Discussing balance in AoS

[NinthMusketeer]

They also increased a number of point costs and faq'd khemists to not stack.

[stratigo]

Right Khemist stacking. That was pretty nuts, though I imagine it ran into diminishing returns eventually.

 

I started KO pretty much immediately after the nerf. They also nerfed drill cannon damage, which was a bit much on top of all the other nerfs. KO tends to get whapped really hard, harder than other armies, when they are nerfed. Struck me as KO not oplaying the way the designers imagined (Less boats, more bodies), as opposed to now where boats are way more central than they were. Though you can still get away with a strong one clad drop list, so that might get a nerf. They still need to give frigates something to make them a good choice though.

[Joseph Mackay]

4 hours ago, NinthMusketeer said:

They also increased a number of point costs and faq'd khemists to not stack.

Most things don’t stack though? And anything that does probably shouldn’t anyway (Gaveriels command ability, Volturnos/Akhelian King command ability etc) That’s like the people complaining DOK were ‘nerfed’ because all their abilities changed to ‘wholly within’ - yeah just like every other army in the game lol it was obviously going to happen

i have no sympathy over points costs as shooting units in general are way undercosted 

[Beliman]

11 hours ago, stratigo said:

the 24 skyhooks never made a huge impression on the meta. And, playing with them, they weren't as good as you'd think. There's a limit to what you could do with them.

 

It was thunderers that were the most OP thikng, that they nerfed almost immediately cause it was dumb and unintended.

I didn't use Thunderers as example because GW  nerfed them really fast (some FAQs and GHB).

But my point wasn't about power-level or how good they were, my point was that we already had "out of the box" warscrolls at that time.

Use good ol'thunderers as an example if you want, the point is still the same.

Edited April 11, 2021 by Beliman

[stratigo]

6 hours ago, Joseph Mackay said:

Most things don’t stack though? And anything that does probably shouldn’t anyway (Gaveriels command ability, Volturnos/Akhelian King command ability etc) That’s like the people complaining DOK were ‘nerfed’ because all their abilities changed to ‘wholly within’ - yeah just like every other army in the game lol it was obviously going to happen

i have no sympathy over points costs as shooting units in general are way undercosted 

Ko became, at that point, mostly a melee alpha strike with one or two big deathstar rigger squads that dropped in, used a hook for mobility, and mulched most things in the game on a charge. So, uh, it literally wasn't any better. KO played pretty damn similar then as to now except their punch was a buffed melee unit supplemented with shooting instead of the other way around.

[dekay]

14 hours ago, stratigo said:

the 24 skyhooks never made a huge impression on the meta. And, playing with them, they weren't as good as you'd think. There's a limit to what you could do with them.

They did in some sense, but only after CoS came out - option to give those skyhooks easy +1 to hit/wound, extra move, run and shoot and battleshock immunity, together with cheep screens, made them temporarily into the most ridiculous Cities build. Meta impact wasn't huge because for many reasons CoS are a fascinating aberration when it comes to meta and competitiveness in general, but locally, wherever this list popped up, others were forced to plan for it.

[Chaos Shepard]

12 hours ago, stratigo said:

Right Khemist stacking. That was pretty nuts, though I imagine it ran into diminishing returns eventually.

Quite the opposite actually. Since the Khemist would be cheaper than the guns you would be giving extra shots to, the more Khemist you had the great the return on your points investment.

[Sharklone]

Was looking for a Balance thread and found one!

I played a game against LRL with my mortal Khorne list. And I fully understand that some armies counter other armies. That's fine. But LRL didn't just counter me. There was literally nothing I could have done to make the game any more competitive, except not run Khorne.

Teclis had the portals and Searing white light + archers kill my secrator, both slaughterpriests and my general before I had a turn. Lost models from nearly every unit due to bravery, not being able to use CP and being -2 bravery board wide. Thought thats fine Ill play the objective game knowing lumineth need to stay somewhat castled and his whole front ranks are -1 to hit and I cant afford to be losing any more models in combat cause they will just run in bravery. Didnt matter, essentially lost by turn 2.

