Jump to content

Discussing balance in AoS


Enoby

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, Ragest said:

I think I have explained this somewhere in this forum but not there.

LrL are going to stomp every low bravery or slow armies, like, every of them. Is made for that (at leas the BIG list). But, as LrL player, I can tell you some stories about the opposite. 
 

I lose in 1 turn vs Tzeentch, Kharadron or Seraphon, even Slaneesh makes me cry with the alpha-pile in 6” strategy.

The game is now rock-paper-machinegun.

Rocks are low tier armies, they lose vs every other armies and really hard. Khorne is there. Paper wins pretty easy vs rocks, most of paper armies can do it without thinking so much os making tons of mistakes, mostly because the disgusting damage they can put in 1 turn.

And then, the machineguns. They crush everyone.

That's our current situation. You want to try khorne vs lumineth? You are going to lose 9/10 times. You want to try lumineth vs Kharadron? The same. The balance is so broken that matches are now boring at the most, finished in one turn, or one double turn, filled with crazy strategies (Dr, tp, you can’t see me, free spells, you can’t hide) that have 0 counterplay, most of them without wasting any resource and can change matches alone.

Which all changes of course, against a skaven army with at least 1 Doomwheel.

At this point the rating goes from 9\10 times of loosing  to uncertainty.

or can not be determined.

the Doomwheel may not break the game, but it breaks the laws of certainty😂

Edited by Skreech Verminking
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Ragest said:

I think I have explained this somewhere in this forum but not there.

LrL are going to stomp every low bravery or slow armies, like, every of them. Is made for that (at leas the BIG list). But, as LrL player, I can tell you some stories about the opposite. 
 

I lose in 1 turn vs Tzeentch, Kharadron or Seraphon, even Slaneesh makes me cry with the alpha-pile in 6” strategy.

The game is now rock-paper-machinegun.

Rocks are low tier armies, they lose vs every other armies and really hard. Khorne is there. Paper wins pretty easy vs rocks, most of paper armies can do it without thinking so much os making tons of mistakes, mostly because the disgusting damage they can put in 1 turn.

And then, the machineguns. They crush everyone.

That's our current situation. You want to try khorne vs lumineth? You are going to lose 9/10 times. You want to try lumineth vs Kharadron? The same. The balance is so broken that matches are now boring at the most, finished in one turn, or one double turn, filled with crazy strategies (Dr, tp, you can’t see me, free spells, you can’t hide) that have 0 counterplay, most of them without wasting any resource and can change matches alone.

Yeah mate. you described it really well here.

Getting stomped by an army that is strong against your armies particular skill set is fine. But the opportunity to at least play the game would be nice. to have half your army literally dead or flee to battleshock before you even have a turn is a horrible feeling and just makes the game no fun from the get go.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, Sharklone said:

Thanks man. I really like the models haha..

I get what your saying with there being a disparity in the power of the lists. And I don't expect to win against the top tier armies with this list. But...

In terms of balance. Is the list that bad that I lose before I even have a turn?? Looking at the options in khorne, outside of potentially one specific build that I need amazing luck to pull off ( reapers of vengeance artefact on a wrath of khorne thirster).. I can't even see a list where I get to use my models. All the heroes my army relies on are dead turn 1 before I go if the lumineth player so wishes and I lose a significant amount to bravery. All from spells that can't fail and I can't unbind, then anything that survives is murdered by bows I don't even get to roll a save for or am able to hide from. 

From a balance point of view. That seems outrageous. I surprised myself by winning against a fairly competitive shooty DoK snake list and that was a fun game for both of us. Lots of dice roll fun. I won cause of good dice rolls. I'm sure if we rolled the same he would have beaten me, but at least I would have been able to play the game

 

 

The short answer is yes your list is that bad. Even the most basic fat middle list is stronger than this. AoS is about combining warscrolls and battle traits so that units are more powerful than the base abilities on their warscroll.

This list would have been meh in the first GHB almost 4 years ago. My suggestion if you haven't already is to pop into the Chaos forum and read through the Khorne thread, so you can get a good understanding of the underlying synergies available to your faction. Khorne are not great but they do have some competitive strats. 

If you're regular opponent plays LRL I might recommend Chaos Chariots, Chaos Knights and Warshrines. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

The short answer is yes your list is that bad. Even the most basic fat middle list is stronger than this. AoS is about combining warscrolls and battle traits so that units are more powerful than the base abilities on their warscroll.

