Broken Realms: Teclis - SPOILER Discussion + Lore Summary

[Koala]

So as someone who has not read the book: does anything surprising happen? Anything that actually changes anything?

Because that was what surprised (and exited) me about Morathi. 

Noone saw "she is now a god but shizo". Or the newborn. 

A previously named city changed ownership. (The map changed!)

And this is represented in new rules for her. (And a sub-faction, also quite cool).

 

But as far as i can tell nothing like that happens here. Sure, the necroquake is done, nagash destroyed... but is he really? 

I mean he will be back. That is why the undead are so beloved as villians... You can utterly defeat them and they are still "there" ( he will reform whenever he is needed both lore wise and on the tabletop).

Considering everything is just made up and we have no numbers "armies were destroyed" is also not of permanent value. We will just see more deus-ex-machina up whenever needed. 

I confess i DO believe nagash weakened is the best outcome for any future plot lines to develope... 

But is anything about that already developed?

I would love a shattered nagash ( with weaker rules and cost, also more reasonable to have a "shard of nagash" lead an army. And more options for death to have character). 

Newly aroused inhabitants of the realm of death, rising Up against their undead Masters? Yes! 

But nothing like that happens. These are all "tbd".

As far as i can see it the "big map" did not change at all. And that is a bit underwhelming. Same as the 40k cadians, who were defeated but continue to be "the" Guard Force, i fear avacuum where fluff changed but actually no, it did not.

This does not bode well for Allarielle and Belakor. (Both of which i am far more interested than this book)

[NinthMusketeer]

Nagash has had a repeat of when Archaon shattered his physical form. Yes, he will come back, but it is important because it sends his power and will into recession for a significant period. While OBR have the discipline and organization to keep going, the likes of Nighthaunt need higher powers to give them direction and coordination--Olynder is unlikely to be as adept on that as she would be with Nagash playing an active role. Further, people being less afraid of Death literally makes Nighthaunt easier to kill.

Conventional LoN and especially Soulblight are almost certainly going to see a surge of infighting without the dominating will of Nagash. Obviously they already were, but whereas Neffy and Mannfred could only act within the context of Nagash's orders before they now have far more leeway to do what they want. And Arkhan the Black is gone, perhaps permanently. That alone is huge.

At the end Alarielle tells Teclis that life will surge in the wake of death receding. That can mean Sylvaneth, but it can also mean Nurgle. She broadly implies that there are going to be consequences for what Teclis did and that he should have waited until Chaos was further pushed back.

On a less definite level both Ymetrica and the Null Myriad have been devastated. How that plays out, if at all, we will have to see. And that is much of BRTeclis; it is clearly setting up future narrative. Something that can easily be lost through reviews rather than actually reading it is how much subtext of 'this will matter later' and foreshadowing is within the writing. Stuff like that is why I always avoid listening to others go over the story before reading it myself; there is a lot of subtlety and tone which (by necessity) is skimmed over during a review.

Edited March 31, 2021 by NinthMusketeer

[Joseph Mackay]

5 hours ago, Enoby said:

Are Cities of Sigmar rules considered bad? I know very little about them but I heard they were written by someone who loves the faction - of course, that could just be a myth

My understanding is that he wrote the lore, but someone else wrote the rules. The biggest problem for me is Cities is designed in such a way that it wants you to mix Duardin, Aelves and Humans together but all of the synergies within the book are locked to specific subfactions (Dispossessed or Order Serpentis for example). The rules mean the army doesn’t function how gw wants it to from a lore point of view.

I also despise the subtle nerfs that occurred. For example all unit leaders get +1 attack, all banners give +1 bravery etc regardless of which unit it is, this means Dispossessed lost their unique rules like 4+ to ignore spells 

Edited March 31, 2021 by Joseph Mackay

[Joseph Mackay]

5 hours ago, NinthMusketeer said:

OBR don't have the most OP rules possible. Petrifax was dumb and both the Harvester and catapult have mechanical problems. But that still leaves most of the battletome which may be overpowered (Katakros) but simply due to their point cost being too low rather than a design issue.

Cities of Sigmar aren't bad unless one assumes nonsensical list design, which is never a fair assumption to make.