Reracked. Tried again, my opponent gave me first turn to try see if there was anything else to do. Same result, just took an extra turn because I was able to spread out slightly and not cop the full searing white light. The archers still killed the secrator and a slaughterpriest turn 1 (couldnt hide them)  Highlight of this game was bravery chick making 5 of my skullcrushers run away after they managed to kill 8 dawn riders who had charged them, by teleporting the cathalar to where the dawnriders were gonna be in the hero phase. Im just happy rolling dice and drinking beers and stuff and dont mind a good flogging if its dice or something I did wrong, but this was neither of those. Even my opponent agreed that there wasnt anything significant that I could have done different.

Im fairly new to the game, but consider myself a pretty good player. I managed a win against a shooty competitive DoK list a few days prior with the same list.

Any thoughts?

[Phasteon]

25 minutes ago, Sharklone said:

Was looking for a Balance thread and found one!

I played a game against LRL with my mortal Khorne list. And I fully understand that some armies counter other armies. That's fine. But LRL didn't just counter me. There was literally nothing I could have done to make the game any more competitive, except not run Khorne.

Teclis had the portals and Searing white light + archers kill my secrator, both slaughterpriests and my general before I had a turn. Lost models from nearly every unit due to bravery, not being able to use CP and being -2 bravery board wide. Thought thats fine Ill play the objective game knowing lumineth need to stay somewhat castled and his whole front ranks are -1 to hit and I cant afford to be losing any more models in combat cause they will just run in bravery. Didnt matter, essentially lost by turn 2.

Reracked. Tried again, my opponent gave me first turn to try see if there was anything else to do. Same result, just took an extra turn because I was able to spread out slightly and not cop the full searing white light. The archers still killed the secrator and a slaughterpriest turn 1 (couldnt hide them)  Highlight of this game was bravery chick making 5 of my skullcrushers run away after they managed to kill 8 dawn riders who had charged them, by teleporting the cathalar to where the dawnriders were gonna be in the hero phase. Im just happy rolling dice and drinking beers and stuff and dont mind a good flogging if its dice or something I did wrong, but this was neither of those. Even my opponent agreed that there wasnt anything significant that I could have done different.

Im fairly new to the game, but consider myself a pretty good player. I managed a win against a shooty competitive DoK list a few days prior with the same list.

Any thoughts?

What exact lists did both of you bring (if you recall)? 

Sounds like the generic Teclis, Sentinels Syar list LRL tend to bring, which is probably the most competitive thing LRL can bring. 

Just want to know how strong your Khorne list was in comparison. 

[Beliman]

@Sharklone It seems that your friend is training for a championship: Scyar with Teclis+portal and sentinals+wardens seems to stomp everyone unless the opponent use another "top tier" list.

Edited April 12, 2021 by Beliman

[Sharklone]

31 minutes ago, Phasteon said:

What exact lists did both of you bring (if you recall)? 

Sounds like the generic Teclis, Sentinels Syar list LRL tend to bring, which is probably the most competitive thing LRL can bring. 

Just want to know how strong your Khorne list was in comparison. 

ahh i dont recall his list exaclty but it was Teclis, cathalar, and then archers and spears in the first game. He swapped out a unit of archers for horses in the second.

I ran - 
Chaos lord on Karkadrak
Bloodsecrator
Priest
Priest

Blood warriors x5

Blood warriors x5

Reavers x 10

5x chaos knights

6x skullcrushers

5x skullreapers

5x skullreapers

5x wrathmongers

gore pilgims

Skulls

 

[NinthMusketeer]

 

1 hour ago, Sharklone said:

Any thoughts?

I read 'played against LRL with Khorne' and literally my first thought was "you poor ******" which I think says quite a lot about the situation you are facing. You may need to resort to a points handicap for the LRL player and/or extra points for yourself. Because there are a lot of ways to slice this matchup and none of them end well for Khorne.

[Phasteon]

2 hours ago, Sharklone said:

ahh i dont recall his list exaclty but it was Teclis, cathalar, and then archers and spears in the first game. He swapped out a unit of archers for horses in the second.

I ran - 
Chaos lord on Karkadrak
Bloodsecrator
Priest
Priest

Blood warriors x5

Blood warriors x5

Reavers x 10

5x chaos knights

6x skullcrushers

5x skullreapers

5x skullreapers

5x wrathmongers

gore pilgims

Skulls

 

thx for the insight, i am 100% honest now: 

1. I really like your list! The Karkadrak Lord, the Knights, pretty cool theme. 

2. You 100% lost cuz of the list 

3. I would probably 100% win with my OBR as well, not even playing a „tournament list“ 

Your list has some really cool models but no win condition imo. 

