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Discussing balance in AoS


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37 minutes ago, NinthMusketeer said:

Technically the max is 6 archregents each summoning 20 ghouls for a total of 1200 free points round one, but I figured I would name something more reasonable. 800 being hyperbole? I wish.

Nice straw man with that closing statement though, would be a solid hero for a scarecrow army.

Man you say it's not hyperbole and then choose as reference a build purpose-made to just maximize one aspect? Show me all those lists with 6 (or 4) archregeants, I can sure show you a lot of CP-hungry syar lists which will be made immediately better thanks to a free giveaway.

That being said, I had a good chuckle at the straw man joke so that's a point for you. What I wanted to say with my last line is that LRL are demonstrably getting stuff above their current power level, at the very least because they are getting free stuff on top of what they already have.

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1 hour ago, Beliman said:

Not true. Vanguars hunters can "set-up 7" away and if we count Ride The Winds as some type of teleport/Fly High,  that's another one (3" away).

If the leaks are true, lorekeeper is a 6wound unit with 3save that will forces the oponent to kill him or let him score.

Not sure if that will be enough to be included in all Lumineth lists after people know the trick.

Yep, as I said, we were *close* to consistency in that rule. In fact we still have the changeling which, I believe, works exactly how this new guy will work

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3 hours ago, Marcvs said:

Man you say it's not hyperbole and then choose as reference a build purpose-made to just maximize one aspect? Show me all those lists with 6 (or 4) archregeants, I can sure show you a lot of CP-hungry syar lists which will be made immediately better thanks to a free giveaway.

That being said, I had a good chuckle at the straw man joke so that's a point for you. What I wanted to say with my last line is that LRL are demonstrably getting stuff above their current power level, at the very least because they are getting free stuff on top of what they already have.

And my point is that the new stuff they are getting is not even equally bad to what we already deal with. And again, I referenced 800 specifically because it is NOT the maximum they can bring in if going all-in on summoning. Going 'full summon' is a full 50% more free points than that. You accused me of hyperbole without even knowing the rules I was talking about! How am I, or anyone, supposed to respect your opinion on these Lumineth rules when you have just clearly demonstrated tremendous misconception with rules that are literally free for anyone to download?

So to reiterate, instead of actually checking to see what legitimacy my claim had you jumped to insulting me, and when called on it turned around with a disingenuous bad-faith argument. And to top it off, this is defending a judgement call on something we don't even have the full warscroll for yet!

So no, I am not writing up a list for you. Engage in some good-faith discussion to demonstrate you are worth the effort and maybe one day I will.

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7 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

Oh no worries the fox spirit is tame:

Reduces pile-in ranges of enemies, does MWs when moving over sth. And destroys faction terrain when moving over sth. And can retreat and shoot and Charge And And

Wait they have destroy terrain by just moving over terrain? Really kinda takes away from the giants tbh it was kind of one of their things.

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I think you need to understand the specific logical math chain happening here:

-Some units in the Lumineth army ignore specific rules. Sometimes more than one.

-Other units in the Lumineth army also ignore specific rules,  but they are different ones.

-While no part of the army gets to ignore a ton of rules, there is a wide spread across the whole force of rules getting ignored even though it is only by specific units in specific ways.

-This is the internet so specifics are generally ignored. Therefore 'specific units ignore specific rules, while other specific units ignore other specific rules' becomes 'units ignore rules, other units ignore other rules'.

-Generalization must also be applied, because internet. So 'units' and 'other units' can be combined into 'most of the army'. While 'rules' and 'other rules' can be combined into 'most of the rules'.

-Therefore, we can conclude that most of the Lumineth army ignores most of the rules.

This is quite frightening.

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8 hours ago, Beliman said:

Appart from 2 or 3 warscrolls (Sevireth and Ballista's points mainly), I like all other warscrolls. Some of them have crazy stuff, but I find that almost everything can be played around. After 2 games, I think that 90% of the issues will be tonned down. 

I'm pretty sure that some people will discover some wombo-combos and all that ******, but that's another thing.

At some point it is getting hard and if you have to play around every single LRL unit and its tricks. At this point a game is dominated by the bloat of special, unstoppable shenanigans the LRL can pull off. It is all around a feel bad situation.

