be surprised if Arkhan is back well before that.

[NinthMusketeer]

4 hours ago, stratigo said:

I got around to it and it’s Kay. The fights are a bit one sided ultimately in that teclis pretty much achieves all his strategic goals and Nagash achieved none. There’s a bit of damage and devastation and the mysterious lingering injury, but those weren’t strategic aims for nagash, he categorically failed to achieve any on his strategic goals and if you know anything about military history, then you’d know that tactical considerations are far far less important than operational and strategic ones. People can get distracted by the flash and glitz of a flashy tactical victory, but if that victory fails to achieve the strategic goal, then it is entirely worthless. That’s the ultimate feel I get from reading the narrative. Gw, not being experts, tried to give nagash a bit of bite through making the elves pay a high tactical cost, but utterly failed to make his threat actually, well, meaningful because he never achieves anything meaningful towards his plans or goals. 
 

it is pretty clear though that nagash has always been an utterly inept military leader. And indeed I think he on some level recognizes this. The problem is... non of his underlings except one are any good at it either, or at least any good at achieving his goals. Without katakros, death is a lot more toothless since he seems to be the only one with both the skill and the inclination to pursue nagash’s agenda militarily. Mannfred deliberately tries to find loopholes, neffy probably does too, and she also has no meaningful experience in warfare, though she is an ample delegator. Olyander doesn’t seem to really have a lot of autonomy of self. And Arkhan doesn’t really have the head for war either, though he is a better diplomat and administrator than nagash is

 

this is likely why nagash’s default strategy is always “cast the big flashy spell that will make me super god plus!” 

Well the entire premise of the book is 'Death loses the momentum it's had for the whole edition' so I think it is a bit unfair of a criticism. After all, Nagash failing his strategic goals here comes after a very long string of him massively succeeding. The Realmgate wars were a big boon for Order in that they closed two arcways to Eightpoints. Death actually recaptured theirs and continues to hold it. Death is the dominant force in Shyish for the first time since the Age of Myth, and that hold was not disrupted. Vokmortian even mocks Teclis, telling him the one hold he did destroy has fallen before and they will just rebuild them again. We don't know how much of an impact there will be from that. As for competent military leaders? Go read Neferata's books, where she is actually doing that; this is one snapshot where she was attempting a stealth mission and happened to be discovered, barely. Mannfred had his campaign reach his desired result in exactly the way he planned it--the only character in the book who has his strategy unfold without any issue.

You are correct that Nagash is not a military mastermind--he is a magical one. He uses necromancy to solve problems that others would rely on tactics to deal with, and I view it as rather unfair to disregard the 'I throw a spell and it dies' tactic when we are talking about a guy who can literally chuck a half dozen purple suns at once.

It feels like people are not only willing, but actively trying to ignore an entire edition of success because Nagash failed once.

[Sception]

People were ignoring an entire edition of success the entire time, but I never have.  That's why it feels odd to me that reversing an entire edition's worth of momentum didn't require more deliberate planning and the cooperation of more forces.

A separate but parallel criticism is the decision to bring the Soul Wars to an end without the participation of some of the factions and individuals who were most actively involved in fighting it.  There should have been some participation by Sigmar & the Stormcast, particularly the Anvils of Heldenhammer.  Alarielle and the Sylvanneth should have been actively on board, not admonishing Teclis the whole time and participating only in the most mild and indirect ways.  At least there was a Cities presence, but the overall feeling is that this was for the most part an effort of just Teclis and his Lumineth, and defeating the primary antagonist / ending the primary plotline of an entire edition of the game simply should have required the active participation of more forces than that.

And on the death side, it feels weird that the Nighthaunt weren't more involved than they were.  They were at least more present than the Stormcast, but they weren't central the way I would have liked to see them in a storyline resolving and ending the Soul Wars storyline.  A shame Olynder couldn't have been here, even if only as one more death character to take it on the chin.  Yeah, she and her armies are busy in the 8 points, but so are the ossiarchs and they were here.

[Acid_Nine]

It's not like the Aelves had an easy victory either. Could hardly go a page without the lumineth being killed in great numbers. Also, several units were pretty much described as completely ineffective, like Wardens or sentinels, when the major glory goes to units like Aralith or the new wind-units. Also, the elves are being pushed to their limits in this story, with a desperate race to stop nagash from killing what is essentially a minor god everyone loves, and we don't even get the full resolution of if the mountain recovers or not. 

Plus, that is not to mention that the whole of Teclis's campaign in Shysh basically amounts to him bragging to his allies that he kicked over Katakros's grave-sand castles when he wasn't home. kinda weak, but hey the stories were engaging and it's the first time in this edition since nagash got some dirt kicked onto his Ossiarch empire.

 

Another thing  I wanna point out is that Teclis didn't even defeat nagash singlehandedly. He was getting his ass handed to him for most of the fight until he got help from Celenar and his humans, and eventually a ****** ton of mountain spirits. even then Teclis was getting pounded into the sand until he ultimately won through what was essentially the power of friendship. Nagash kinda cheated by having his mages sacrifice themselves to get their god empowered, and he tapped into his Nadir stuff that was rather typical, so without an asspull of the same kind from teclis I probably should have expected that.

What I really like in this story is the introduction of stakes to the Ossiarchs. The idea of destroying the bodies of allies and ossiarchs alike to starve out the Bonereapers makes sense, and now fighting against them isn't an exercise in futility. endless hordes of the bony boys can only be so interesting, and allowing the heroes to actually make progress against them is a nice change of pace.

[NinthMusketeer]

I totally agree with the bit about Lumineth finding means to resource-deny OBR.