Everything that can handle 6 Skullcrushers (which sadly is pretty much everything) can handle your list np, and you on top of that lack bodies to hold objectives. 

In this case LRL with Teclis just outclass this list by galaxies as you play like a decent „fun list“ against „the hottest ****** right now“ 

 

[zilberfrid]

4 hours ago, Sharklone said:

Was looking for a Balance thread and found one!

I played a game against LRL with my mortal Khorne list. And I fully understand that some armies counter other armies. That's fine. But LRL didn't just counter me. There was literally nothing I could have done to make the game any more competitive, except not run Khorne.

Teclis had the portals and Searing white light + archers kill my secrator, both slaughterpriests and my general before I had a turn. Lost models from nearly every unit due to bravery, not being able to use CP and being -2 bravery board wide. Thought thats fine Ill play the objective game knowing lumineth need to stay somewhat castled and his whole front ranks are -1 to hit and I cant afford to be losing any more models in combat cause they will just run in bravery. Didnt matter, essentially lost by turn 2.

Reracked. Tried again, my opponent gave me first turn to try see if there was anything else to do. Same result, just took an extra turn because I was able to spread out slightly and not cop the full searing white light. The archers still killed the secrator and a slaughterpriest turn 1 (couldnt hide them)  Highlight of this game was bravery chick making 5 of my skullcrushers run away after they managed to kill 8 dawn riders who had charged them, by teleporting the cathalar to where the dawnriders were gonna be in the hero phase. Im just happy rolling dice and drinking beers and stuff and dont mind a good flogging if its dice or something I did wrong, but this was neither of those. Even my opponent agreed that there wasnt anything significant that I could have done different.

Im fairly new to the game, but consider myself a pretty good player. I managed a win against a shooty competitive DoK list a few days prior with the same list.

Any thoughts?

Don't worry, for armies using magic it isn't any better.

[Sharklone]

30 minutes ago, Phasteon said:

thx for the insight, i am 100% honest now: 

1. I really like your list! The Karkadrak Lord, the Knights, pretty cool theme. 

2. You 100% lost cuz of the list 

3. I would probably 100% win with my OBR as well, not even playing a „tournament list“ 

Your list has some really cool models but no win condition imo. 

Everything that can handle 6 Skullcrushers (which sadly is pretty much everything) can handle your list np, and you on top of that lack bodies to hold objectives. 

In this case LRL with Teclis just outclass this list by galaxies as you play like a decent „fun list“ against „the hottest ****** right now“ 

 

Thanks man. I really like the models haha..

I get what your saying with there being a disparity in the power of the lists. And I don't expect to win against the top tier armies with this list. But...

In terms of balance. Is the list that bad that I lose before I even have a turn?? Looking at the options in khorne, outside of potentially one specific build that I need amazing luck to pull off ( reapers of vengeance artefact on a wrath of khorne thirster).. I can't even see a list where I get to use my models. All the heroes my army relies on are dead turn 1 before I go if the lumineth player so wishes and I lose a significant amount to bravery. All from spells that can't fail and I can't unbind, then anything that survives is murdered by bows I don't even get to roll a save for or am able to hide from. 

From a balance point of view. That seems outrageous. I surprised myself by winning against a fairly competitive shooty DoK snake list and that was a fun game for both of us. Lots of dice roll fun. I won cause of good dice rolls. I'm sure if we rolled the same he would have beaten me, but at least I would have been able to play the game

 

 

[Backbreaker]

I guess it's just one more example that shooting is one of the bane of AoS right now !  

But I "might" be biaised as an Ironjaw player 😁

[zilberfrid]

19 minutes ago, Sharklone said:

Thanks man. I really like the models haha..

I get what your saying with there being a disparity in the power of the lists. And I don't expect to win against the top tier armies with this list. But...

In terms of balance. Is the list that bad that I lose before I even have a turn?? Looking at the options in khorne, outside of potentially one specific build that I need amazing luck to pull off ( reapers of vengeance artefact on a wrath of khorne thirster).. I can't even see a list where I get to use my models. All the heroes my army relies on are dead turn 1 before I go if the lumineth player so wishes and I lose a significant amount to bravery. All from spells that can't fail and I can't unbind, then anything that survives is murdered by bows I don't even get to roll a save for or am able to hide from. 