This list would have been meh in the first GHB almost 4 years ago. My suggestion if you haven't already is to pop into the Chaos forum and read through the Khorne thread, so you can get a good understanding of the underlying synergies available to your faction. Khorne are not great but they do have some competitive strats. 

If you're regular opponent plays LRL I might recommend Chaos Chariots, Chaos Knights and Warshrines. 

I understand what you are saying. But I didn't even have a turn. I could have had the best list possible and my secrator and priests, arguably the best units we have, included in alot of competitive lists, particularly the priests, are dead before I get to do a single thing with them, with no way to protect them. So you are saying the only option I have is to build a list that is specifically tailored to fighting lumineth? Doesn't that seem to suggest that the game is not balanced?

Edited by Sharklone
  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The design of LRL is very bizarre from a rules standpoint, to the degree where they honestly feel like they've been designed for a completely different game.

In a lot of ways this is why I've been drawn to the army, because AoS is often lacking in a lot of mechnical complexity or depth in my opinion, and LRL's frankly absurd amount of mechanics, interactions and the way it echoes old WHFB in playstyle really appeals to me.

But at the same time it makes the army stick out like a sore thumb and further highlights the inconsistent approach the AOS team has to designing battletomes. Just look at HoS, DoK and LRL; all came out within months of each other and all 3 books have completely different design ethos' and goals where there hasn't seemed to be any communication between the teams. HoS are lacking much flavour or raw power, DoK are raw power with little depth and LRL are drowning in fluffy rules to the point where it feels suffocating. (and while I don't think Hurakan models are OP or anything, I do feel bad for Slaanesh players seeing those rules and then seeing their own cavalry's completely bland warscrolls and army rules)

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Sharklone said:

I understand what you are saying. But I didn't even have a turn. I could have had the best list possible and my secrator and priests, arguably the best units we have, included in alot of competitive lists, particularly the priests, are dead before I get to do a single thing with them. So you are saying the only option I have is to build a list that is specifically tailored to fighting lumineth? Doesn't that seem to suggest that the game is not balanced?

Whispersofblood is a Lumineth player that doesn't understand people playing the game for fun, coming off as quite a WAAC player. Best to disregard.

Yes. Balance is bad. Probably not going to become good, but it can at least be better. I'd suggest other wargames where writers are more competent.

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, Sharklone said:

I understand what you are saying. But I didn't even have a turn. I could have had the best list possible and my secrator and priests, arguably the best units we have, included in alot of competitive lists, particularly the priests, are dead before I get to do a single thing with them. So you are saying the only option I have is to build a list that is specifically tailored to fighting lumineth? Doesn't that seem to suggest that the game is not balanced?

Games are a series of questions each player is asking each other.

Your lists presents very little early game pressure which means any army with shooting can leisurely shoot off the limited complements of your army which might present a problem if left unchecked. 

You want to include units that interact with the LRL rules, but I wouldn't suggest you buy/build/paint otherwise useless units. 

Single chariots are good pinning units, cheap fast and tough. They also don't take battleshock which negates one of your opponent's greatest weapons.

Knights are resistant to MW, fast and therefore must be addressed early taking more pressure off your heroes. 10 Chaos Knights are actually a big problem for LRL as they don't really have high spike dmg and rely and chipping away at units which isn't a good strategy against Chaos Knights.

Other units you can look into are Chaos Furies, and Marauder horsemen. Blood reavers are a good battleline unit cheap with rend. I generally would avoid expensive single models though like bloodthirsters. But, if you are open to allies a Great Unclean One or Rotigus might be good for you. 

Last I'd ask your friend such as he is to maybe take it easy a bit. He's playing a highly tuned netlist and a simple conversation might go some way to making games more enjoyable. But, that includes you taking steps to close the gap on your end as well.

Dealing with emotional transferance can be difficult but my general suggestion is focus down a unit, don't damage a few units. Focus on removing units in one turn via doing dmg across a bunch of phase. Pin units you don't want to fight yet with chariots or cheap Blood warrior units. 

25 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

Whispersofblood is a Lumineth player that doesn't understand people playing the game for fun, coming off as quite a WAAC player. Best to disregard.

Yes. Balance is bad. Probably not going to become good, but it can at least be better. I'd suggest other wargames where writers are more competent.