My main problem with Bonereapers is the Hekatos removing the need for a hero to babysit them like every other death army requires, they took away deaths biggest weakness and I’m not convinced they are paying for it. Had this been implemented to other armies too I would have no issues with it as it kind of made sense that unit leaders would have some command over their units

[NinthMusketeer]

45 minutes ago, Joseph Mackay said:

My understanding is that he wrote the lore, but someone else wrote the rules. The biggest problem for me is Cities is designed in such a way that it wants you to mix Duardin, Aelves and Humans together but all of the synergies within the book are locked to specific subfactions (Dispossessed or Order Serpentis for example). The rules mean the army doesn’t function how gw wants it to from a lore point of view.

I also despise the subtle nerfs that occurred. For example all unit leaders get +1 attack, all banners give +1 bravery etc regardless of which unit it is, this means Dispossessed lost their unique rules like 4+ to ignore spells 

I love that they standardized the effects of unit leaders, banners, and music as it makes things easier to remember and far more practical during games. I wish they would be better about having such consistency in other armies, even.

[NinthMusketeer]

43 minutes ago, Joseph Mackay said:

My main problem with Bonereapers is the Hekatos removing the need for a hero to babysit them like every other death army requires, they took away deaths biggest weakness and I’m not convinced they are paying for it. Had this been implemented to other armies too I would have no issues with it as it kind of made sense that unit leaders would have some command over their units

I like it as I think it really fits the theme of the force and provides a unique supporting mechanic which makes them feel like a disciplined and self-sufficient fighting force on the battlefield. I would note that as an army they still need heroes for relentless discipline points, but they don't need their heroes to babysit units--because the guys in those units actually know what they are doing. And on an army-wide level OBR still suffer harshly when their heroes are removed, putting them within the 'bell curve' of that mechanic for Death simply at the edge of it.

However I can also see how one would experience it the way you do, especially if they have ready access to sniping (for my part I am used to just assuming Death models are getting the 6+ all the time to the point I will forget they actually lose it sometimes!).

[Sception]

4 hours ago, Joseph Mackay said:

My main problem with Bonereapers is the Hekatos removing the need for a hero to babysit them like every other death army requires, they took away deaths biggest weakness and I’m not convinced they are paying for it. Had this been implemented to other armies too I would have no issues with it as it kind of made sense that unit leaders would have some command over their units

The entire narrative point is to have undead that don't need babysitters.  But even then their backbone unit needs a lot of discipline points to be effective, which means you need to spend a lot of points on heroes to generate those points, and while the units in theory don't need heroes nearby to babysit them, the heroes still want to be near your units both for protection and to keep in range to use their various buffs.  So in practice the independence of the obr units is really rather overstated.

and ossiarchs have a number of very exploitable weaknesses.  They're slow, and have comparatively low numbers in both model and unit count, which are big drawbacks in the objective game. lack of cheap chaff alse means they have a hard time screening against fast flying units, deep strikers, teleportation, & similar shenanigans.  They're predictable, right now they only have one viable backbone unit, mortek guard, which will mostly play the same way every game.  Their magic is pretty weak both offensively and defensively due to high cost wizards and a lack of casting & dispell bonuses, allowing magic heavy armies to run roughshod over them.  Arkhan & Nagash are obvious exceptions, but Arkhan is super fragile for his points while Nagash is so expensive you barely get an army to go with him.  The army relies a lot on armor saves, and has relativrly poor defense against mortal wounds or even high rend attacks after the removal of layered ward saves.  OBR are strong in a head to head, by the book scrum, but they lack the turn order shenanigans, overwhelming ranged power, teleportation abilities, arcane dominance, mortal wound output, & other 'outside the box' gimmickry that has set the dominant armies of the last few years above the rest.

basically, they're a newb check.  If you just push all your dudes into a big scrum in the center of the board they'll probably beat you to a pulp, but if you assassinate their heroes, dismantle their artillery, dance around their infantry, play to the objectives, and make use of whatever outside the box gimmicks your army has access to, then they're not all that bad.

