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What would you like for AoS 3


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2 hours ago, Mcthew said:

Double-turn aside, I'd love there to be a solid  campaign mechanic for AoS 3.0 (match-play/competitive players should look away now 😁).  Afterall, everyone enjoys a good story to frame an epic battle on, don't they??

I'm hoping they take some of the ideas from Crusade and bring them over. There was also that system for creating unique characters for AoS. I'm completely blanking on the name of it. I'd like that but with a bit more effort put into it as well. Most of my friends and I are pretty willing to put in that extra effort but it's sure nice when we don't have to.

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Honestly I feel like if you want the double turn removed AoS is not for you, it's a core mechanic of the game and one that separates it from other similar games, I do agree however with the sentiment

It seems like they don't want new players to join the game. With the removal of the double turn so many players would have come back or joined for the 1st time, but no let's band-aid this horrid mecha

The issue with double turn is that it is never, ever used as a reason to play the game. It is only ever brought up by people disliking it and the hardcore AOS fans trying to defend its inclusion. It i

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Funny thing about double turn is that it worked actually good in LOTR. But LOTR had alternating phases, not turns, and there was the Might points mechanic where units around heroes were allowed to ignore the random priority if you spent them. I would n't mind if AoS had those.

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11 minutes ago, dekay said:

Funny thing about double turn is that it worked actually good in LOTR. But LOTR had alternating phases, not turns, and there was the Might points mechanic where units around heroes were allowed to ignore the random priority if you spent them. I would n't mind if AoS had those.

If they wanted to bring alternating phases in I would be ecstatic. I have a feeling some grognards may not go for it but my goodness would I be excited.

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I'd be thrilled if they adapted LotR mechanics. Absolutely brilliant system. The way Heroes interact with the turn structure and their units is so well done. Far more enjoyable than auras/CP 

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Yep, LOTR has far better game mechanics than either 40k or AOS. Though you'd have to do pretty major surgery on the system to make it work with the amount of models you have in the warhammer games. As good as it is, LOTR's system already splutters badly above about 700ish points.

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I hate double turns with a passion. So many good games that got ruined by it (regardless if I won or lost) Too much of the game resting on one single roll off.

Shooting shouldn't be the dominating meta across the board as it is for so many armies. IMO that's what should make AOS unique rather than turning into fantasy themed 40k. Obviously related to double turns as well but the fact GW keep releasing shooty armies that also dumps mortal wounds without requiring LoS doesn't help to make the game better either.

Battleshock needs a rework since it has so many work arounds I feel like it's hardly ever a thing.

If shooting meta persists I feel like we need a scenery/cover rework like they did for 40k.

 

 

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12 hours ago, yukishiro1 said:

It would be just like GW to put in the ability to get MWs on a 5+ to hit, rerolling, at 30" range, with the option to ignore LOS...and then suddenly decide from the next book that MWs on 6s to hit were too powerful. 

I mean, yes, it is. Less mortal wounds would be really nice in AoS.

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Oh, I don't disagree. Just think it's pretty funny to see MWs on a 5+ to hit with 30" ranged attacks coexisting with "we can't give these units mortals on 6s to hit in melee, that's too powerful!"

But then, I guess there wasn't enough data to know whether said 5+ to hit MWs rerolling was actually a problem or not. 

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5 hours ago, yukishiro1 said:

Oh, I don't disagree. Just think it's pretty funny to see MWs on a 5+ to hit with 30" ranged attacks coexisting with "we can't give these units mortals on 6s to hit in melee, that's too powerful!"

Nah, it is obvious that some factions are more equal than others 😜

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8 hours ago, yukishiro1 said:

Oh, I don't disagree. Just think it's pretty funny to see MWs on a 5+ to hit with 30" ranged attacks coexisting with "we can't give these units mortals on 6s to hit in melee, that's too powerful!"

But then, I guess there wasn't enough data to know whether said 5+ to hit MWs rerolling was actually a problem or not. 

they already pooped the bed, but the answer isn't to shrug and go "Well I guess since we did it once this bed we sleep in is now also our toilet"

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9 hours ago, yukishiro1 said:

Oh, I don't disagree. Just think it's pretty funny to see MWs on a 5+ to hit with 30" ranged attacks coexisting with "we can't give these units mortals on 6s to hit in melee, that's too powerful!"

But then, I guess there wasn't enough data to know whether said 5+ to hit MWs rerolling was actually a problem or not. 

How many dice are these units rolling?

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On 2/9/2021 at 7:06 AM, Sleboda said:

I, on the other hand, want to see more ways to remove the influence of dice. Make more things auto.

Nothing stinks quite like coming up with a plan, executing it perfectly, and saying "I just need two of these 10 dice to roll anything but ones and I'll win" only to roll 10 see and see 10 ones.

Games like Super Fantasy Brawl and Bloodborne manage to be great without dice, and they make me really feel the pain of dice luck in GW games.

I think that they are of the mindset that guessing ranges, and having modifiers tables slow the game...so they add dice to the roll to manipulate the propabilities which some times unfortunately has catastrophic consequences.

I think if some of the "old" things  made a comeback they would help the game a bit

Running with no dice (marching)

Marchblocking

Charging without dice

Charging Reactions  

shooting modifiers for attacks (shooting through screening units, shooting Long Distance, Shooting in Close combat)...

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5 hours ago, stratigo said:

they already pooped the bed, but the answer isn't to shrug and go "Well I guess since we did it once this bed we sleep in is now also our toilet"

But isn't that exactly what they did, by refusing to make any changes during the winter FAQ because of a supposed lack of data?