From a balance point of view. That seems outrageous. I surprised myself by winning against a fairly competitive shooty DoK snake list and that was a fun game for both of us. Lots of dice roll fun. I won cause of good dice rolls. I'm sure if we rolled the same he would have beaten me, but at least I would have been able to play the game

LRL is made to be an uninteractive army.

They can cast, you don't get to unbind. Or cast, if you have magic. They, of course, can unbind with about every unit.

You get to make *their* battleshock tests (and thus lose models).

Shooting needs no line of sight, and due to mortal wounds, good chance you don't even get to roll saves.

They get lots of -1 to hits, but because they deal lots of mortal wounds, are just about unaffected by it.

They can use command points, but you'll have to pay double.

 

I think that is all very poor game design. On top of that, they are overpowered. Which is logical, because the margin on their plasic is probably really high.

 

[whispersofblood]

1 hour ago, zilberfrid said:

LRL is made to be an uninteractive army.

They can cast, you don't get to unbind. Or cast, if you have magic. They, of course, can unbind with about every unit.

You get to make *their* battleshock tests (and thus lose models).

Shooting needs no line of sight, and due to mortal wounds, good chance you don't even get to roll saves.

They get lots of -1 to hits, but because they deal lots of mortal wounds, are just about unaffected by it.

They can use command points, but you'll have to pay double.

 

I think that is all very poor game design. On top of that, they are overpowered. Which is logical, because the margin on their plasic is probably really high.

 

LRL aren't overpowered, if anything these are actually underpowered. I'll give you the lack of "interactivity" of the rules.

[Joseph Mackay]

17 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

LRL aren't overpowered, if anything these are actually underpowered. I'll give you the lack of "interactivity" of the rules.

This. Lumineth aren’t powerful. They’re the ultimate ‘gatekeeper’ army, they mess with everyone rather than just a specific thing. Your top tier op net list that wins tournaments? Yeah you’ll still win, but you’re damn sure going to have to work for it now instead of (generally) being ‘point and click’

Edited April 12, 2021 by Joseph Mackay

[tom0tom]

1 hour ago, zilberfrid said:

LRL is made to be an uninteractive army.

They can cast, you don't get to unbind. Or cast, if you have magic. They, of course, can unbind with about every unit.

You get to make *their* battleshock tests (and thus lose models).

Shooting needs no line of sight, and due to mortal wounds, good chance you don't even get to roll saves.

They get lots of -1 to hits, but because they deal lots of mortal wounds, are just about unaffected by it.

They can use command points, but you'll have to pay double.

 

I think that is all very poor game design. On top of that, they are overpowered. Which is logical, because the margin on their plasic is probably really high.

 

Fully agree. + they have a teleport spell + they have units that can cross the board in one movement phase...

I am a casual player, started playing a couple of years ago. Like many players I think that what makes me like AOS is a balanced mix between the esthetic of the models, building good lists, improving my tactical skills and the way my army plays . I follow up the meta - although I have other hobbies, a job, a family, etc. It takes some personal investment to build/paint an army (I have several armies: NH, BoK, OBR, started StD). At the end of the day it does not really matters if I win or lose but having a chance to do something on the board is key, otherwise why play?

To make a long story short I have the (maybe wrong) feeling that I belong to a category  which probably represents a significant part of the players.

There can be longs debates about nerfing shooting or GW's marketing strategy, etc. Just talking about my personal experience, the powercreep and NPE has went to far for me. I am happy to optimize my lists by buying new units but I am not prepared to buy a new army every 6 months just because it is what it takes to have a chance to win games or at least enjoy AOS. The result is that I have significantly reduced my purchases of GW products in the last 6 months.

Assuming that I am not the only one to react like this, I am wondering if at the end of the day when things go too far  the economic outcome of powercreep is really positive for GW. 

Sadly, I guess that the answer is yes, it is...:-/

 

[Saturmorn Carvilli]

7 hours ago, Sharklone said:

Was looking for a Balance thread and found one!

I played a game against LRL with my mortal Khorne list. And I fully understand that some armies counter other armies. That's fine. But LRL didn't just counter me. There was literally nothing I could have done to make the game any more competitive, except not run Khorne.