Mate I have to be honest. I'm a bit tired of seeing you on the forum. By your own admission you don't play the game. Have no valuable insight or experince beyound recycled garbage you can't explain the logic of. And, when a player is here asking for help your contribution is to slag off another poster who may actually have something useful to say 

I play and have played many armies across multie editions of AoS and WHFB including Khorne more than once, a resume a person of your... anyway if you need validation go find yourself a romantic partner. Doesn't Frostgrave have a forum you can troll?

Edited by whispersofblood
  • Like 3
  • Sad 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Sharklone As some pointed out, your opponent played probably the best LRL tournament list that doesn't include the new models. You would likely have had the same problem against many books like Seraphon, Tzeentch, KO etc. 

If  it's someone you play regularly and you guys are playing more for fun than for tournament training - you might talk to him about changing the list a bit - no Teclis, or less Sentinels should do the trick. With the new models it's now also much easier to do. 

It's a bit weird to single out Lumineth - at least so far they haven't been on the top of the meta. Here is one list, there are many more, which all show the same thing, LRL are good, but by far the strongest army so far. https://aoslistbot.herokuapp.com/sotm/

1682553483_ScreenShot2021-04-13at15_33_09.png.3de4d54727800bc64f6f8819fa530d16.png

There are several other similar list (in-person games, as well as TTS, which all largely show the same). 

 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, LuminethMage said:

@Sharklone As some pointed out, your opponent played probably the best LRL tournament list that doesn't include the new models. You would likely have had the same problem against many books like Seraphon, Tzeentch, KO etc. 

If  it's someone you play regularly and you guys are playing more for fun than for tournament training - you might talk to him about changing the list a bit - no Teclis, or less Sentinels should do the trick. With the new models it's now also much easier to do. 

It's a bit weird to single out Lumineth - at least so far they haven't been on the top of the meta. Here is one list, there are many more, which all show the same thing, LRL are good, but by far the strongest army so far. https://aoslistbot.herokuapp.com/sotm/

There are several other similar list (in-person games, as well as TTS, which all largely show the same). 

 

Oh definitely not trying to single lumineth out that was just the experience I had. I'm sure Lumineth has its own struggles against certain armies or the hero sniping isn't as effective which is probably why its not at the top of the meta.  

I get the idea of talking to him about not using those units, but that feels ******, poor dude loves lumineth and Teclis, and now hes stomped a few of our little gaming group with the list he doesn't get to play the models anymore. I play OBR and often get the same thing with people saying they don't want to play them, and it is a real ****** feeling after the money and time spent on the models. They basically come out for competitive stuff and stay tucked on the shelf for anything else

@whispersofblood thanks for the advice I will look into it. It just seems unfortunate that the best way to play khorne is... to not play khorne and use S2D models instead. I'm sure its not just khorne that struggles with this. I suspect any army that has a reliance on small 5-6 wound heroes or is weak to bravery shenanigans would be in the same situation.

Anyways, I didn't want to turn this into a lumineth bashing thread, just wanted to share my experience of balance. Back to your regularly scheduled programming people.

 

 

  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Sharklone said:

 

@whispersofblood thanks for the advice I will look into it. It just seems unfortunate that the best way to play khorne is... to not play khorne and use S2D models instead. I'm sure its not just khorne that struggles with this. I suspect any army that has a reliance on small 5-6 wound heroes or is weak to bravery shenanigans would be in the same situation.

Anyways, I didn't want to turn this into a lumineth bashing thread, just wanted to share my experience of balance. Back to your regularly scheduled programming people.

 

 

It's more to do with the constant transient of the game. For a long time small heroes were essentially invulnerable we are in a space where that isn't true and like any change people are uncomfortable with it. 

Slaves to Darkness and the 4 God books have some tension between what is and isn't those factions. But, imo it's better to look at all the warscrolls you can use in your book. Khorne is actually the most flexible in this regard when it comes to keywords. 

Also I suggest having a look at Wrath of the Everchosen for the extra subfactions and see if either get your creative juices going. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, Sharklone said:

Oh definitely not trying to single lumineth out that was just the experience I had. I'm sure Lumineth has its own struggles against certain armies or the hero sniping isn't as effective which is probably why its not at the top of the meta.  

I get the idea of talking to him about not using those units, but that feels ******, poor dude loves lumineth and Teclis, and now hes stomped a few of our little gaming group with the list he doesn't get to play the models anymore. I play OBR and often get the same thing with people saying they don't want to play them, and it is a real ****** feeling after the money and time spent on the models. They basically come out for competitive stuff and stay tucked on the shelf for anything else

@whispersofblood thanks for the advice I will look into it. It just seems unfortunate that the best way to play khorne is... to not play khorne and use S2D models instead. I'm sure its not just khorne that struggles with this. I suspect any army that has a reliance on small 5-6 wound heroes or is weak to bravery shenanigans would be in the same situation.