Edited by JackStreicher
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24 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

At some point it is getting hard and if you have to play around every single LRL unit and its tricks. At this point a game is dominated by the bloat of special, unstoppable shenanigans the LRL can pull off. It is all around a feel bad situation.

Makes me wonder, at what point tournaments, will have to start banning whole factions

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4 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Tournaments won‘t care. LRL Are killing casual games.

Mate, If lrl are going to be that toxic in casual, theres a high chance that I will be refusing to play against them,

As for lrl, if they are becoming this toxic, and are the winning army for like ever, there might as well be chance for the w

events to ban the faction.

it almost happened to 40k with iron hands, if gw wouldn’t have brought out an faQ

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4 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

At some point it is getting hard and g you have to play around every single LRL unit and its tricks. At this points game is dominated by the bloat of special, unstoppable shenanigans the LRL can pull off. It all around feel bad.

Not sure about that. I don't think that 2000 points are going to be enough to have more gimmicks than what they are already playing. 

I will wait until I play 4 or 5 games vs them to know if that's possible without using any meme-list. At this moment, if they want to play with all the shinny stuff, they need to remove Teclis, and that's half of their tricks in one model.

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5 hours ago, NinthMusketeer said:

And my point is that the new stuff they are getting is not even equally bad to what we already deal with. And again, I referenced 800 specifically because it is NOT the maximum they can bring in if going all-in on summoning. Going 'full summon' is a full 50% more free points than that. You accused me of hyperbole without even knowing the rules I was talking about! How am I, or anyone, supposed to respect your opinion on these Lumineth rules when you have just clearly demonstrated tremendous misconception with rules that are literally free for anyone to download?

So to reiterate, instead of actually checking to see what legitimacy my claim had you jumped to insulting me, and when called on it turned around with a disingenuous bad-faith argument. And to top it off, this is defending a judgement call on something we don't even have the full warscroll for yet!

So no, I am not writing up a list for you. Engage in some good-faith discussion to demonstrate you are worth the effort and maybe one day I will.

I understand it's frustrating to push back against hot takes, but at no point I have insulted you (unless you conceive "a bit unfair" or "hyperbole" as insults). In this sense, I am not really sure of what I wrote (or how) to warrant the tone of your answers.

As for the rules, you're free to think what you like about my knowledge, my point still stands: you can play every week and never face the problem of FEC summoning 800 points for free (at the moment). My argument rests in the fact the charnel throne doesn't give you the CP-free ability on the one unit (gk on terrorgheist) which is taken more often in that spot. So, if you want to build your version (and that's why I called it hyperbolic) you have to go out of your way exclusively to maximize that aspect. Hence, no, in the vast majority of cases, we don't deal with this already. On the contrary, the LRL scenery adds in top of whatever list you want to build, doesn't require any choice and fits in whatever strategy you want to deploy. We will have to deal with this in 100% of our games Vs LRL.

This is of course based on my assumption that, in light of all the precedents, the faction terrain will cost 0 points. On this I might be completely wrong.

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4 hours ago, NinthMusketeer said:

I think you need to understand the specific logical math chain happening here:

-Some units in the Lumineth army ignore specific rules. Sometimes more than one.

-Other units in the Lumineth army also ignore specific rules,  but they are different ones.

-While no part of the army gets to ignore a ton of rules, there is a wide spread across the whole force of rules getting ignored even though it is only by specific units in specific ways.

-This is the internet so specifics are generally ignored. Therefore 'specific units ignore specific rules, while other specific units ignore other specific rules' becomes 'units ignore rules, other units ignore other rules'.

-Generalization must also be applied, because internet. So 'units' and 'other units' can be combined into 'most of the army'. While 'rules' and 'other rules' can be combined into 'most of the rules'.

-Therefore, we can conclude that most of the Lumineth army ignores most of the rules.

This is quite frightening.

To be honest the lack of precision is pretty frustrating and is why I stopped going to the pub to watch football. 

I understand some people like "casual" punditry that's fine, but for me when casuals push on by arguing they are correct using arguments like multiplicity, or "obviously" xyc, I just kind of check out.

The NPE discussion has just kind of cemented my opposition to the democratization of technical matters. Most people aren't lazy thinkers they more rightly just aren't aware at how deep they have to think before coming to a conclusion. 

