To Ardboy or not to Ardboy

[SunStorm]

I'm afraid I've already chopped Ghoulchewer in half and I'm currently working on painting him up as a Gore Grunta Boss...

In terms of size, his upper torso isn't far off the megaboss,  which you can sort of see above. His actual legs are tiny however, I assume due to needing to fit onto a 32mm base.

I'm undecided what to do with the rest of the team. I might yet end up messing around with my bitsbox and making them into something for AoS. 

 

 

Edited March 9, 2021 by SunStorm

[Vasshpit]

@SunStorm Really nice work there!

He looks to be on par scale wise but you can tell the artist gave them different anatomical proportions! My idea was to use him as a MawKrusha Boss or given his wounds, a Gordrakk conversion. 

Nice! I may still pick up that half of BB off Ebay. I'll wait awhile and see what GWs brings out for them first. 

Edited March 9, 2021 by Vasshpit

[PlasticCraic]

Aesthetically I think they look waaaaaay better with a simple head swap.  It's the helmeted heads that make them look a bit dated and goofy: it's no coincidence that the (excellent) Ironskull's Boyz left them behind (3 of the 4 have no helmet, and the 4th is completely different without the horns).

I was actually talking about this on Twitter last night and as you can see from Chris's photo in the top right, the unit looks great with spare heads from the Gore Grunta kit:

 

helmet.jfif head.jfif

Edited March 9, 2021 by PlasticCraic

[Vasshpit]

@PlasticCraic I agree they do look good with a headswap. I've seen it done a few times before here and there. Those are some good looking models btw.

I agree that the Ardboyz (classic black orc) look is cool. It's just that I think they in and of themselves overlap too much with true Jawz in the current setting. 

And especially with ToW coming they just aren't needed here. 

This guy did some lonnnng ago like that. 

 

Edited March 9, 2021 by Vasshpit
Added link

[PlasticCraic]

From a gameplay perspective I agree with the comments that they need to be distinguished more from Brutes rather than removed from the army.  And also that it's Brutes that should be the ones to have a Warscroll change.

Don't forget that Brutes are squeezed out by both Ardboyz and Gore Gruntas: the reason they have ended up having to be the cheapest wounds of the three is that they just do the same thing but slower (i.e. worse).  With their profile of 3/3/-1/1 and not much else in terms of Warscroll abilities, they are the most generic combat unit in the game.

Ardboyz already have an important role in the army as relatively affordable bodies (as distinct from wounds), so they can screen and cap objectives.  They are also a fairly cheap unit (min cost 100 points) that can stand in a Gnawhole or wear a Terrorgheist to the face.  Their +2 (really +3) to charge gives them an interesting niche and the extra bravery to hopefully hang around on Objectives gives them an interesting feel on the tabletop as a slightly techy unit that can fight a bit and helps you win games.

Given that we already have the same dudes riding pigs, the only role Brutes can offer is to be the slow but devastating combat unit, in which case they need something to hang their hat on.  I don't hate the ideas about giving them a 3+ save and making them an anvil, but I would also like to see them become a nutcracker.  This army can bounce off elite armour saves and I'd like to see rend -2 (and maybe even rend -3 on the big weapons), or some kind of exploding mortal wounds on 6s, even if it meant the unit had to become more expensive to reflect a truly elite combat unit.

Also their Bravery needs to be looked at, 6 is just pathetic.

TL:DR in gameplay terms Ardboyz absolutely have their role, it's Brutes that need looking at.

Edited March 9, 2021 by PlasticCraic

[PlasticCraic]

1 minute ago, Vasshpit said:

It's just that I think they in and of themselves overlap too much with true Jawz in the current setting. 

Can I ask what you mean specifically by overlap?

Do you mean in gameplay terms, or something else? 

[Vasshpit]

@PlasticCraic you hit it dead center with your gameplay mechanics points.

Brutes really did get neutered this last time around. 

My overlap opinion is mostly about design more than anything. (Heavely armored 3 wound orruks or heavely armored 2 wound orruks in the simplest terms. )

[PlasticCraic]

Fair enough - it's been an interesting discussion 😁

[Vasshpit]

@PlasticCraic Ha! Sorry, busy night. I'll go more in depth on that if you'd like later. 