Anyways, I didn't want to turn this into a lumineth bashing thread, just wanted to share my experience of balance. Back to your regularly scheduled programming people.

 

 

Sorry, it's more about the general situation, if you look at the other posts, concerning the LRL part : ).

I also love to play with my toys and have Teclis. He is really fun to play because of being such a great tool box. But, I think - if your friend has the models - they also would like to have more open games, and Lumineth are also fun to play without Teclis or a lot of Sentinels. I had a match against CoS last time - where we had a bit of a similar problem (not as one-sided as your game by any means though), so next match against the same person, I'll make a list with a lot of the Mountain guys and Eltharion as its core, no Teclis, not much shooting. Depends of course on your friend having an alternative. 

Hopefully the really low performing armies get a look at during Broken Realms. I'm not sure why they started with Idoneth, DoK, Lumineth and maybe Seraphon and KO next. 😅

Anyway, I hope you find a good solution. You could use your OBR : ) 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, LuminethMage said:

It's a bit weird to single out Lumineth - at least so far they haven't been on the top of the meta. Here is one list, there are many more, which all show the same thing, LRL are good, but by far the strongest army so far. https://aoslistbot.herokuapp.com/sotm/

 

I dont think it is weird at all - LRL creates such super polarized games with their amount of core rules breaking abilities. It doesnt matter if it "only" sits at 51% according to ListBot. The faction creates honestly terrible games/matchups. Even if you only win every second game, almost every game vs LRL is a "feels bad" moment. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, Joseph Mackay said:

This. Lumineth aren’t powerful. They’re the ultimate ‘gatekeeper’ army, they mess with everyone rather than just a specific thing. Your top tier op net list that wins tournaments? Yeah you’ll still win, but you’re damn sure going to have to work for it now instead of (generally) being ‘point and click’

Lumineth were roughly the third most performing army after seraphon and IDK before their new stuff dropped.

 

19 hours ago, Ragest said:

I think I have explained this somewhere in this forum but not there.

LrL are going to stomp every low bravery or slow armies, like, every of them. Is made for that (at leas the BIG list). But, as LrL player, I can tell you some stories about the opposite. 
 

I lose in 1 turn vs Tzeentch, Kharadron or Seraphon, even Slaneesh makes me cry with the alpha-pile in 6” strategy.

The game is now rock-paper-machinegun.

Rocks are low tier armies, they lose vs every other armies and really hard. Khorne is there. Paper wins pretty easy vs rocks, most of paper armies can do it without thinking so much os making tons of mistakes, mostly because the disgusting damage they can put in 1 turn.

And then, the machineguns. They crush everyone.

That's our current situation. You want to try khorne vs lumineth? You are going to lose 9/10 times. You want to try lumineth vs Kharadron? The same. The balance is so broken that matches are now boring at the most, finished in one turn, or one double turn, filled with crazy strategies (Dr, tp, you can’t see me, free spells, you can’t hide) that have 0 counterplay, most of them without wasting any resource and can change matches alone.

If you are losing that often against KO....

 

You just aren't very good, or you are taking a not competitive list into the big Ko competitive alpha drop one.

 

The math for Ko beating LRL is very even, because KO need to win their first turn or they lose, but you are going to be attempting to either kill a 2 plus save teclis (if teclis isn't getting a two plus save, then things shift a bit), or minus one to hit other units, and if you fail to manage enough of that, KO just lose, Their entire army is exposed to the retaliation, and LRL will wipe the KO hard.

 

One thing to learn playing against KO is don't bunch together. Really, I know LRL have their aura stuff going and like being compact, but until the the alpha drops, the more you bunch together the more the best damaging utility a KO alpha has can do. Eg the WLV.  If the WLV can hit 4 or 5 units including a character or two, you gonna have a rough day. If GW ever takes the WLV away, things gonna get rough for KO in this matchup. And use your nine inches (eg you can leave 9 inch gaps tween units and KO can't drop into that) to zone out KO from targeting your better units (like teclis, this is the major wincon, kill teclis or not. So don't make it easy. There's a lot of damage you can zone out, notably all sources of mortals, and KO taking a shot at teclis and FAILING is game over for them). LRL is one of the armies that ranges well enough themselves that KO can't really afford to hug the corners and delay the drop, cause the second sentinels get in range, the battleplan falls apart when your WLV chucker gets arrowed.