Petrifex was maybe a bit much, and there's certainly potential for OBR to become more op when and if their line is expanded, but if not for covid keeping people away from tables I think by now most folks would have thoroughly solved any problems they might have initially had in dealing with them just through trial & error.

Edited April 1, 2021 by Sception

[Sception]

8 hours ago, Koala said:

Because that was what surprised (and exited) me about Morathi. 

Noone saw "she is now a god but shizo".

I'd argue 'morathi is a god now' is a smaller narrative change than 'the soul wars are over, the nighthaunt surge that's been besieging basically everyone everywhere is gone, Nagash & Arkhan are gone (from the narrative if not from the game table) for at least an edition, and with Nagash gone the factions that used to make up grand alliance death have collapsed into infighting, and a realm that had previously been almost as tightly locked down under Nagash's control as Azyr is under Sigmars is now up for grabs.

Also, the Shyish Nadiir is maybe gone?  Second hand descriptions I've read of what teclis did with his big rune have been unclear whether he just quieted the aftershocks of the necroquake, or whether the magic of shyish has been returned to its perimiter, as it was before the necroquake ever happened, which would be a very big deal, as it would allow for new afterlives to start forming again, and what were the stable heartlands of shyish would stop being torn apart by the black hole at their center.

Regardless of opinions on what happened & how it went down, br:teclis is a pretty big deal in terms of narrative.  Maybe it isn't doing as much in terms of setting up 3rd edition plot threads, but it is doing the bulk of the work in wrapping up 2nd edition ones.

Edited April 1, 2021 by Sception

[LuminethMage]

I mean, I'm not opposed to the Lumineth making even more of a splash, but wrapping up Soul Wars does seem to be pretty impactful to me. And GW had to give that role to someone, if they want to move forward, and not just forget about it, which happens often. 

I've not read the book, but if I'm not mistaken, this should also reduce pressure on Order/Chaos/Destruction forces in all the realms, because some death factions have been severely weakened for a while, while others will be occupied with trying gain supremacy in Shyish. Which again can lead to all kind of unexpected side effects - something Alarielle hinting at. 

Also - there was yet another plan from Nagash, which again would have pretty much destroyed everything, if he wasn't stopped. The realm of Hysh was disintegrating partly from effect originating from the Necroquake etc. Of course Nagash et al will be back in the end, but if that doesn't count neither would the newborn of Slaanesh, which was one of the major plot points in BR Morathi. Or her becoming a good, because she always was one, but in name. 

In the end what will be more impactful depends on which strains they'll pick up and explore in the future. This could also include some minor ones from both books. 

I wouldn't try to put them against each other, BR Morathi is a great read, and led to all kind of exciting possibilities. I'm sure, BR Teclis will be too, and both will be good in their own right. Both books seem to have a big impact on the story, as much as you can in a game like AoS. Yes, we know that Nagash and Arkhan will be back - but it will be interesting to see how they'll be re-introduced. 

I'm super excited for the next entires in the series which it looks like we'll see very soon. 

[novakai]

Eh the soul war never gave me much of an impact as a narrative event because it was only largely focus on two event that meant anything Forbidden power  and wraith of the ever chosen. 
 

basically they lost Josh Reynolds and never follow up on the Soul War novels. Teclis ending soul wars felt kind of too soon and anti climatic 

[novakai]

2 hours ago, Sception said:

The entire narrative point is to have undead that don't need babysitters.  But even then their backbone unit needs a lot of discipline points to be effective, which means you need to spend a lot of points on heroes to generate those points, and while the units in theory don't need heroes nearby to babysit them, the heroes still want to be near your units both for protection and to keep in range to use their various buffs.  So in practice the independence of the obr units is really rather overstated.

and ossiarchs have a number of very exploitable weaknesses.  They're slow, and have comparatively low numbers in both model and unit count, which are big drawbacks in the objective game. lack of cheap chaff alse means they have a hard time screening against fast flying units, deep strikers, teleportation, & similar shenanigans.  They're predictable, right now they only have one viable backbone unit, mortek guard, which will mostly play the same way every game.  Their magic is pretty weak both offensively and defensively due to high cost wizards and a lack of casting & dispell bonuses, allowing magic heavy armies to run roughshod over them.  Arkhan & Nagash are obvious exceptions, but Arkhan is super fragile for his points while Nagash is so expensive you barely get an army to go with him.  The army relies a lot on armor saves, and has relativrly poor defense against mortal wounds or even high rend attacks after the removal of layered ward saves.  OBR are strong in a head to head, by the book scrum, but they lack the turn order shenanigans, overwhelming ranged power, teleportation abilities, arcane dominance, mortal wound output, & other 'outside the box' gimmickry that has set the dominant armies of the last few years above the rest.