Teclis had the portals and Searing white light + archers kill my secrator, both slaughterpriests and my general before I had a turn. Lost models from nearly every unit due to bravery, not being able to use CP and being -2 bravery board wide. Thought thats fine Ill play the objective game knowing lumineth need to stay somewhat castled and his whole front ranks are -1 to hit and I cant afford to be losing any more models in combat cause they will just run in bravery. Didnt matter, essentially lost by turn 2.

Reracked. Tried again, my opponent gave me first turn to try see if there was anything else to do. Same result, just took an extra turn because I was able to spread out slightly and not cop the full searing white light. The archers still killed the secrator and a slaughterpriest turn 1 (couldnt hide them)  Highlight of this game was bravery chick making 5 of my skullcrushers run away after they managed to kill 8 dawn riders who had charged them, by teleporting the cathalar to where the dawnriders were gonna be in the hero phase. Im just happy rolling dice and drinking beers and stuff and dont mind a good flogging if its dice or something I did wrong, but this was neither of those. Even my opponent agreed that there wasnt anything significant that I could have done different.

Im fairly new to the game, but consider myself a pretty good player. I managed a win against a shooty competitive DoK list a few days prior with the same list.

Any thoughts?

I know most Chaos god specific players tend to either overlook or don't want to play what is considered Slaves to Darkness units, but what about Chaos Warriors with Runic Shields?

A big part of the reason I am not overly concerned about Lumineth is that most of the tricks light aelves pull my Chaos Undivided Slaves to Darkness army has an answer to.  While Khorne can't have the nice Battleshock immunity, I think I would also find it difficult for the Lumineth to chew through 15 Chaos Warriors x3 over the course of the game (at least at range).  I can't remember if non-S2D get the re-roll saves, but they certainly would get the +5 Save vs. Mortal Wounds.  Which I have to assume works as good vs. LRL as it does DoT.  I would think that should largely protect from painful Battleshock loses unless the LRL player really commits to hurting a unit of Warriors and gets extraordinarily lucky. 

I mean my Chaos Undivided S2D army certainly isn't on the level of OBR in terms of attrition play, but I think against something like LRL, the army might have better protections than the boneboyz.  Teclis, Cathallar, Sentinels, Wardens and Endless Spells can't be projecting that much physical board coverage, and in many ways; is just as slow as Chaos Warriors.  I would think as long as you can secure the objectives, that LRL army could pound on your army all game but not take away much ground you've secured.

I can also understand that not being exactly a fun way to win games, but I found by playing my Warrior/Knight, Chaos Undivided, Ravagers S2D army that's what I already had to do if I wanted to win games regardless of the opposing army.

[zilberfrid]

1 hour ago, tom0tom said:

Fully agree. + they have a teleport spell + they have units that can cross the board in one movement phase...

I am a casual player, started playing a couple of years ago. Like many players I think that what makes me like AOS is a balanced mix between the esthetic of the models, building good lists, improving my tactical skills and the way my army plays . I follow up the meta - although I have other hobbies, a job, a family, etc. It takes some personal investment to build/paint an army (I have several armies: NH, BoK, OBR, started StD). At the end of the day it does not really matters if I win or lose but having a chance to do something on the board is key, otherwise why play?

To make a long story short I have the (maybe wrong) feeling that I belong to a category  which probably represents a significant part of the players.

There can be longs debates about nerfing shooting or GW's marketing strategy, etc. Just talking about my personal experience, the powercreep and NPE has went to far for me. I am happy to optimize my lists by buying new units but I am not prepared to buy a new army every 6 months just because it is what it takes to have a chance to win games or at least enjoy AOS. The result is that I have significantly reduced my purchases of GW products in the last 6 months.

Assuming that I am not the only one to react like this, I am wondering if at the end of the day when things go too far  the economic outcome of powercreep is really positive for GW. 

Sadly, I guess that the answer is yes, it is...:-/

Oathmark could be a place to flee to for bigger wargames, while Frostgrave is my go-to skirmish game. Both give you full model freedom, cheaper rulebooks, easy communication with the writer and no drive to keep breaking their own game.

GW isn't interested in writing balanced rules. They can make good models, but all their stuff on paper is just disappointing to me.