 

In either case the game is usually decided by turn two.

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, LuminethMage said:

@Sharklone As some pointed out, your opponent played probably the best LRL tournament list that doesn't include the new models. You would likely have had the same problem against many books like Seraphon, Tzeentch, KO etc. 

If  it's someone you play regularly and you guys are playing more for fun than for tournament training - you might talk to him about changing the list a bit - no Teclis, or less Sentinels should do the trick. With the new models it's now also much easier to do. 

It's a bit weird to single out Lumineth - at least so far they haven't been on the top of the meta. Here is one list, there are many more, which all show the same thing, LRL are good, but by far the strongest army so far. https://aoslistbot.herokuapp.com/sotm/

1682553483_ScreenShot2021-04-13at15_33_09.png.3de4d54727800bc64f6f8819fa530d16.png

There are several other similar list (in-person games, as well as TTS, which all largely show the same). 

 

 

You're looking at the wrong stats, and the timeline is too extended, there's like 5 months where lumineth literally didn't have the models to play competitive, and in the remaining period they still wracked up 11 tournament wins, while all these other factions were available the entire time.  Indeed they had more wins then anyone but seraphon (the king of the meta) and DoT

DoT were, earlier, like so brutally overpowered they were essentially unbeatable by anyone, and GW had to emergency nerf them a couple times to leave them merely normally overpowered instead of essentially unbeatable. I'd love to see this corrected to post tzeentch nerf to see where they stand, which I imagine is still pretty good.

 

Also, like,  this isn't taking out the outliers like the legion of grief or hedonites there and you are trying to be misleading by pointing only to winrates, which is only part of determining a faction's strength. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, stratigo said:

 

You're looking at the wrong stats, and the timeline is too extended, there's like 5 months where lumineth literally didn't have the models to play competitive, and in the remaining period they still wracked up 11 tournament wins, while all these other factions were available the entire time.  Indeed they had more wins then anyone but seraphon (the king of the meta) and DoT

DoT were, earlier, like so brutally overpowered they were essentially unbeatable by anyone, and GW had to emergency nerf them a couple times to leave them merely normally overpowered instead of essentially unbeatable. I'd love to see this corrected to post tzeentch nerf to see where they stand, which I imagine is still pretty good.

 

Also, like,  this isn't taking out the outliers like the legion of grief or hedonites there and you are trying to be misleading by pointing only to winrates, which is only part of determining a faction's strength. 

The problem with all these stats is there isn't a unifying statistic for "competitiveness". There isn't a way to use the available stats to deal with a single player placing top 3 with various factions, let alone builds, and strength of competition. 

The stats as they are can only ever be a guide in this regard. But I agree windows or seasons are necessary for analysis. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, stratigo said:

Lumineth were roughly the third most performing army after seraphon and IDK before their new stuff dropped.

 

If you are losing that often against KO....

 

You just aren't very good, or you are taking a not competitive list into the big Ko competitive alpha drop one.

 

The math for Ko beating LRL is very even, because KO need to win their first turn or they lose, but you are going to be attempting to either kill a 2 plus save teclis (if teclis isn't getting a two plus save, then things shift a bit), or minus one to hit other units, and if you fail to manage enough of that, KO just lose, Their entire army is exposed to the retaliation, and LRL will wipe the KO hard.

 

One thing to learn playing against KO is don't bunch together. Really, I know LRL have their aura stuff going and like being compact, but until the the alpha drops, the more you bunch together the more the best damaging utility a KO alpha has can do. Eg the WLV.  If the WLV can hit 4 or 5 units including a character or two, you gonna have a rough day. If GW ever takes the WLV away, things gonna get rough for KO in this matchup. And use your nine inches (eg you can leave 9 inch gaps tween units and KO can't drop into that) to zone out KO from targeting your better units (like teclis, this is the major wincon, kill teclis or not. So don't make it easy. There's a lot of damage you can zone out, notably all sources of mortals, and KO taking a shot at teclis and FAILING is game over for them). LRL is one of the armies that ranges well enough themselves that KO can't really afford to hug the corners and delay the drop, cause the second sentinels get in range, the battleplan falls apart when your WLV chucker gets arrowed.