basically, they're a newb check.  If you just push all your dudes into a big scrum in the center of the board they'll probably beat you to a pulp, but if you assassinate their heroes, dismantle their artillery, dance around their infantry, play to the objectives, and make use of whatever outside the box gimmicks your army has access to, then they're not all that bad.

Petrifex was maybe a bit much, and there's certainly potential for OBR to become more op when and if their line is expanded, but if not for covid keeping people away from tables I think by now most folks would have thoroughly solved any problems they might have initially had in dealing with them just through trial & error.

I think OBR just got unlucky with being the army that skewed the competitive scene too much because only certain armies and build did well against them as Petrafix elite and having terrible sub faction internal balancing at release. Like why does it have the +1 save but also the best command ability and arguably the best artifact and command trait compare to the other legion. Who thought Ivory host was comparative to any of the other legions.
 
most release that came afterward like tzeentch, KO, LRL, and even SoB probably would have done ok against prenerf  OBR.

 

[NinthMusketeer]

We're still at least two campaign books from the presumed (based on abundant but still purely circumstantial evidence) 3rd edition, I wouldn't go calling anything over just yet.

[Cronotekk]

Death's ascendence is over

Bel'akor will cause lots of chaos infighting

Order is more factionalized than ever before

All in time for destruction to rise next edition

[Beliman]

5 minutes ago, Cronotekk said:

All in time for destruction to rise next edition

[Sception]

5 hours ago, Cronotekk said:

Death's ascendence is over

Bel'akor will cause lots of chaos infighting

Order is more factionalized than ever before

All in time for destruction to rise next edition

Geeze, I hope so.  So far all signs have pointed to the core narrative focus being on the elves and slaanesh, and while I don't think that's a bad story focus, it's not one that I'm personally invested in at all.  Between the last several years of 40k and all of 1st edition AoS, chaos still just feels kind of overdone as primary antagonists.  On the other hand, a big destruction focus, whether greenskins or otherwise, would feel really fresh and compelling to me, even if I'm not personally likely to start any destruction armies myself.

I'll be fine either way, though.  The undead won't be major core narrative players either way.  To the extent we feature at all, it seems like it'll mostly be doing our own thing off in side stories covering Shyishian infighting - Mannfred vs. Neferata for Soulblight ascendancy, Gravelords and FEC (assuming they're still two separate factions) vs. OBR for control of Shyish.  I still have no idea what Olynder will be up to, which again is somewhat refreshing, and I'm curious to see whether Be'lakor's disruption of chaos will be enough to let Katakros hold onto the death gate even without the power of Nagash and supplies funneling in from a Unified Shyish to back him up.  But even if that plot thread is also cut short, the in fighting and jockeying for power between death factions, with a lot of opportunity for the various mortarchs to show off their individual personalities and ambitions, really does sound compelling to me.  *Especially* if Neferata ends up coming out on top.  After decades of spotty treatment, she really deserves some time to shine, and I'll personally be a bit disappointed if the queen of all vampires and first of their cursed lineage doesn't get pride of place in the new Soulblight book.  Both narratively and mechanically, I want Neferata to be as synonymous with the Soulblight Gravelords as Katakros is with the OBR.  But even if they don't go that way, I'll still be invested regardless.  Heck, even if they flub it completely, that can be entertaining in its own right as rant fodder to pass the time while I wait for Nagash to return and reunify the undead as a major factor in the realms again.  I just hope this time they don't wait so long that that the entire game is ending by the time he shows up.

...