To use your metaphor, they seem to have said "never again will we poop the bed! no siree!" while leaving the old poop right there in the bed with all of us. with the explanation that actually there's not a lot of data on how bad poop in the bed really is. 

 

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Slaanesh book seems underwhelming at first glance, while the DOK book seems like (almost) a strict upgrade over their previous one.

I genuinely hope every new AOS battletome is toned down like the new Slaanesh book - the game needs to take a step back and breathe after the insane power creep in 2.0.

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DoK book is a big nerf - an expected one, but a big nerf none-the-less. Changing stuff to "wholly within" fundamentally changes the way the army plays and is a massive decrease to threat ranges generally, and especially in the early game. 

Slaanesh looks underpowered until you consider summoning. I think we'll need to see how it actually plays out. Unfortunately, the nature of mechanic seems likely to lead to the same basic problems we had before re: certain builds being just much better than others because they take more advantage of the depravity generation. 

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5 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Slaanesh book seems underwhelming at first glance, while the DOK book seems like (almost) a strict upgrade over their previous one.

I genuinely hope every new AOS battletome is toned down like the new Slaanesh book - the game needs to take a step back and breathe after the insane power creep in 2.0.

Thank you! Exactly what I think since DoT started becoming insane (like pre nerf Slaanesh, Karadron, OBR,...).

I think if every army takes a step back, then we will have more exciting games instead of battles which end in turn 2 or 3.

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It's quite sad in a way that the Slaanesh book steers away from crazy units and abilities that do millions of mortal wounds at range, and people find it underwhelming. I get it, because there are armies in the game that have that and we do seem underwhelming compared to them, but it's not a good thing that it's so common that units are disappointing when they don't have it. 

I think some mortal units may be costed too high, but generally their warscrolls are solid - not broken, not weak (well maybe poor Slaangors), but just solid  and we can use them in interesting ways. Nearly everything (sorry Slaangors) has a place and that's great. Importantly, it's healthy for the game at large.

I would really like AoS 3 to move towards this. Toning down the factions a bit so we move away from 15 MW at 18" range and move back to two forces clashing and the winner more being decided on tactics rather than combos within a list. 

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Slaangors are the worst, but the 2W melee infantry is pretty terrible for the points, too. I have a feeling you may see a ton of MSU blissbarb seeker spam armies that are going to make people say "you know, actually, eels weren't so bad...at least they had to get into melee with you and live to T3 to power up." I'm not saying it's going to necessarily take over the game, mind you - just that people may get very sick of it. I am not convinced the internal balance in the new Slaanesh book is very good at all, though I hope to be proved wrong. 

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The real lack of restrictions and downsides on shooting do need to be addressed, because it's not just that some units have powerful range attacks, it's that they really suffer no adverse effects or have any downsides to being ranged.

AOS is really the only wargame I can recall that has such loose mechanics for its shooting phase. Not only being able to shoot into combats without penalty but units being able to shoot out of combat as well. Sure, in the latter they have to target what is in engagement range but from a gameplay and even immersion perspective it is completely nonsensical. It's a core concept of wargames, tabletop or video, that ranged units are good because they can cause damage to your opponent without having to put themselves in direct harm and the way to really counter this is to engage and lock them down in melee. Alternatively you lockdown their friendly units so you restrict their number of targets available or make it a risk to keep shooting you for fear of hitting their own troops.

Combine this with non-existent actually useful terrain or LOS rules and of course you have a recipe for a shooting meta.

40k 9th manages this whole thing pretty well currently. Only certain weapons or unit types are capable of shooting while engaged in combat, and in a lot of cases with a penalty. Plus, it all makes logical sense what can and cannot do it.

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3 hours ago, Bosskelot said:

40k 9th manages this whole thing pretty well currently. Only certain weapons or unit types are capable of shooting while engaged in combat, and in a lot of cases with a penalty. Plus, it all makes logical sense what can and cannot do it.

I agree with your whole post and shooting needs to be adressed in future edition.

I will add that shooting, while engaged, into the enemy unit could be a special rule for good and quick archers (think Legolas) instead of being the default situation. But that's just me, because we're pretty limited right now to "run and shoot" and "exploding 6s" to special rules for shooting units.

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On 2/13/2021 at 11:36 AM, Nostrammo said:

I think that they are of the mindset that guessing ranges, and having modifiers tables slow the game...so they add dice to the roll to manipulate the propabilities which some times unfortunately has catastrophic consequences.

I think if some of the "old" things  made a comeback they would help the game a bit

Running with no dice (marching)

Marchblocking

Charging without dice

Charging Reactions  

shooting modifiers for attacks (shooting through screening units, shooting Long Distance, Shooting in Close combat)...

Sooooo ... Warhammer Fantasy Battle then?

;)

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Shooting clearly needs a rework. I played WHFB for a long time before coming to AoS, and I was baffled by the lack of modifiers that apply to shooting. It also makes fly more of a liability than anything else most of the time, as you have zero chance of hiding fliers from shooters. Our meta is casual as hell and very tiny, and I'm almost always facing a Sylvaneth player with 3-4 units of Kurnoth Hunters who snipes every single one of my support heroes out by turn 2 at the latest. 

Battleshock is also utterly useless right now. I've seen a few suggestions for a forced retreat throughout the thread, which I think is a great idea. Even the current rule is fine as long as there's not such easy access to battleshock immunity. Break tests could make or break you in WHFB if you didn't properly prepare for them. I'm not saying that AoS needs to be more like WHFB (I like how much faster it is) but it shouldn't have a key mechanic that's basically a non-issue 95% of the time. 

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