novakai Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 20 hours ago, LuminethMage said: I'm just posting the results from Vince's Warhammer Weekly surveys one more time. Had around the same responses, but asked for armies played. The blue one is from mid-last year, when the LRL weren't fully released yet, and the other one is just from a few weeks ago. The blue one only allowed for responding with one faction, the green one allowed for multiple choices. There are quite some differences which could be fun to speculate about, although I don't think we have enough data yet. But there could be a big discrepancy for some armies that are well liked, but still not being played that much (pricing could be an issue, difficulty of painting them etc.). Or there could be none, because most people equate "like" with "play". i think it easy to explain why SCE are the most own army here, both being a starter set army and market to the beginner crowd. they are just probably not someone favorite army, people probably branch off SCE once they made a 2000 point army to another army they personally like more. a lot of people probably have SCE but it maybe their secondary or tertiary army they play as oppose to their main. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harioch Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 I don't understand the need to merge the Duardin. Fyreslayers can be a strong concept and can be expended a lot (I saw many good ideas in here and on reddit). Merging would not only mean less thematic releases for both sides but also making a melting pot of two/three strong different themes in a faction. To me if GW merges the duardin it will be like the Orruks or Legion of Nagash. To make a battletome up to the rules standard of a new edition until more releases are planned and then splitting again (we're coming to see that for LoN, let's see for the Orruks in the future). In that case let's merge DoK and Idoneth after all. Then they will match Lumineth and Stormcasts in kits..and for those who wants to play Kharadrons, Fyreslayers etc in the same army we can still use a CoS type of rules (becoming Cities of Order ?) or Grand Allegiance Order. I don't play duardins, never be fan of dwarves in any fantasy universe but to say that Fyreslayers are a weak concept, deserving to be shoved as extra units in a great duardin book seems kinda rude to those who adhere and love the concept in the first place 😄. Yes the all twelve of them. To me if there is not enough people interested in playing them is only because of the 2 kits variations for units and the price.. One thing I noticed recently is many people talking how to remake this faction concept or this one or rewrite their backgroung to the ground because it prevents them for buying and playing this same army. Not blaming anyone but I don't understand why. Not every faction need to be tailored to your personal tastes. Fluff wise or esthetically speaking. That's why you pick a faction at the end of the day. Because some are less appealing to you and that's fine. Others will love them (and I know what I'm talking about I love the Ossiarch even when they divided people for what they looked like on their release 😅). Or you can still kitbash, make your own lore... Again sorry if I sound condescending or harsh. It's really not intended at all. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuminethMage Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 10 minutes ago, novakai said: i think it easy to explain why SCE are the most own army here, both being a starter set army and market to the beginner crowd. they are just probably not someone favorite army, people probably branch off SCE once they made a 2000 point army to another army they personally like more. a lot of people probably have SCE but it maybe their secondary or tertiary army they play as oppose to their main. Depends probably on how people understood the question in that survey, which was something like “which army (armies for the 2nd one) are you playing”. Stormcast are definitely meant to be a beginners army, that’s true. The survey didn’t ask which army you own, if remember correctly. Could be wrong though, and anyway people or at least a sizable part of the responders could have understood it in that way. Stormcast seem popular though in the own respect, if you judge by posts here on the forums, Instagram images, people who play them in Soulbound etc. Thats why it’s good to get more such surveys with slightly different questions, and also carried out among a different crowd. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beliman Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 7 hours ago, Feii said: The thing is all those concepts would also work for human faction which would sell much better. Crazy zealots of fire that sometimes mutate and turn into hulki monsters and are used to move around warmachines, female who are independent and valkyries like being if they ascend by showing deeds in battles and embedding more runes into their bodies. Also they would have beast tamers for taming lava creatures and then riding them to the battle. The whole faction fantasy gets only weaker by making them dwarves and that makes it a weak concept. FALSE! Everything is better if it comes from a dwarf. 7 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feii Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 2 hours ago, Beliman said: FALSE! Everything is better if it comes from a dwarf. then why don't people buy it? failed concept 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Under the Mountain Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Feii said: then why don't people buy it? failed concept Because GW was very conservative with the original miniature design. Add some more unique characters, some female Dwarfs and more creatures/war machines and I guarantee it would sell better. Also I believe GW strayed too far from what made Slayers so beloved by the Fantasy Community. Edited February 18, 2021 by King Under the Mountain 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feii Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 Just now, King Under the Mountain said: Because GW was very conservative with the original miniature design. Add some more unique characters, some female Dwarfs and more creatures/war machines. they would still be honorless mercenary pieces of sh*t called fake dwarves by Gotrek. Do you like that concept as a dwarf player? (for non chaos dwarfs) 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Under the Mountain Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 (edited) 1 minute ago, Feii said: they would still be honorless mercenary pieces of sh*t called fake dwarves by Gotrek. Do you like that concept as a dwarf player? (for non chaos dwarfs) I do agree haha, see my edit of the last post. Edited February 18, 2021 by King Under the Mountain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feii Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 1 minute ago, King Under the Mountain said: I do agree haha, see my edit of the last post. I think similarly, I like how the whole slayer ritual in the old fantasy was to redeem yourself and die for your sins. (not in a Jesus kind of way but a proper dawi way) It would be more interesting if the order slayers in AoS had this moral dilema of how do you rebuild your god if all these different factions do have the pieces of him. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beliman Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Feii said: then why don't people buy it? failed concept We can only speculate. Imho, it's not just because they are dwarf, but an amalgam of problems: They were one of the most expensive armies at the time. With point 1 in mind, their troops were the main base of competivity and didn't help to be one of the most expensive battlelines troops in the whole game. The whole range, even if the concept was good, was made of the same miniature with 1-2 variations. The quality of the sculpts was on the low end (mainly the arms with axes). The Underworlds band helped a lot to see how good they are. The first battletome was realeased in the "dark age of AoS" (2015-2016) and it didn't help that the next one was3 years later (2019). Painting 80 nacked dwarfs probably stop A LOT of painters to take them. Magmadroths helps a bit but maybe with 2-3 new troops with new crazy designs could do the work. I know that there are a lot of other points to take in consideration (no hype build-up, SC coming really late, no Battleforce, etc...), but that's just a few ones that came to my mind. Edited February 18, 2021 by Beliman 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Under the Mountain Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 I do think its funny that Gravelords got so many votes for an army that we know almost next to nothing about. The hype is real. Might have to rename myself "Count under the Crypt" 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skreech Verminking Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 (edited) Technical issue, sorry Edited February 18, 2021 by Skreech Verminking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skreech Verminking Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 7 hours ago, Feii said: then why don't people buy it? failed concept B’cause I love my Disposseseds, and I currently can’t quite fit in some Fyreslayers b’cause rules. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doko Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 If fyreslayers get a battleforce or dual army box they gonna be at the lvl of the median for sure. Every aos faction have got any special box(battleforce,dual army,skirmish,warcry,allys box etc) but fyreslayers. Only fyreslayers got 0 This is the main reason that they are last in play rate. Also i dont think gw gonna abandon them when they got shadespire box,terrain and endless spells when many other armys that are in the top of popularity as city of sigmar didnt got. They only need a bundle boxe to be popular or new units Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feii Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 12 minutes ago, Doko said: Every aos faction have got any special box(battleforce,dual army,skirmish,warcry,allys box etc) but fyreslayers. that's why the LRL are the most played faction on TTS and consistently is ranking super high in army surveys (like the TGA poll where it was the first)? Even before the second wave. (about the TTS stats they had the second highest playrate in TTS tournament in time period from february 2020 to february 2021 even though they were released in June 2020) No, fyreslayers are just a concept that isn't very likeable on its own and where there are armies yet to be released that have already more potential players than fyreslayers the real ones why should GW put effort into a failed project? The development time isn't worth it. We need skaven/seraphon revamp, khorne update, Malerion/Tirion/KO second wave. Give grugni a real dwarven faction and roll the fyreslayers into them. They can be the elite warriors/fighters in that army. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Televiper11 Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 I just want to see Dispossessed continue to exist. They’re great models with great lore. A Duardin United tome would let them hire Fyreslayer mercs to help them go out and reclaim their holds. It writes itself and a combined force would be awesome on the table. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indecisive Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 On 2/17/2021 at 7:08 AM, silverstu said: I think thats the problem with Fyreslayers as well- the early factions are designed to be small and maybe have less of an inbuilt way to expand them whereas later factions are are more setup to expand [especially like Lumineth with their temples and twin factions]. Orcs will probably get expanded in the next round if they continue with faction updates- wether that is adding to existing factions or adding more variety remains to be seen. KO look to me to be a successful separate faction they could continue to expand so I don't see them adding them with other dwarfs. I think its more likely we will see a new dwarf faction under Grungni which might take in other existing dwarf factions like the dispossessed. But they might well be independent and live them where they are [the way high elf forces stayed with Cities when the Lumineth arrived.] Yep, Slayers: the army really is the most one-note army premise they've made. IJ were basically Black Orcs: the army but they've got more room to play if GW decides to not overly lean on bigger black orcs as the theme for aos orruks going forward Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirSalabean Posted February 18, 2021 Author Share Posted February 18, 2021 It’s all quite funny as this poll stemmed from an aelves vs dwarves discussion from the rumour thread... I think aelves are clearly the best 😂 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zilberfrid Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 19 minutes ago, SirSalabean said: It’s all quite funny as this poll stemmed from an aelves vs dwarves discussion from the rumour thread... I think aelves are clearly the best 😂 Dwarves: One tiny army (Fyreslayers) One small army (Kharadron) A bit in Cities Elves: One big army (Lumineth) One medium army (Daughters) One small army (Idoneth) Sylvaneth/Kurnothi About double in Cities Elves probably have over twice the amount of sets available (if you count the Lumineth that are not yet out). And that is counting the different Fyreslayer heroes as truly different, which is quite generous. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirSalabean Posted February 18, 2021 Author Share Posted February 18, 2021 2 minutes ago, zilberfrid said: Dwarves: One tiny army (Fyreslayers) One small army (Kharadron) A bit in Cities Elves: One big army (Lumineth) One medium army (Daughters) One small army (Idoneth) Sylvaneth/Kurnothi About double in Cities Elves probably have over twice the amount of sets available (if you count the Lumineth that are not yet out). And that is counting the different Fyreslayer heroes as truly different, which is quite generous. I wasn’t making a dig at all it was a lighthearted joke I prefer aelves but what’s best is dependent on the person. Hence why I like doing polls as it provides interesting pictures. I hope dwarves get more love 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Eligos Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 (edited) 52 minutes ago, SirSalabean said: It’s all quite funny as this poll stemmed from an aelves vs dwarves discussion from the rumour thread... I think aelves are clearly the best 😂 This only holds water if you take into accounts the least popular Duardin faction and disregard the fact that Aelves are getting more support atm than any other fantasy race. I mean we are literally in a narrative entirely centered on Aelven gods. Hell, even if Morathi just got an entire narrative shaping campaign book for her, that DoK got the latest versus boxset and are presently being hyped for their newest battletome…. Even with all that they aren’t “more popular” than the Kharadron Overlords. Why such? I personally prefer Duardin over Aelves, the difference is that I don’t try to prove that one is “better” than the other since I realise that those tropes attract different peoples and that people interest in things is heavily influenced by the amount of efforts put into any given faction. As for Fyreslayers, I honestly think that what holds back the army is that the dual Hearthguard kit should never have been made. It doesn’t add anything to the faction. If they weren’t a thing, we would be speculating about what type of cool elite Spartan berserker duardin would come next. It would also be easier to tolerate an army with limited aesthetic if it only had one battleline and a monster (plus heroes). Edited February 18, 2021 by Duke Eligos 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doko Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 3 hours ago, Feii said: that's why the LRL are the most played faction on TTS and consistently is ranking super high in army surveys (like the TGA poll where it was the first)? Even before the second wave. (about the TTS stats they had the second highest playrate in TTS tournament in time period from february 2020 to february 2021 even though they were released in June 2020) No, fyreslayers are just a concept that isn't very likeable on its own and where there are armies yet to be released that have already more potential players than fyreslayers the real ones why should GW put effort into a failed project? The development time isn't worth it. We need skaven/seraphon revamp, khorne update, Malerion/Tirion/KO second wave. Give grugni a real dwarven faction and roll the fyreslayers into them. They can be the elite warriors/fighters in that army. No,lumineths have that playrate in tts because they are broken and are overpower,in tts where people dont have to build or spend money its obious that who want win only can play with seraphon\lumineth\idoneths. And in reallife lumineths got allready his special box even before than his ofitial release....... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feii Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 3 minutes ago, Doko said: No,lumineths have that playrate in tts because they are broken and are overpower,in tts where people dont have to build or spend money its obious that who want win only can play with seraphon\lumineth\idoneths. And in reallife lumineths got allready his special box even before than his ofitial release....... ah yes the LL are op thats why most faction have sub 50% winrate and 2 of them are below 40% according to data just one build (Syar) is performing very well at almost 60% winrate. High elves have been the most popular old world army, elves are the most popular AoS armies, elves just sell better than dwarves as sad as it might be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doko Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 (edited) Up to you,some people who knows how read number showed how winnrate dont matter(novices playin the flavour of the month faction and loosing) and lumineths are the second army with more tournaments podiuns. Also i dont know because you are everytime saying that elfs are the most popular and dwarf arent popular\must be deleted\are ugly etc etc. Plz a respect for dwarf players if you want that people dont take you as a hater of dwarf and only ignore you For the record,dwarfs were the 8th more played faction and high elfs 4th. So neither dwarf are last or high elfs were the more popular https://www.tabletoptournaments.net/t3_armies.php?cid=0 Edited February 19, 2021 by Doko 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NinthMusketeer Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 (edited) Fyreslayers have a lot going against them beyond theme; -Tiny unit roster. Literally the army has three infantry units and the rest is heroes. -Lack of distinction. Said three infantry units all look very similar on the tabletop, and blend in with the foot heroes. -Price. Building a decent Fyreslayer army is absurdly expensive because those units have an insane cost relative to the number you need. On top of that their heroes have all gone direct only. The infantry NEED to be reboxed at a lower price per model to make the army a commercial success. This is almost certainly a case where GW pushed the prices beyond what the community would accept and ended up with less money than they would have had with lower prices. -Internal balance. Vulkite berzerkers exist for theme only, because hearthguard berzerkers do what they do but are massively better at it. The three-unit roster just dropped to two. The characters suffer similarly, especially with magmadroths largely being less effective than more stuff on foot. You basically end up with an army that has less than 10 viable choices to put on the table. To shoot customization in the foot further, certain heroes are basically mandatory to make the army work. Edited February 19, 2021 by NinthMusketeer 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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