The irony is that LRL are ok at the game, and lots of their rules just let the controlling player make the opponent player less good at playing the game. But, probably still better than the LRL player. It's exactly what people asked for decreased lethality, and outcomes of games being determined by what happens on the board. 

People laud the Orruk Warclans book, but if we are honest with our definitions it's actually not interactive at all it just appears so because people conflate dice rolling with interaction. And generalize corner cases across a spectrum, all the Orruk factions win games by removing the opponent's ability to interact with them in a particular manner. This is more broadly true of all the factions in or above the fat middle. 

The factions that are terrible are the ones with no tools, and not ability to semi-reliably do something central to the playstyle's design. 

Most people think about the game like a pleb, from the perspective of a model on the board. When you should be thinking from the position of a Napoleon or a Rommel. Yes a gun is uninteractive between the shooter and shootee. The interaction between generals is determining who gets to decide where that gun is being pointed. This is why the top 10% at events can almost always be determined pre-event, and why certain players will never crack that group regardless of the army they have. 

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On the face of it the Lumineth rules do look very strong, the 6" free move post charge is mind bendingly good. Not overly worried about the sword masters but ultimately I don't think people should start claiming the sky is falling until we see how they land in the meta. 

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On the subject of FEC summoning free stuff i a quick glance but didnt see it mentioned..

The summoning cost is baked into their warscrolls. The archregeant is a 240point 7w  wizard. Terrorgheists/zombie dragons with riders pay a premium because of the summoning too. Obviously you don't pay the entire points cost of the summons but atleast 50%. Its part of a risky design style that makes them doubly vulnerable to alpha strikes/being killed before they summon. You could say a lot of armies have summoning as a 'free' allegiance ability

 

 

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2 hours ago, SeanMaguire1991 said:

by a damn Skaven gunline. 

 

Uahahaha

2 hours ago, SeanMaguire1991 said:

The sheer amount of Mortal wounds being cranked out is laughable, it was like crossing the Somme.

Teah the mortal wounds this army can put out onto itself is also kinda funny (and broken in a way)

there actually aren’t that many armies able to destroy almost their entire army by themself on turn 1 as the skaven.

they really are broken, they just vanish by themself😂

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30 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Uahahaha

Teah the mortal wounds this army can put onto itself is also kinda funny (and broken in a way)

there actually aren’t that many armies able to destroy almost their entire army by themself on turn 1 as the skaven.

they really are broken, they just vanish by themself😂

"Yes-yes boss-master we killed-shot everyone!"

"Then go-move and get that objective-goal!"

"But-but boss-master, we killed-exploded all of ours-us too!"

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I think it's worth noting that NPEs have nothing to do with balance. A mechanic or unit can be (a bit) overpowered and still be fun and engaging for many players, or can be fairly balanced or underpowered and still be a negative play experience for many players. Lumineth are a great example of this - I haven't found them to be exceptionally good at winning games, I just don't enjoy playing against them because their mechanics are anti-fun for a host of reasons detailed at great length in recent threads, and it sounds like quite a lot of people share that opinion.

Both NPEs and balance issues are serious problems for games, and dismissing NPEs as a concern because they're about "feelings" or are "subjective" or whatever is just limited thinking. But this thread is specifically about balance, so it's probably best to focus on that side of the discussion.

My personal balance bugbear at the moment is the Akhelian Leviadon (post BR:M upgrade). That thing is bonkers good for 340 points - fast, flying, hits like a freight train, 2+ save, decent ranged attacks, and a massive aura of +1 save which now stacks with cover (bringing those flipping unrendable eels to a 2+ save). And it can still be buffed to the moon by an Akhelian King's redonkulous stacking Lord of Tides ability to become the ****** destroyer of worlds for a turn. Pure madness.

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1 hour ago, Kadeton said:

My personal balance bugbear at the moment is the Akhelian Leviadon (post BR:M upgrade). That thing is bonkers good for 340 points - fast, flying, hits like a freight train, 2+ save, decent ranged attacks, and a massive aura of +1 save which now stacks with cover (bringing those flipping unrendable eels to a 2+ save). And it can still be buffed to the moon by an Akhelian King's redonkulous stacking Lord of Tides ability to become the ****** destroyer of worlds for a turn. Pure madness.