When Nagash does inevitably return, I also hope they write him as learning something and being a bit more... if not humble then at least cautious.  Once upon a time that was part of his narrative.  Before the retcon in the build up to the End Times - that Nagash had returned and been defeated dozens of times, getting weaker each time until he was just a shadow of his former self due to the Fellblade's curse - the lore had previously been that he had been slain and returned only twice - once by alcadizaar, and once by Sigmar.  While the defeat by Alcaadizaar had been an unexpected assassination in a moment of carelessness following the creation of the tomb kings, the defeat by Sigmar in a direct confrontation had taught Nagash a measure of humility, that there were forces in the world that could directly oppose him.  His relative lack of activity after the second return wasn't because he was so much weaker that he couldn't act, but rather because he had been taught caution and was waiting to move openly until he could arrange situations to his favor.  That Nagash would have seen Teclis's insulting but not particularly damaging attack on Shyish as the feint it was and sensed the trap for him in Hysh before blundering into it, especially after the unexpected failure of Arkhan's counter-assault.  That Nagash would have acknowledged the possibility that another deity could best him in a direct confrontation, and would have refused to engage in such a battle unless it was on his own terms.  By comparison, AoS Nagash was doomed the moment Arkhan was out of the picture, because the Mortarch of Sacrament is apparently where Nagash opted to store 98% of his cunning, self control, and situational awareness.

Hopefully the current writers use Nagash's defeat by Teclis the way the old game's writers used his defeat by Sigmar, so that when Nagash does return he does so in a more clever and cautious form.  And while I do want Arkhan back as well, I hope next time around nagash chooses to keep at least some of the brains for himself, instead of portioning them entirely to his side kick.

Edited April 1, 2021 by Sception

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

I'd like it if they went with shattered Nagash for a while. His mental state was already not the most unified before the events of BR: Teclis and I think making his physical form match that would be pretty cool. It would also help us reconcile all the contradictory aspects he has as a god of death. It's a good in-universe explanation to make his warscroll weaker, too, and would make it less jarring if more than one player fields Nagash at once in a game.

[Kaleb Daark]

56 minutes ago, Sception said:

...but rather because he had been taught caution and was waiting to move openly until he could arrange situations to his favor.  That Nagash would have seen Teclis's insulting but not particularly damaging attack on Shyish as the feint it was and sensed the trap for him in Hysh before blundering into it, especially after the unexpected failure of Arkhan's counter-assault.  That Nagash would have acknowledged the possibility that another deity could best him in a direct confrontation, and would have refused to engage in such a battle unless it was on his own terms. 

indeed,  or at the very least after all that's been written about Katakros, if not Nagash, then he'd have seen this coming a mile off.

"...his direct assault is all but guaranteed and this is the way he will do it.  I advise that you put yourself into a vessel and a fraction of your power can do battle with him and finally allow itself to be defeated -  let him think he's killed you... " kind of stuff.

with the Necroquake finished and over, do we think the endless spells will disappear as a result?

[Clan's Cynic]

7 minutes ago, Kaleb Daark said:

with the Necroquake finished and over, do we think the endless spells will disappear as a result?

Not when there's still boxes of plastic to sell.

Edited April 1, 2021 by Clan's Cynic

[Sception]

23 minutes ago, Kaleb Daark said:

with the Necroquake finished and over, do we think the endless spells will disappear as a result?

They won't disappear, but I expect them to change, to no longer be as wild and malicious and uncontrolled.  Specifically, the potential for your opponent to use your own predatory endless spells against you has been very contentious and led to those spells not being used very much in 2nd edition.  The idea was to try to provide a bit of counter balance to the double turn, but it didn't work since the double turn is still just way too strong to balance that way, and because asking you to voluntarily pay points from your army for spells that your opponent then gets to use against you if you get lucky enough for a double turn was always a non-starter.

So I expect we'll see a shift where all endless spells work like the OBR endless spells.  IE, only the casting player gets to control them, but a given wizard can only maintain one at a time, and wizards suffer a penalty to their casting rolls as long as an endless spell they cast is in play.  Narratively this will be justified by the end of the necroquake's effects making endless spells in general harder to maintain but easier to control.