You're definitely more into the gaming and mechanics side of thing where as I am more painting, collecting, and lore. I've enjoyed many of your posts on such topics as well and found them very insightful. 

I'll get back soon. 

 

[zilberfrid]

18 hours ago, SunStorm said:

From a model perspective I think they could do with a new kit as they don't really match the rest of the Ironjawz range.  It wouldn't be as bad if there were still other units that fit the same style,  but it's just the Ardboys and everything else is new. 

The unit I have is a mix of Underworlds and converted Blood Bowl orruks, which works well enough, but would prefer a proper multipart kit by GW.

On a side note the Black Orcs from the latest Blood Bowl set are really nice sculpts and much closer in size to the brutes than previous black orcs/ardboyz, even the more recent Ironskull's boyz.

 

The Black orcs are rediculously big, especially their hands. Their hands dwarf those of ogres. They do have better armour than Ironjaws, it seems functional.

I put a sword in the hand of that one because one of my players liked the model for his orc PC. Quite easy to drill a 3mm hole through his hands though. After this campaign, that orc is a large creature (25mm base under him there).

 

[Spiky Norman]

Ardboys are the Marauders of the Orruk Warclans.
Their sculpt is old, dated and sticks out in Ironjawz, plus their warscroll is frustratingly good, so that often times you feel a bit of a pressure to include them, even with the models shortfalls.

That's how I feel, at least. So I wouldn't mind a swap of the +to Charge from Ardboys to Brutes (or another buff), and then let the Ardboys fade away till we get a new sculpt that can replace the unit in the bodies on the board part.

[PainfullyMediocre]

19 hours ago, Vasshpit said:

@SunStorm Really nice work there!

He looks to be on par scale wise but you can tell the artist gave them different anatomical proportions! My idea was to use him as a MawKrusha Boss or given his wounds, a Gordrakk conversion. 

Nice! I may still pick up that half of BB off Ebay. I'll wait awhile and see what GWs brings out for them first. 

I don't know if this will help, I can get a pic of them next to each other tonight, but here he is next to a Warchanter.

 

edit: I converted my Ardboyz from Blood Bowl Orcs and spare savage Orruk weapons, they match the Brutes a bit better and look less elite but still badass.

Edited March 10, 2021 by PainfullyMediocre

[Vasshpit]

Good morning all. Thanks for the size comp reference pics! I'm still undecided if ill be using the BB black  orcs for any kind of conversions as of yet but those wonderful pics above are great inspiration non the less.

@PlasticCraic In regards to overlap. Lets start by reiterating the fact the The Old World was wiped clean and with it the iconic Black Orc. They were the biggest, meanest, and greenest things around and rightly so. Enter the age of chaos were as most other races and factions were still hiding, etc, Orcs (Orruks) continued to do what they do best. They regarded this as a blessing from Gorkamorka as they saw continuous never ending  battle on a level never seen before. And in doing so grew larger, more aggressive, and battle hardened than their Black Orc predecessors. Hell, the basic foot boy was now larger than most Warbooses before. They payed their dues in blood and this gave way to a new breed of orc (orruk), the mother trucking Ironjawz.

Now when A0S first released and Jawz being an early first,  I really think GW wasn't %100 sure on what direction to go with AoS. Is it a skirmish, is it a large scale army game, etc, so they threw Ardboyz in there to help fill out the roster without having to make new models and such. They retained all there current design lore as being this serious and more regimental version of Orc they are, where as now they are no longer the top of the food chain. (apparently they just sat back through they age of chaos.  0_o ) So in this regard they are just smaller versions of this new breed.

So now we have a brand new setting and two Orruk breeds. One that payed their dues and ones that just didn't die off from the complete eradication of the the old world. GW has hinted at many times here and there that Jawz are not just mindless ravaging hordes but actually cunning for orruks, just like their now weedy Ardboy cousins,  and even though their armor and weapon designs are much different you can see that Jawz still fashion theirs in a functional and intricate way also similarly to the way black orcs do/did. They just do it with their hands and dont forge it or have Grots build it for them. 

So now we have this large, cunning, (for orruks at least) battle hardened, heavily armored breed and essentially a smaller version of the same thing. Only they have a stick with some cloth and a drum that makes them better.... A stick and a drum. GW could easily rectify this by including a small upgrade sprue for the existing Brutes kit at the cost of a small $$$ update. Give it those two options and a couple shields and BAM you have removed, simplified, consolidated and updated this now subfaction by making Brutes the basic infantry unit. This paves the way for the often suggested larger elite, ELITE, Ironjawz unit. Something in between Brute and Megaboss size.