 

In either case the game is usually decided by turn two.

 

 

 

 

The biggest problem is that teclis can’t make his aura to ignore the free vortex. I have spell in a bottle, is just unbalanced and full of exploits.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

The problem with all these stats is there isn't a unifying statistic for "competitiveness". There isn't a way to use the available stats to deal with a single player placing top 3 with various factions, let alone builds, and strength of competition. 

The stats as they are can only ever be a guide in this regard. But I agree windows or seasons are necessary for analysis. 

There are ways to better analyze it.

 

It is an endless frustration for me that AoS lacks, well, its own 40kstatcenter. THO does good work, but they don't go as hard into the numbers as 40kstats does, which makes looking at 40k balance actually really quite easy.

 

3 minutes ago, Ragest said:

The biggest problem is that teclis can’t make his aura to ignore the free vortex. I have spell in a bottle, is just unbalanced and full of exploits.

The WLV is the one tool KO have to make this match actually a match. Without it, KO are gonna struggle to do damage into all the defenses Lumineth trivially get even going second. And, knowing that, deploy to minimize its impact.

 

I think one of the issues is that deploying into a KO alpha strike is just different and more meticulous than deploying into any other army in the game, and KO will punish any deployment mistakes hard. You can't set up to maxmimize your auras for turn 2 and one, KO will punish you. You can't set up just trying to screen melee alphas, KO will punish you. You need to make the most of 9 inch gaps, and make sure your key pieces are spread and can't get multiples caught in the WLV. Preventing a WLV tic on teclis, then avoiding being grudgebombed, then perhaps even zoning out KO 12 inch firepower (if they went thunderers) or charges (if they went heavy baloons) means teclis should live easily, and you are already in a good position. An alpha drop is super vulnerable to Teclis' nuke (You'll hit like 5/6 units, no joke), and KO units are really vulnerable, especially to mortal wounds. So, if you prevent teclis from being targeted by a good chunk of KO firepower, you can use your defensive quartz spends on other units to keep them alive. 

 

Now, you are probably just going to lose the cathallar no matter what you do. But, iunno, turnabout's fair play I guess XD

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, stratigo said:

 

You're looking at the wrong stats, and the timeline is too extended, there's like 5 months where lumineth literally didn't have the models to play competitive, and in the remaining period they still wracked up 11 tournament wins, while all these other factions were available the entire time.  Indeed they had more wins then anyone but seraphon (the king of the meta) and DoT

DoT were, earlier, like so brutally overpowered they were essentially unbeatable by anyone, and GW had to emergency nerf them a couple times to leave them merely normally overpowered instead of essentially unbeatable. I'd love to see this corrected to post tzeentch nerf to see where they stand, which I imagine is still pretty good.

 

Also, like,  this isn't taking out the outliers like the legion of grief or hedonites there and you are trying to be misleading by pointing only to winrates, which is only part of determining a faction's strength. 

Don’t like those stats? Here is one with tournament wins: 

B4ABD5F2-2917-47C3-A47F-B0D779F49DDD.png
These are from AOShorts. 

Not seeing the Lumineth winning more than anyone else besides Seraphon. Which ones are you looking at? 

TTS, the last one I saw from THW, they also were just good, but not outstanding, although the second most played faction at that time. That was a month or two ago though, there might be newer numbers which I haven’t looked at. I’m not following TTS that much.

I’m not trying to be misleading at all. I mentioned other stats, and have shown tournament win rates before in other threads. I also think that people are smart enough to see that Legion of Grief is an outlier looking at how many people play it. 

I’m not saying the LRL are bad by any means. But, so far where is the data showing them dominating the scene? 

Also the stats aren’t perfect, but they are still better than people just saying faction a or b is OP. 

Edited by LuminethMage
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, LuminethMage said:

Don’t like the stats? Here is the one with tournament wins: 

B4ABD5F2-2917-47C3-A47F-B0D779F49DDD.png

And how exhaustive is this list?

 

Look, you aren't using datasets very well. I can use this graph to argue "Well seraphon isn't that overpowered really". And that'd be ridiculous.

 

Where are you sourcing your data? Honestly it's not looking like you have done your due diligence in statistics. Maybe to argue against needed nerfs for your faction? Indeed it looks like AoSshorts format, but, I can't find this dataset on their website at all. Their last one ends in September far as I can find. Did you do it yourself? I'd like to see some analysis behind this dataset if it exists.

