Discussing balance in AoS

[Kadeton]

9 hours ago, NinthMusketeer said:

What I ask of GW in regards to balance is very simple: do a better job with the point costs. That's it. No trade-offs, no changes. Just balance them better.

There's always a trade-off. If there wasn't, they'd just be doing it already.

In the case of balancing points costs better, I see two main potential trade-offs. The first is prior to a book's initial release - just put more effort into getting the balance of points right in the initial printing. More effort means more time (i.e. a slower release schedule), more cost (i.e. a higher sticker price on books), or some combination of the two.

And since no matter how much testing and balancing you do, there will still be things that slip through, we have the second trade-off - collect more ongoing data to identify and address balance problems. That means more post-release changes in Errata or the GHB, more people getting mad about their newly-bought armies being "invalidated". And of course, that work also requires additional effort, which has to translate into slower releases or higher prices.

[EchoHavoc]

So, I think GW are waiting for AoS 3 before they make any major changes to the game. In most instances they ramp things up like this just before a major update or release take for example the Slaanesh battletome, the points costs there seem much higher than that of the DoK book. I believe this was because the Slaanesh battletome was intended for 3.0 where as the DoK book wasn’t.

Also let’s not forget the Generals Handbook will be released anytime between June and August. That will sort of a lot of the points issues (lets hope anyways). Everyone knows Seraphon are broken. However, I think GW understand we haven’t had any real tournaments for over a year now (talking specially about U.K tournaments). So maybe they are waiting till the next updates to address these issues.

The things that I believe they need to work on are the double turn mechanic, this is like marmite, love it or hate it. Personally, I hate it. This is for two reasons, firstly I don’t like the fact that if I get doubled, I have to wait another turn before I get to use my toys.  Then the other reason is because the game at its current level has so much damage, I can literally lose all my key units in two turns. Getting doubled my KO for example can potentially be game ending. Its very hard to balance shooting without just completely tanking armies like KO in there current state. GW would need to give them more melee tools to compensate for any such nerf.

The other thing I dislike is the way first turn is decided. I like the mechanic in 40k where if you win the roll off you HAVE to go first. Makes games more interesting I feel. However, with the double turn mechanic I doubt this would work in AoS. They need to, in my opinion find another way to balance who gets the first turn.

[EchoHavoc]

Also, as an aside about fun and NPE. While I agree in some aspects, the game is going the wrong way with this (NPE I mean, I still think the game is fun as hell). I would like to say, having been part of both the 40k and AoS competitive scene. I can say the AoS scene is much, much more fun and a far better place to play competitive Warhammer.  People are in my experience nicer, less sweaty (people who play the game seriously or someone who takes a game too seriously when it's not warranted) and wanting to have fun. I’ve rocked up to tables in AoS where the chance of me winning is very slim or been tabled in two turns but had a blast doing it. In 40k if I get outright destroyed its normally a ‘gotcha moment’ or the opponent has wanted to win at all costs. Anyway, to me AoS, while not perfect by any stretch is in a better place than its ever been and once a few issues have been ironed out I think it’ll be one of the best tabletop games out there.

[Doko]

I really hope that the last tomes arent the balance that we can hope for 3.0

Dok with teleporting archers snakes shotting twices and doing 50 mortals?

Lumineths with rules that ignore every penalty of the game,game rules or deny every enemy rule?

I prefer olds times with simple warscrolls and rules because it had less potential of happen things as lumineths

[EchoHavoc]

37 minutes ago, Doko said:

I really hope that the last tomes arent the balance that we can hope for 3.0

Dok with teleporting archers snakes shotting twices and doing 50 mortals?

Lumineths with rules that ignore every penalty of the game,game rules or deny every enemy rule?

I prefer olds times with simple warscrolls and rules because it had less potential of happen things as lumineths

I believe that DoK was not meant as a 3.0 book. It was delayed massively due to Covid and Brexit. From what I've heard the Slaanesh book was designed for 3.0. Which would make sense given the points increases, which I think are in line with the board size changing to smaller size. Same thing happened in 40k, they changed the board size and upped the points to compensate. 

Lumineth realm lords, I have no idea what's going on there. Unless they are pointed correctly they will mix up the meta quite a lot. 

One of the things that drew me to this game was that it was simple to grasp, with a small rulebook and decent entry level but also has a high ceiling, where a good player can do wonders and there's lots you can do with it. I hope they don't go to overboard with sweeping changes to over complicate the game.  Or add too much stuff to it. I feel 40k is way too complicated with all the rules and books etc. I wouldn't want AoS going the same way. 

Edited March 25, 2021 by EchoHavoc

[NinthMusketeer]

9 hours ago, Kadeton said:

There's always a trade-off. If there wasn't, they'd just be doing it already.