Now if Jawz had stayed just Jawz and weren't consolidated into warclans then I could see a place going forward for ardoyz BUT we now have Bonesplitterz to play with. A smaller 2 wound Orruk that is more in line with larger blobs of models.

So now we have large elite orruks, small horde orruks and small elite orruks. This is were my overlap opinion stems from and with the consolidation of Jawz and Bonez the only way forward is updates, new tools and new toys to this now consolidated  faction. I just dont see the need or even room for ardboyz in the whole grand design of things.

And now with the TOW coming back just makes it all the more reason to remove them from this setting.

@Aelfric Made a good point about the lore being frustrating and vague. In truth its still in the early years of AoS compared to TOW and Destruction hasn't had all that much to boot. So its still early enough to make changes and establish a base line foundational setting.

@Wobbly also makes some good points about orruks going from ardboys to Jawz or Bonez to Jawz, etc. 

There's tons of room here for opinions and solutions going either way.

in conclusion Its my opinion that GW chose to destroy the TOW and they should own that and make something new and stop recycling old ideas.

Let this new setting take shape. Let Ironjawz become to future Orruk (orc) fans what the iconic  Ardboyz (black orcs) were to TOW fans.

Or what was even the point in destroying it in the first place.

Solve et coagula.

Edited March 10, 2021 by Vasshpit

[Ganigumo]

My 10 cents is that I would like to see 'Ardboys be a little less "elite" than they are at the moment (ruleswise they're stronger than chaos warriors), becoming a proper horde of Ironjawz Groupies, but that's more from a rules perspective than a narrative one. I wouldn't say no to new 'ardboy models though, I don't think the current ones are bad but having a new kit that fits in with the ironjawz aesthetic a bit better would be great.

Honestly I view Ironjawz as a largely "complete" faction. It knows what it wants to do, and everything in the army is built for that purpose with no fat. To me the future of Orruks is in new clans.

[Souleater]

Man, this is like folks killing off Firstborn marines in favour of Primaris. 

 

Have you no respect for the OG Black Orcs? Sad times. 😭

Edited March 10, 2021 by Souleater
Rum.

[Vasshpit]

@Souleater To the contrary I have nothing but!!

Also that setting is still active and growing albeit slowly.  The setting that the "OG"s were such an iconic part of was disintegrated!! Oh and it's coming back. 

This isnt The Old World any more. Ironjawz aren't black orcs. They're different. 

That's all I'm saying. Let's evolve and grow just like the Ironjawz had to. 😉

Edited March 10, 2021 by Vasshpit

[Popisdead]

On 3/5/2021 at 10:50 AM, Vasshpit said:

With the announcement of the Old World I feel like they need to go back there. 

...

In conclusion I think they should just be removed and left to the old world. 

People will have to stop bringing up they are "going back to the old world".   You aren't getting back Fantasy with your old toys.  Either play AoS for now or don't.  

Are you also advocating for them to be created by the Chaos Dwarfs still?  I would be on board with that.  That lore was cool and the side bar in Wulfrik's novel was enjoyable to read.

A really good solution to things like this is, ignore it and move on.  If you don't like Ard Boys is someone demanding your play them that necessitates wanting them removed from the game?  Just let people have their toys.  Enough of GW's model range is changing.  

[SunStorm]

3 hours ago, Souleater said:

Man, this is like folks killing off Firstborn marines in favour of Primaris. 

 

Have you no respect for the OG Black Orcs? Sad times. 😭

As a Chaos Dwarf fan, the lore behind Black is amazing.  My beef is just the look of the Ardboyz kit compared to the rest of the IJ range.

@PlasticCraic Good call, I hadn't considered the head swaps, i'm sure I've got spare brute/grunta heads to try this.

[Vasshpit]

@Popisdead I almost mentioned the chaos dwarves part. I do not know enough about them so is that official cannon?