Edited April 1, 2021 by Sception

[NinthMusketeer]

1 hour ago, Sception said:

While the defeat by Alcaadizaar had been an unexpected assassination in a moment of carelessness following the creation of the tomb kings, the defeat by Sigmar in a direct confrontation had taught Nagash a measure of humility, that there were forces in the world that could directly oppose him.  His relative lack of activity after the second return wasn't because he was so much weaker that he couldn't act, but rather because he had been taught caution and was waiting to move openly until he could arrange situations to his favor.  That Nagash would have seen Teclis's insulting but not particularly damaging attack on Shyish as the feint it was and sensed the trap for him in Hysh before blundering into it, especially after the unexpected failure of Arkhan's counter-assault.  That Nagash would have acknowledged the possibility that another deity could best him in a direct confrontation, and would have refused to engage in such a battle unless it was on his own terms.  By comparison, AoS Nagash was doomed the moment Arkhan was out of the picture, because the Mortarch of Sacrament is apparently where Nagash opted to store 98% of his cunning, self control, and situational awareness.

Hopefully the current writers use Nagash's defeat by Teclis the way the old game's writers used his defeat by Sigmar, so that when Nagash does return he does so in a more clever and cautious form.  And while I do want Arkhan back as well, I hope next time around nagash chooses to keep at least some of the brains for himself, instead of portioning them entirely to his side kick.

Nagash DID use caution and patience--that is what the entire plot of the (new) black pyramid and necroquake was all about, that patience paying off. One needs to understand that in Nagash's mind following this he has won. He has taken control of the metaphorical game map and now is just crushing the remaining npc factions. His total control is inevitable. Teclis is just being a whiny sore loser and making things a pain without changing Death's inevitable victory. It is easy to remember humility when one is still humiliated, when one is the most powerful they have been, ever, not so much. For a someone as self-obsessed and arrogant as Nagash writing him with caution here would be incredibly implausible not to mention way out of character. Arkhan gone? Nagash survived the destruction of the entire dam world the death of one mortarch isn't going to phase him! Further, Teclis is a mastermind of planning and coordination. He is also a god with immense intellect and magical power. And he knows Nagash very well. He knows what needs to be done to ****** him off, to goad him into stepping just an inch too far. How many of us have ended up losing a game of AoS after getting a wee bit too reckless when we were winning? Or perhaps a better question; how many of us have not made that mistake multiple times? Yes we aren't ancient immortal gods, but we don't have a reality-swallowing black hole of our own creation to back up our confidence either.

It is also important to note the razor-thin margin of Teclis' victory. The story mentions that had the OBR not turned against FEC in the Flashpoint, one battalion of additional FEC troops would have been there in support and could have made the difference. Not a whole army of dudes, just a Deadwatch (crypt flayer) battalion. But more than that, initially in the battle Nagash seems to have banished Celennar and we learn later that Teclis carefully arranged things to make it seem like that. In actuality Celennar teleports to Settler's Gain and portals in reinforcements. Teclis himself admits that if Nagash had realized Celennar was not actually banished the plan would have failed. That's it, that's the margin of victory. Nagash was a hair's breath away from winning the entire setting.

Not to disrespect or call out you or anyone in particular, but I highly encourage any person interested in AoS fluff and story to read the content themselves or at least read/watch reviews specifically about the lore, before passing judgement. There is a lot of nuance that a community person doing an overall review of a campaign book will not go into.

On one final, poetic note, Mannfred screwed things up for Nagash again. He failed his offensive intentionally XD

Edited April 1, 2021 by NinthMusketeer

[Sception]

1 hour ago, NinthMusketeer said:

On one final, poetic note, Mannfred screwed things up for Nagash again. He failed his offensive intentionally XD

I've heard some folks mad about this.  The same folks that complain about the logic of nagash bringing back mannfred at all, when he seems to ****** over his own side more than the other side in any situation or conflict.  I don't mind so much, as I just think he's funny.  But then again, I always thought starscream was funny in the old transformer cartoon and never got annoyed that the writers had megatron keep him around despite it making literally no sense to do so.  The show/game is just more enjoyable with him there.