In the case of balancing points costs better, I see two main potential trade-offs. The first is prior to a book's initial release - just put more effort into getting the balance of points right in the initial printing. More effort means more time (i.e. a slower release schedule), more cost (i.e. a higher sticker price on books), or some combination of the two.

And since no matter how much testing and balancing you do, there will still be things that slip through, we have the second trade-off - collect more ongoing data to identify and address balance problems. That means more post-release changes in Errata or the GHB, more people getting mad about their newly-bought armies being "invalidated". And of course, that work also requires additional effort, which has to translate into slower releases or higher prices.

I don't buy that. First, because the time investment would be trivial, the 'trade off' is just having someone/multiple someones who know what they are doing. For example; I could take a battletome and create the level of balance I am asking for with a single 8-hour work shift. That is one shift per book. That is nothing, a drop in the bucket.

Second, there are people lining up in the community who would do it for free. GW does not want to change the current dynamic because a meta that is balanced enough to keep people playing coupled with shifting unbalance produces sales as what is good or bad changes over time and people buy to compensate. What the accountants do not understand is how that cuts away at player recruitment and retention in the long term.

[NinthMusketeer]

41 minutes ago, Doko said:

I really hope that the last tomes arent the balance that we can hope for 3.0

Dok with teleporting archers snakes shotting twices and doing 50 mortals?

Lumineths with rules that ignore every penalty of the game,game rules or deny every enemy rule?

I prefer olds times with simple warscrolls and rules because it had less potential of happen things as lumineths

Nothing previewed from Lumineth is anywhere near the level of potency as what they already have, not sure what you are on about there.

[Marcvs]

48 minutes ago, NinthMusketeer said:

Nothing previewed from Lumineth is anywhere near the level of potency as what they already have, not sure what you are on about there.

have you seen the terrain piece which essentially gives you one free CP per turn (so potentially 10 CPs over the course of a game)?  (and this is for sure something they don't already have)  https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/03/25/riding-around-the-battlefield-in-a-stylish-floating-temple-is-the-most-lumineth-thing-ever/

[Hannibal]

20 hours ago, NinthMusketeer said:

But I don't ask GW to do that. What I ask of GW in regards to balance is very simple: do a better job with the point costs. That's it. No trade-offs, no changes. Just balance them better.

 

I can´t see this as the needed solution. For example, I mainly play Nurgle and let´s talk about Nurglings. I love the models. I own a lot of them. But I can´t imagine a points cost for them that would pull me towards using them. Their rules are just bad.

How much would you pay for them to even consider using them?

 

I think those examples can be found in any army. Units that are just bad ruleswise. Or units that do not offer anything for the player, no matter their points cost.

 

Points changes might be ok in some way or another, but it is not the soution for the whole problem.

[Doko]

I said lumineths in global,we dont know even the rules of the new units(i know it because i have seen the new warscrolls allready but i wont post them)

[EchoHavoc]

23 minutes ago, Doko said:

I said lumineths in global,we dont know even the rules of the new units(i know it because i have seen the new warscrolls allready but i wont post them)

Yeah those rules are looking kinda spicy for sure  

[Doko]

For example i can say that the warmachine is better than the stormcast ballista and cost 100 only 

[EchoHavoc]

31 minutes ago, Doko said:

For example i can say that the warmachine is better than the stormcast ballista and cost 100 only 

So I've read over all the new rules, as have my whole gaming group. We are very how shall we say it, 'impressed' by the rules. However, we don't think its completely broken. 

[NinthMusketeer]

3 hours ago, Marcvs said:

have you seen the terrain piece which essentially gives you one free CP per turn (so potentially 10 CPs over the course of a game)?  (and this is for sure something they don't already have)  https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/03/25/riding-around-the-battlefield-in-a-stylish-floating-temple-is-the-most-lumineth-thing-ever/

And what command abilities are they using? Because I am pretty dam sure it will be benign compared to FEC pulling in 800 points of free models from any table edge turn 1 thanks to their terrain piece.

[Marcvs]

1 hour ago, NinthMusketeer said:

And what command abilities are they using? Because I am pretty dam sure it will be benign compared to FEC pulling in 800 points of free models from any table edge turn 1 thanks to their terrain piece.

care to elaborate about how you calculate those 800 points? because to the best of my knowledge you are off by a 4x margin (170 being the maximum) or by a 2x margin if you are counting double summoning. it's a bit unfair to immediately deploy an hyperbole when you were just pointing out how people should not overstate the power level of the new LRL stuff. However you calculate it, it's still a maximum of 2 CPs for free over an entire game, here we're talking of 2 free CPs per battle round.

as for your question, I would say: 1) in your turn, reroll 1s to hit with sentinels (or wardens if in combat); 2) in the opponent's turn, immunity to battleshock for a second unit (I am assuming you have a cathallar for the first) or reroll 1s to save. Unless of course you are in Syar, in which case you also use it to double activate the aetherquartz.

we still don't know if the scenery piece costs points but, considering all the precedents, it probably won't. If you think that 2CPs per battle round for free is nothing, I'll gladly take them.