Yes,i did a post with the release of br morathi saying this,but idoneths players only found the excuse that the turtle isnt broken,are ALL the others behemots who are bad and need buffs.

As you said the turtle alone is more broken at power levels than all the lumineths tome,but lumineths are the epitome of npe army.

To me is imposible say to tye face of someone in the real life that i wont play against his lumineths after the money and time that he spent on them even if it is unfun for me.

But for sure im declining every lumineth game in tts

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5 hours ago, Svalack said:

On the subject of FEC summoning free stuff i a quick glance but didnt see it mentioned..

The summoning cost is baked into their warscrolls. The archregeant is a 240point 7w  wizard. Terrorgheists/zombie dragons with riders pay a premium because of the summoning too. Obviously you don't pay the entire points cost of the summons but atleast 50%. Its part of a risky design style that makes them doubly vulnerable to alpha strikes/being killed before they summon. You could say a lot of armies have summoning as a 'free' allegiance ability

 

 

It summons a 160-200 point unit that gets to come in from any table edge; more beneficial than having to deploy it normally. The CP cost is negated by the throne, so no, the archregent is not a 240-point 7-wound 2-cast wizard that heals 3 wounds a turn. Its 80 points. A player in my local community uses FEC as his tournament army, he has four of them.

So when I see THAT it is difficult to be alarmed by what I see in the newmineth.

Edited by NinthMusketeer
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47 minutes ago, NinthMusketeer said:

It summons a 160-200 point unit that gets to come in from any table edge; more beneficial than having to deploy it normally. The CP cost is negated by the throne, so no, the archregent is not a 240-point 7-wound 2-cast wizard that heals 3 wounds a turn. Its 80 points. A player in my local community uses FEC as his tournament army, he has four of them.

A 4 archregeant FEC list would have very high drops so autolose against any lists that can kill some archreagents before his turn or the opponent can advance & spread making him have to summon in his own table edge behind his army, where they do nothing for an entire turn. Its also highly questionable to have 4 copies of the same wizard, many will have nothing to do, at that point you would be better just taking flayers instead and making 6-9 model units and having a battalion. 

Usually with FEC people complain about gristlegore terrorgheists fighting first or the double attack for a cp not their summoning.

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18 hours ago, Marcvs said:

...the changeling which, I believe, works exactly how this new guy will work

It is and I wanted to make a smart mouth remark that new changeling deployment rules were just leaked in the grand alliance chaos book. I actually like the changeling and play him. So I've seen something like the loreseeker in action in many games.

I'm not convinced objective secured will break the game on this guy and I don't think he is indestructible because he has a 3+ save.

Further I notice a lot of people complain about LrL, but also most people are still winning against LrL, including me.

So what do we care about? the NPE or the balance? I think @Kadeton had a good point about separating the two.

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  • 2 weeks later...

 

On 3/26/2021 at 2:40 AM, NinthMusketeer said:

It was already massively important to be on the same page as one's opponent/community in where the power level should be. This update will make it more so, but only by a wee bit. A new sample on the 100-cheese platter.

Honestly.... I think it takes a good competitive player to be able to actually do this. If it's two people hard core into the beer and pretzels, but one is playing LRL and the other is playing sylvaneth, that LRL player is going to cream the sylvaneth player hardcore almost every time despite neither trying to take competitive armies.

 

It is why it frustrates me when people go "Oh competitive shouldn't count, most people don't play that way" as if balance is only skewed for people trying to 5-0 tournaments and if you're just super caj, well it's no problem. It's even worse for casual players, because pure casual often don't know what they're getting in to, and darn the seraphon player has just beaten the pants off everyone in the group for the twentieth time.

 

It takes some pretty good understanding of your army to know how to tone it down as well as how to turn it up, and it takes an understanding of the opponent's army to know where to tone your army down to.

 

And I can't tell you how many stories I have been hearing about people's starts in a warhammer game being, pretty much "Me and my brother (Friend, what have you) used to play, and he won 90 percent of games cause he took overpowered faction X, while I had underpowered faction Y". This isn't people trying to bend the rules into a pretzel to top the ITC (Or whatever circuit), it's siblings where one just bought a better army than the other.

 

 

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