 

Now, it does annoy me somewhat that THO doesn't regularly leave their stats in writing where I can find it, leaving them mostly in video format, and thus not easily linkable, but they do good stats.  Their most recent stats video is promising something big for stat in the future, so here's hoping. Ultimately though, going with their regular analysis, LRL are easily in the top 5 of armies. I place them number 3, after seraphon and IDK. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Seraphon\idoneth\tzenth

Lumineth\kharadron\dok\any chaos army with archaon

 

To me these are the top armys,first tiers are the 100% in need to hotfix(huge nerfs in points as 100+ to kroak or the turtle) his points,and second  list need change in his rules.

As sentinels changed to wound roll the mortals,kharadrons cant use faction specific endless spells,dok cant use the ca to attack twice with shooting units(and snakes changed the moratals to wound rolls) and archaon need something to stop this ****** of spam infinite buffs on a unit that can win a game he alone

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, Doko said:

Seraphon\idoneth\tzenth

Lumineth\kharadron\dok\any chaos army with archaon

 

To me these are the top armys,first tiers are the 100% in need to hotfix(huge nerfs in points as 100+ to kroak or the turtle) his points,and second  list need change in his rules.

As sentinels changed to wound roll the mortals,kharadrons cant use faction specific endless spells,dok cant use the ca to attack twice with shooting units(and snakes changed the moratals to wound rolls) and archaon need something to stop this ****** of spam infinite buffs on a unit that can win a game he alone

Kroak is getting an entirely new model and warscroll, so guess they just held off on that, knowing he was going to change. I will guess he is going to be a completely different beast to the regular Slann now, instead of just a no brainer upgrade of the same thing, probably putting him somewhere in the Teclis ballpark perhaps. Seraphon is dropping a bit otherwise, but only due to the other big contenders, their power is a very fine balance right now and a single change could blow them up, such as a change to the skink priest MW buff. Nobody complains about Saurus ;) 

In general there are way too many archers with mortal wound output now, seems it is the new hotness that the "good" tomes need, easy access to high volume mortal wound firepower.

Regarding Archaon GW has put balancing in a hard place with a 800 pts model that can fit into many different allegiances, that is bound to create problems. I feel he is very well balanced in the StD book and the legion designed specifically for him, notice how all competitive builds do not use the book where he is on the cover...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

Kroak is getting an entirely new model and warscroll, so guess they just held off on that, knowing he was going to change. I will guess he is going to be a completely different beast to the regular Slann now, instead of just a no brainer upgrade of the same thing, probably putting him somewhere in the Teclis ballpark perhaps. Seraphon is dropping a bit otherwise, but only due to the other big contenders, their power is a very fine balance right now and a single change could blow them up, such as a change to the skink priest MW buff. Nobody complains about Saurus ;) 

In general there are way too many archers with mortal wound output now, seems it is the new hotness that the "good" tomes need, easy access to high volume mortal wound firepower.

Regarding Archaon GW has put balancing in a hard place with a 800 pts model that can fit into many different allegiances, that is bound to create problems. I feel he is very well balanced in the StD book and the legion designed specifically for him, notice how all competitive builds do not use the book where he is on the cover...

Seraphon as like 80 percent excellent and no one change is going to do a darn thing.

No one complains about saurus. Yet. Because skinks are better. Take away the skinks, saurus are still excellent and can be built around for competition. 

 

Seraphons are great top to bottom. It is really up to LRL's new command ability disabling spell to shift their place in the meta, since seraphon rely on their command abilities in almost any build you can do.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd like to get into the discussion with ( maybe ) a very different point of view, since I am a TO in my town, wich has 42 active AoS players, where about 20 come to my tournaments on a regular basis.

But before I am going into detail, I would please you to read all the 3 parts of this interview:

https://www.goonhammer.com/the-goonhammer-interview-with-james-hewitt-part-1-age-of-sigmar-and-40k/




 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, Battlefury said:

I'd like to get into the discussion with ( maybe ) a very different point of view, since I am a TO in my town, wich has 42 active AoS players, where about 20 come to my tournaments on a regular basis.

But before I am going into detail, I would please you to read all the 3 parts of this interview:

https://www.goonhammer.com/the-goonhammer-interview-with-james-hewitt-part-1-age-of-sigmar-and-40k/




 

I mean,  yeah, GW corporate cares not super much about balance except in how is moves product.