But TBF to Teclis here, it was his superior planning and understanding of his foe that won him the battle more than friendship. He new Nagash's pride, so he knew Nagash could be tricked into believing Celennar banished when he'd actually gone to get reinforcements. Teclis previously ensured Settler's Gain had those Hysh-lasers in the first place, so he knew the specific aid he needed would be there.

I will admit Alarielle did lend him aid a bit in his personal duel with Nagash so there some 'power of friendship' going on. I personally found it to be a light enough touch to add a bit of depth without being lame but I can respect others having a different impression.

Edited April 5, 2021 by NinthMusketeer

[Acid_Nine]

2 hours ago, NinthMusketeer said:

I totally agree with the bit about Lumineth finding means to resource-deny OBR.

But TBF to Teclis here, it was his superior planning and understanding of his foe that won him the battle more than friendship. He new Nagash's pride, so he knew Nagash could be tricked into believing Celennar banished when he'd actually gone to get reinforcements. Teclis previously ensured Settler's Gain had those Hysh-lasers in the first place, so he knew the specific aid he needed would be there.

I will admit Alarielle did lend him aid a bit in his personal duel with Nagash so there some 'power of friendship' going on. I personally found it to be a light enough touch to add a bit of depth without being lame but I can respect others having a different impression.

that is all fair, I may need to read it again and may have been exaggerating. I liked the super mage god fight though, and it was enjoyable in seeing a ****** getting his ass handed to him in a way.

Also, It is my own personal head cannon  to think that there has been a beef carried over from the old world to AoS. Teclis tried his hardest to save the world from the End Times, but Nagash was the one who set all that hell into motion. Now nagash is pulling schemes and putting evil plans in place, and Teclis is just sick of it really. Plus, Nagash revived Mannfred and Arkan, both directly causing the death of his friend and his niece.

[novakai]

4 hours ago, Sception said:

People were ignoring an entire edition of success the entire time, but I never have.  That's why it feels odd to me that reversing an entire edition's worth of momentum didn't require more deliberate planning and the cooperation of more forces.

A separate but parallel criticism is the decision to bring the Soul Wars to an end without the participation of some of the factions and individuals who were most actively involved in fighting it.  There should have been some participation by Sigmar & the Stormcast, particularly the Anvils of Heldenhammer.  Alarielle and the Sylvanneth should have been actively on board, not admonishing Teclis the whole time and participating only in the most mild and indirect ways.  At least there was a Cities presence, but the overall feeling is that this was for the most part an effort of just Teclis and his Lumineth, and defeating the primary antagonist / ending the primary plotline of an entire edition of the game simply should have required the active participation of more forces than that.

And on the death side, it feels weird that the Nighthaunt weren't more involved than they were.  They were at least more present than the Stormcast, but they weren't central the way I would have liked to see them in a storyline resolving and ending the Soul Wars storyline.  A shame Olynder couldn't have been here, even if only as one more death character to take it on the chin.  Yeah, she and her armies are busy in the 8 points, but so are the ossiarchs and they were here.

i had a feeling there where suppose to have been more Soul War novels that continued Balthas Arum storyline  and really explore the whole narrative but the plans fell flat and then Josh Reynold left Black library.

[NinthMusketeer]

I think saying the soul wars are over is like saying that factions stopped fighting over realmgates when the RGW campaign books finished up. Hell, the core narrative is Teclis inspiring mortalkind to continue that fight, and against Nighthaunt specifically. I don't know where people are getting the idea and it is just reinforcing my perception that there is a strong current of trying to dislike the narrative by coming up with reasons or blowing things out of proportion. Which is made even further strange because disliking the narrative does not need justification to be a valid position!

It's like if I tried a food and said I disliked it for having too much pepper, when the food had no pepper in it. I could have just said 'I don't like it' and that would be valid. By adding a reason that does not apply, I have taken an inherently legitimate position and compromised it.

[novakai]

31 minutes ago, NinthMusketeer said:

I think saying the soul wars are over is like saying that factions stopped fighting over realmgates when the RGW campaign books finished up. Hell, the core narrative is Teclis inspiring mortalkind to continue that fight, and against Nighthaunt specifically. I don't know where people are getting the idea and it is just reinforcing my perception that there is a strong current of trying to dislike the narrative by coming up with reasons or blowing things out of proportion. Which is made even further strange because disliking the narrative does not need justification to be a valid position!

It's like if I tried a food and said I disliked it for having too much pepper, when the food had no pepper in it. I could have just said 'I don't like it' and that would be valid. By adding a reason that does not apply, I have taken an inherently legitimate position and compromised it.

aren't you just overtly  zealously defending it? which is just as bad as those people you are accusing of dislike it for no reason 

i am just saying the whole soul war narrative itself wasn't really expanded on well for the conclusion to felt worth it and all in one narrative  book. 

[Sception]

45 minutes ago, NinthMusketeer said:

I don't know where people are getting the idea

Mostly this part:

"Glowing bright with power, Teclis pulled upon the cords of light that had bound Nagash and plucked the aetherquartz lenses from the distant Luminarks that were channelling them, hurling the discs high into the sky one after another so that they formed an artificial constellation. With their Ossiarch foes stunned into torpid inactivity by the destruction of their master, the Lumineth watched in rapt attention as the magical lenses were set in the firmament above Hysh. Seen from the cosmos, the radiant discs formed a pictogram – Danathroir, the rune of banishment and sanctity. In that instant, with Nagash exorcised and the light of Hysh blazing bright across the Mortal Realms, the lingering, deathly curse of the Necroquake was broken forever."