Edited March 25, 2021 by Marcvs

[JackStreicher]

The whole of the upcoming LRL (BR Teclis and Warscrolls) have been leaked on fb.

No comment. They continue the bs train by increasing the speed of it.

The loreseeker will be able to deploy on a objective, that can‘t be snatched from him until he dies and oh: he has a 3+ save... and that is just the tip of the dung-berg

 

I wonder if this overturning is the way to go for newer rules or if this accidentally happened twice to LRL only.

Edited March 25, 2021 by JackStreicher

[Marcvs]

7 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

The loreseeker will be able to deploy on a objective, that can‘t be snatched from him until he dies and oh: he has a 3+ save... and that is just the tip of the dung-berg

The frustrating thing with the loreseeker, leaving aside for a moment the "objective secured" rule, is that we were this close to standardising the 9" distance for ALL forms of teleportation (yay consistency) and here comes this guy (and also an artifact for one of the new great nations) teleporting 3" away from an enemy 🤷‍♂️

Edited March 25, 2021 by Marcvs

[JackStreicher]

I am at a loss for words. This is disheartening.

[JackStreicher]

Oh no worries the fox spirit is tame:

Reduces pile-in ranges of enemies, does MWs when moving over sth. And destroys faction terrain when moving over sth. And can retreat and shoot and Charge And And

Edited March 25, 2021 by JackStreicher

[Ragest]

20 stalkers teleporting and shooting twice with mw on a 6 to hit with —1 rend on turn 1 player telling us what is bs and npe

[Beliman]

Appart from 2 or 3 warscrolls (Sevireth and Ballista's points mainly), I like all other warscrolls. Some of them have crazy stuff, but I find that almost everything can be played around. After 2 games, I think that 90% of the issues will be tonned down. 

I'm pretty sure that some people will discover some wombo-combos and all that ******, but that's another thing.

Edited March 25, 2021 by Beliman

[Eternalis]

20 minutes ago, Ragest said:

20 stalkers teleporting and shooting twice with mw on a 6 to hit with —1 rend on turn 1 player telling us what is bs and npe

Yeah, because DoK players can't agree with you on this stalkers nonsense? We said it on the forum that this combo was bs. Thanks for being so nice to the DoK players.
Lumineths get some fancy stuff, and some look really strong AND stupid.

[Doko]

1 hour ago, Marcvs said:

The frustrating thing with the loreseeker, leaving aside for a moment the "objective secured" rule, is that we were this close to standardising the 9" distance for ALL forms of teleportation (yay consistency) and here comes this guy (and also an artifact for one of the new great nations) teleporting 3" away from an enemy 🤷‍♂️

This is only other rule more of the infinite rules that lumineth tome ignore.

 

[Beliman]

1 hour ago, Marcvs said:

is that we were this close to standardising the 9" distance for ALL forms of teleportation (yay consistency)

Not true. Vanguars hunters can "set-up 7" away and if we count Ride The Winds as some type of teleport/Fly High,  that's another one (3" away).

If the leaks are true, lorekeeper is a 6wound unit with 3save that will forces the oponent to kill him or let him score.

Not sure if that will be enough to be included in all Lumineth lists after people know the trick.

Edited March 25, 2021 by Beliman

[NinthMusketeer]

2 hours ago, Marcvs said:

care to elaborate about how you calculate those 800 points? because to the best of my knowledge you are off by a 4x margin (170 being the maximum) or by a 2x margin if you are counting double summoning. it's a bit unfair to immediately deploy an hyperbole when you were just pointing out how people should not overstate the power level of the new LRL stuff. However you calculate it, it's still a maximum of 2 CPs for free over an entire game, here we're talking of 2 free CPs per battle round.

as for your question, I would say: 1) in your turn, reroll 1s to hit with sentinels (or wardens if in combat); 2) in the opponent's turn, immunity to battleshock for a second unit (I am assuming you have a cathallar for the first) or reroll 1s to save. Unless of course you are in Syar, in which case you also use it to double activate the aetherquartz.

we still don't know if the scenery piece costs points but, considering all the precedents, it probably won't. If you think that 2CPs per battle round for free is nothing, I'll gladly take them.

Technically the max is 6 archregents each summoning 20 ghouls for a total of 1200 free points round one, but I figured I would name something more reasonable. 800 being hyperbole? I wish.

Nice straw man with that closing statement though, would be a solid hero for a scarecrow army.

Edited March 25, 2021 by NinthMusketeer