[Sception]

1 hour ago, NinthMusketeer said:

Nagash DID use caution and patience--that is what the entire plot of the (new) black pyramid and necroquake was all about, that patience paying off. One needs to understand that in Nagash's mind following this he has won. He has taken control of the metaphorical game map and now is just crushing the remaining npc factions

This is a fair and more favorable reading of his characterization in AoS in general and in teclis in particular, though in my defense 'Arkhan got all the brains' isn't an impression based on Teclis alone, that's kind of been the nature of their characterization since all the way back in the early days of 1st edition AoS.  We've even seen Arkhan directly manipulating Nagash without the big boss even realizing what was going on multiple times.  For instance in the Soul Wars novel, and in the Undying King novel in particular, where Arkhan is pulling literally everyone's strings - Tamra, Neferata, the invading Nurgle daemons, and yeah even Nagash.

My feeling is that somebody over at GW is just a big arkhan fan, which, I mean, fair enough, I am too.  But I'm kind of glad that Arkhan has joined his master in the time out corner.

[sandlemad]

1 hour ago, NinthMusketeer said:

It is also important to note the razor-thin margin of Teclis' victory. The story mentions that had the OBR not turned against FEC in the Flashpoint, one battalion of additional FEC troops would have been there in support and could have made the difference. Not a whole army of dudes, just a Deadwatch (crypt flayer) battalion. But more than that, initially in the battle Nagash seems to have banished Celennar and we learn later that Teclis carefully arranged things to make it seem like that. In actuality Celennar teleports to Settler's Gain and portals in reinforcements. Teclis himself admits that if Nagash had realized Celennar was not actually banished the plan would have failed. That's it, that's the margin of victory. Nagash was a hair's breath away from winning the entire setting.

[...]

On one final, poetic note, Mannfred screwed things up for Nagash again. He failed his offensive intentionally XD

I suppose this is all emphasising the core theme of Broken Realms, isn't it. The fan focus is on Nagash suddenly not being quite as omnipotent over Death as he was perceived to be but the seeds of disunity were already there. The Hyshite FEC of the 'Bright Emperor' being stabbed in the back and used as mobile bone repositories during Arkhan's invasion. A sizeable faction of them under king Varshorn turning on the Ossiarchs.  Mannfred deliberately throwing his campaign in Invidia. Him and Neferata carrying out petty acts of sabotage at each other.

None of this is new but if these are the results, that should emphasise the disharmony in within the nebulous idea of the Grand Alliances nearly as much as BR Morathi.

[NinthMusketeer]

1 hour ago, Sception said:

I've heard some folks mad about this.  The same folks that complain about the logic of nagash bringing back mannfred at all, when he seems to ****** over his own side more than the other side in any situation or conflict.  I don't mind so much, as I just think he's funny.  But then again, I always thought starscream was funny in the old transformer cartoon and never got annoyed that the writers had megatron keep him around despite it making literally no sense to do so.  The show/game is just more enjoyable with him there.

The book actually has a bit in it explaining Nagash's reasoning on bringing him back.

And I will say, it is about net results. On average Mannfred helps Nagash more than hurts. But 'Manny does stuff and takes over things for Death' isn't something we get novels about--that is just business as usual. Besides, Nagash ended up more powerful in the Mortal Realms than he ever was in the Old World, so did Mannfred really ****** Nagash over in the long term? It is an interesting dynamic.

I liked how Soul Wars got into how so much power was cracking Nagash's sanity. It makes out Arkhan to be like a version of Nagash that is so self obsessed, not so arrogant. That it translates to 'smarter' is a pretty realistic causality in my eyes.

[Sception]

It'd be great if that's how Nagash tried to pass it off after he gets back.  Like he rolls back up to the other gods, and they're expecting a big fight, and instead Nagash is like "Sorry about that whole necroquake thing, I was just trying to fix our chaos problem, but those darned skaven messed it all up and tainted the ritual, and that corrupted magic drove me a little murder crazy for a bit there.  It wasn't on purpose, I swear.  Seriously, thanks for snapping me out of it, Teclis!  I know I made a big mess, but I'm all better now, and I hope we can be friends again!"  And the elven gods are just rolling their eyes, but before they can say anything camera pans to Sigmar who's all tearing up, saying "Brother!  I knew that wasn't like you!  Of course we can be friends again, right guys?"

Edited April 1, 2021 by Sception