Also I didnt quite understand your Old world point. It's coming back...🤔

And at your ignore it point, I'm a fan and wanted to know how others felt about something that I feel strongly about. This is a forum for discussion of this setting we all enjoy is it not? If High Aelves and other factions can be totally rebooted in a sense why not Orruks.  Yes I'd rather they were removed but if they stay, they stay, if not then no worries. Its like you said I dont have to use them. But like @Ganigumo and others have pointed out their warscroll is just too good to pass on which is just beyond silly to me!!🤪

I just feel there is way more than enough creative room for Jawz to stand on their own in this new setting than to have and rely on left overs from a canceled one. Even ones as cool and iconic as Black Orcs. 

Edited March 10, 2021 by Vasshpit

[zilberfrid]

On 3/9/2021 at 3:09 PM, SunStorm said:

I'm afraid I've already chopped Ghoulchewer in half and I'm currently working on painting him up as a Gore Grunta Boss...

In terms of size, his upper torso isn't far off the megaboss,  which you can sort of see above. His actual legs are tiny however, I assume due to needing to fit onto a 32mm base.

I'm undecided what to do with the rest of the team. I might yet end up messing around with my bitsbox and making them into something for AoS. 

The rest of the team are good (mostly) armoured goblin sculpts, plus a few GorkaMorka symbols.

Sadly, not a lot of armoured goblins in AoS. Boingrots seem to be the only ones. Also not a lot of other small folk.

One option would be to make them the basis of Grotbag Scuttler infantry.

Edited March 11, 2021 by zilberfrid

[PlasticCraic]

11 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

Honestly I view Ironjawz as a largely "complete" faction. It knows what it wants to do, and everything in the army is built for that purpose with no fat. To me the future of Orruks is in new clans.

Agree with most of what you've said but all I would add is that in terms of whether the current Ironjawz range is complete, I'd like to bang the drum for a Megaboss on Gore Grunta.

That would give us that mid-range hero who can get around the board and give out Command Abilities (without needing to sink a quarter of your army into it). 

[Aelfric]

15 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

Honestly I view Ironjawz as a largely "complete" faction. It knows what it wants to do, and everything in the army is built for that purpose with no fat. To me the future of Orruks is in new clans.

Although Ironjawz may be 'complete' from a playing perspective,  I don't feel it is from a collecting and painting one.  Personally, I would love there to be further models to add to my forces.  They may or may not be optimal from a competitive angle, but some of us are not always looking for optimal but variety - both for collecting and putting on the table.  Anyway, I find that the in-game power of individual units waxes and wanes over time anyway, so at some point I'm sure they would become optimal.  I want some fat in my army; it will help get us through the lean times.

 

 

Edited March 11, 2021 by Aelfric

[zilberfrid]

6 minutes ago, Aelfric said:

Although Ironjawz may be 'complete' from a playing perspective,  I don't feel it is from a collecting and painting one.  Personally, I would love there to be further models to add to my forces.  They may or may not be optimal from a competitive angle, but some of us are not always looking for optimal but variety - both for collecting and putting on the table.  Anyway, I find that the in-game power of individual units waxes and wanes over time anyway, so at some point I'm sure they would become optimal.  I want some fat in my army; it will help get us through the lean times.

I do agree with this. Ironjaws has less design variety than Stormcast.

Maybe lean into the difference more, instead of less.

Brutes fit the design languages of the other new sculpts better, but why not give the Ardboys shape their own line?

Maybe get some young Ardboys, who have not yet encased themselves as fully, but are quicker, or rhinoceros chariots, or (armoured) wolverine drawn sleds or even... ranged tools!

[Aelfric]

58 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

I do agree with this. Ironjaws has less design variety than Stormcast.

Maybe lean into the difference more, instead of less.

Brutes fit the design languages of the other new sculpts better, but why not give the Ardboys shape their own line?

Maybe get some young Ardboys, who have not yet encased themselves as fully, but are quicker, or rhinoceros chariots, or (armoured) wolverine drawn sleds or even... ranged tools!

Exactly! I'd especially love a chariot.  I have even trawled through my old metal orcs to find the ten largest so they can be my new Ardboy recruits.  They do stand out, with their mismatched armour and slightly smaller stature, but then that's the point in a way.

[SunStorm]

So here are my current Ardboyz, 6 blood bowl plastic orcs given random orc weapons I had lying around:

Plus the 4 Ironskull's boyz makes 10 in total. 

I have plans for another 5, including a banner bearer to bring it up to  a unit of 15.