 

I bet most of the people on this forum has read this article.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry, that I had to seperate my post into 2 parts here, but the text wanted to be underlined, after I posted the link, wich I could not get rid off.

I would like to start with things, that I watch / observed as a TO ( and I do not play on my own events  )

1: It is likely always the new army, that wins
2: It is very likely always the same list, that wins ( with a few expetions, where armies win, no matter what list they brought )
3: Players REFUSE to play vs certain armies entirely and drop the game at the very beginning
4: "Veteran" players, who started in Edition 1 of AoS, do not play anymore ( except 1 )

And what is the absolute most important point:

5: Experienced players and I do bet on the winners, just based on the list ( predictions are correct in 9 of 10 events, regarding the top 3 )

What is my conclusion as the organiser? The game balance is outright bad. People do not complain very much, but some players talk to me and share their thoughts. Some of them want to have restrictions on the amount of units ( rule of 3 as an example ). Some want specific factions to be banned. Others want specific lists to be banned. I can't blame the players for what they experience.

And now the surpise:

It is 100% the same in casual and narrative games. Some armies take their worst units in casual games, but they still win with a big advantage.



I played Blades of Khorne since the beginning of AoS, since the very first release. Certainly, I won't need to share my experience here, and why I lost almost every game in the almost 6 years of AoS. But let me tell you, that I invested a lot of money, to keep my army on competetive standards and therefore changed them a lot. I had 7000 points of BoK on my shelf. Do the maths you own, what the army as worth. So what where my feelings, after each chance got errated of FAQ'd? You clearly coulnd't imagine the outrage I had on the game and the battle tomes. After spending the time, work & money on the army, it was just a waste.

When you read the interview, you will see some important things, that will answer the question, whether it is balanced, or it will ever be balanced. And the simple answer is: No.

Why is that? Because GW uses the Battle Tomes as their very important marketing tool to dictate the meta. Units, that have good warscrolls, will be expensive to a certain point. That's also why their keep rolling in new armies, because they are stronger than those before, and people will keep buying it. And to be honest, there are a lot of people out there, who will complain about the game, but still buy all the stuff from GW. And GW knows that.
And even IF a new edition comes ( wich I absolutely doubt ), it will start over again. "Rebalance" = new meta = $$$, that's why there are edition changes. And yes, the game will be more balanced in the beginning. But to be honest, we all know that each edition had their zenith and went absurd after that.

Can AoS be balanced? Absolutely. It will not be perfect, wich it doesn't have to be. But there should be a middle ground, that is around a 50% win rate, where each army should gather around on a range of 45% to 55%. And that is possible. But therefore GW would have to playtest, what they do not in they way it has to be. Asking the top 5 players of tournaments for their experience in the event is not playtesting.
Having literally 2 guys writing the tomes is not enough. Mr Jervis Johnson is certainly more experienced than Mr Sam Pearson when it comes to rules. You can determine the worth of an army by finding out, who wrote the book.

I could go on with facts, why GW will not balance the game, but I guess you understand my points. Make sure to read the interview, it is abolutely worth reading.

How could AoS be balanced IMO:

1. Take strength / resistance values like in 40k ( because, why can a little skaven rat wound a heavy armoured Blood Thirster in melee with the same chance as Spirit of Durthu? ) Just an example here.
2. Redesign the Warscrolls & books from old armies ( more than 1 year old )
3. Calculate the point cost a new
4.  Actually test he rules in a representable way by releasing beta rules and gather data from those results ( communities are more than likely willing to help with that )

The situation is metaphorical like:

A guy wants tome people to fight. He gives 1 a sword, another got a fork, the 3rd got a spoon and another comes with his toothpick collection. They start to fight each other and recognize, that is absolutely unfair. Until that guy with the gun came to the fight.

All armies should at least have tools, that will keep them on a realistic chance to win a game, no matter who they play against. Ever.
That's why Warhammer Underworlds is better in a way. It still has power tiers, but the non specific cards give all the factions tool for their warbands. I do not mean, that GW should design AoS like Underworlds, but they shall understand the principle and adapt this to the game.

I would like to encourage players, to vote with their wallets and treat GW just like every other manufacturer of miniatures. If you like stuff and the price is worth your attention, go for it. But if it is not either way, just don't.

We should really start to redesign the tomes ourselves. At least for those, willing to balance stuff.

Thanks to @NinthMusketeer, @Charleston, and all of you, who see the problems in the game, and can reflect them not biased, we can make it better on our own.
 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...