Edited April 12, 2021 by zilberfrid

[azdimy]

34 minutes ago, tom0tom said:

Fully agree. + they have a teleport spell + they have units that can cross the board in one movement phase...

I am a casual player, started playing a couple of years ago. Like many players I think that what makes me like AOS is a balanced mix between the esthetic of the models, building good lists, improving my tactical skills and the way my army plays . I follow up the meta - although I have other hobbies, a job, a family, etc. It takes some personal investment to build/paint an army (I have several armies: NH, BoK, OBR, started StD). At the end of the day it does not really matters if I win or lose but having a chance to do something on the board is key, otherwise why play?

To make a long story short I have the (maybe wrong) feeling that I belong to a category  which probably represents a significant part of the players.

There can be longs debates about nerfing shooting or GW's marketing strategy, etc. Just talking about my personal experience, the powercreep and NPE has went to far for me. I am happy to optimize my lists by buying new units but I am not prepared to buy a new army every 6 months just because it is what it takes to have a chance to win games or at least enjoy AOS. The result is that I have significantly reduced my purchases of GW products in the last 6 months.

Assuming that I am not the only one to react like this, I am wondering if at the end of the day when things go too far  the economic outcome of powercreep is really positive for GW. 

Sadly, I guess that the answer is yes, it is...:-/

 

You are not alone. The global pandemic situation may have a big positive impact in gw sales but for me and a few friends, the powecreep and the rules bloat have effected our gw purchases in a negative way for games workshop and I don t see the game expanding its player pool with the current trend of battletomes that are being released

 

[Beliman]

21 minutes ago, Saturmorn Carvilli said:

I know most Chaos god specific players tend to either overlook or don't want to play what is considered Slaves to Darkness units, but what about Chaos Warriors with Runic Shields?

A big part of the reason I am not overly concerned about Lumineth is that most of the tricks light aelves pull my Chaos Undivided Slaves to Darkness army has an answer to.  While Khorne can't have the nice Battleshock immunity, I think I would also find it difficult for the Lumineth to chew through 15 Chaos Warriors x3 over the course of the game (at least at range).  I can't remember if non-S2D get the re-roll saves, but they certainly would get the +5 Save vs. Mortal Wounds.  Which I have to assume works as good vs. LRL as it does DoT.  I would think that should largely protect from painful Battleshock loses unless the LRL player really commits to hurting a unit of Warriors and gets extraordinarily lucky. 

I mean my Chaos Undivided S2D army certainly isn't on the level of OBR in terms of attrition play, but I think against something like LRL, the army might have better protections than the boneboyz.  Teclis, Cathallar, Sentinels, Wardens and Endless Spells can't be projecting that much physical board coverage, and in many ways; is just as slow as Chaos Warriors.  I would think as long as you can secure the objectives, that LRL army could pound on your army all game but not take away much ground you've secured.

I can also understand that not being exactly a fun way to win games, but I found by playing my Warrior/Knight, Chaos Undivided, Ravagers S2D army that's what I already had to do if I wanted to win games regardless of the opposing army.

Take a look at Conquest: Last argument of the kings.

You can use your round based models (you only need some "handmade" movement trays".  The rules are free on their webside and 90% of the models can be converted or used as proxys.

[Ragest]

I think I have explained this somewhere in this forum but not there.

LrL are going to stomp every low bravery or slow armies, like, every of them. Is made for that (at leas the BIG list). But, as LrL player, I can tell you some stories about the opposite. 
 

I lose in 1 turn vs Tzeentch, Kharadron or Seraphon, even Slaneesh makes me cry with the alpha-pile in 6” strategy.

The game is now rock-paper-machinegun.

Rocks are low tier armies, they lose vs every other armies and really hard. Khorne is there. Paper wins pretty easy vs rocks, most of paper armies can do it without thinking so much os making tons of mistakes, mostly because the disgusting damage they can put in 1 turn.

And then, the machineguns. They crush everyone.

That's our current situation. You want to try khorne vs lumineth? You are going to lose 9/10 times. You want to try lumineth vs Kharadron? The same. The balance is so broken that matches are now boring at the most, finished in one turn, or one double turn, filled with crazy strategies (Dr, tp, you can’t see me, free spells, you can’t hide) that have 0 counterplay, most of them without wasting any resource and can change matches alone.

Edited April 12, 2021 by Ragest