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What would you like for AoS 3


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8 hours ago, Keilerei said:

Getting rid of Auto-xx.

eg. Teleports, casts/unbind, destiny die. This is a Dice game, Skaven and Gitz do This in a cool risk and reward way, everything That happens automatically without giving at least a chance of interaction or is without consequences is just unfun to Play against.

I, on the other hand, want to see more ways to remove the influence of dice. Make more things auto.

Nothing stinks quite like coming up with a plan, executing it perfectly, and saying "I just need two of these 10 dice to roll anything but ones and I'll win" only to roll 10 see and see 10 ones.

Games like Super Fantasy Brawl and Bloodborne manage to be great without dice, and they make me really feel the pain of dice luck in GW games.

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Honestly I feel like if you want the double turn removed AoS is not for you, it's a core mechanic of the game and one that separates it from other similar games, I do agree however with the sentiment

It seems like they don't want new players to join the game. With the removal of the double turn so many players would have come back or joined for the 1st time, but no let's band-aid this horrid mecha

The issue with double turn is that it is never, ever used as a reason to play the game. It is only ever brought up by people disliking it and the hardcore AOS fans trying to defend its inclusion. It i

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What I want is probably too controversial for most people but basically I would like to make the game much much simpler on some areas while making it more complex / interesting in other areas. Here's my idea basically: 

Make the combat and many aspects of it much simpler. I'm talking warcry level simple (without crit unless unit has special rule). One roll to hit the target and then one save roll maybe. No more weird rerolls and massive rule stackings. BUT... I would also introduce warcry style activations, you activate 1 unit at the time, do like 1 move action and 1 attack action (which is either shoot or melee, but no double attack actions and move always before attack) and you and opponent keep alternating activations until both have activated all units. Hero phase and bshock phase would be seperate but players would still alternate which hero casts spell first etc. The reason for simpler combat is to make game faster because alternating actions for every unit makes game slower so some balance is needed.

Obviously this would require major rework and it would invalidate all current btomes and general's handbooks, but gw does that every now and then, so if they do it for aos, I want something big like this.

In terms of updating basic aos, besides toning some of the bs that is present in the game currently (activation wars, tellyporta armies, super alpha strike forces, megashootas, power spells), I would remove double turn. I know some people like it but I know for a fact that that mechanic has ruined more games for me than anything else in the game. Learn2play argument doesn't really fly here because of the "fun" mechanics I listed above. I also know personally players who have either quit or never started aos because of that mechanic. Double turn worked in aos 1.0 starter set, it doesn't work anymore.

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1 hour ago, Sleboda said:

I, on the other hand, want to see more ways to remove the influence of dice. Make more things auto.

Nothing stinks quite like coming up with a plan, executing it perfectly, and saying "I just need two of these 10 dice to roll anything but ones and I'll win" only to roll 10 see and see 10 ones.

Games like Super Fantasy Brawl and Bloodborne manage to be great without dice, and they make me really feel the pain of dice luck in GW games.

I see your point and i am with you, relying only on luck is bad. But then again there are ways around this, without beeing automatically, like clever uses of your combos, positioning your Buff ranges. That is in my oppinion how it should work. Making things more conditional. You want a Secure charge, be sure to have a hero around. You Need to have a spell going off, your Wizard suffers d3 mortals. If autos are beeing kept,  they should come with a high price.

and tbh, everyone had lived through this, needing 3“ Charge with your hammer to secure kill, objective what ever, Rolling Snake Eyes. Sure tough luck, but it’s also fun for all on the table , makes up a good story and should you be at the (not) receiving end, you are happy that dice rolls still exist.

Autos are only fun for those that have them.

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14 hours ago, Keilerei said:

Getting rid of Auto-xx.

eg. Teleports, casts/unbind, destiny die. This is a Dice game, Skaven and Gitz do This in a cool risk and reward way, everything That happens automatically without giving at least a chance of interaction or is without consequences is just unfun to Play against.

Yeah Im really not a fan of non-interactive gameplay.

I might be biased because I play Tzeentch but destiny dice are 1) random and visible to both players prior to the game, so you know to a degree whats coming 2) limited resource, especially since you need to replace dice prior to rolling and you have to replace an entire charge/casting roll, but I dont see DD as terrible as Teclis auto casting/unbinding every single round etc.

This also includes stuff like Slaan/Kroak being boardwide with Comet's Call or unbinds. It means there is literally no way for you to prevent either thing with your positioning etc. I feel like this is boring and bad gameplay. 

Shooting units with 35"+ range is also terrible to play against since deployment/position means very little when the opponent has range over almost the entire board.

Units that can cover like 30" distance is also pretty tiresome to play against. 

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2 minutes ago, Kasper said:

Yeah Im really not a fan of non-interactive gameplay.

I might be biased because I play Tzeentch but destiny dice are 1) random and visible to both players prior to the game, so you know to a degree whats coming 2) limited resource, especially since you need to replace dice prior to rolling and you have to replace an entire charge/casting roll, but I dont see DD as terrible as Teclis auto casting/unbinding every single round etc.

This also includes stuff like Slaan/Kroak being boardwide with Comet's Call or unbinds. It means there is literally no way for you to prevent either thing with your positioning etc. I feel like this is boring and bad gameplay. 

Shooting units with 35"+ range is also terrible to play against since deployment/position means very little when the opponent has range over almost the entire board.

Units that can cover like 30" distance is also pretty tiresome to play against. 

Ok maybe DD are fair and can be played around, but in conjunction with other things tzeentch can do might feel a little oppressive. 
 

maybe my problem is actually „power creep“ newer factions get flashy new super strong things to make them interesting and older stuff does not need to get sold.

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Just now, Keilerei said:

Ok maybe DD are fair and can be played around, but in conjunction with other things tzeentch can do might feel a little oppressive. 
 

maybe my problem is actually „power creep“ newer factions get flashy new super strong things to make them interesting and older stuff does not need to get sold.

Well alas I might be biased ;) But I dont think DD are bad on their own - It does become troublesome when you start to pile on additional interactions ontop, like Changehost with the secured teleport, then DD a 9" charge with 20 Pinks. I just feel like DD isnt as gamebreaking in army lists without the Changehost ability.

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I wish we could just merge the shooting phase in the combat phase. 

Hero phase,movement, charge, combat,battleshock. So when in combat phase you can decide whether to use your ranged or your melee weapons.

This would fix double turn.

It would minimize down time (because the I go you go would also include ranged combat too).

Retreating would start making sense 

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29 minutes ago, Nostrammo said:

I wish we could just merge the shooting phase in the combat phase. 

Hero phase,movement, charge, combat,battleshock. So when in combat phase you can decide whether to use your ranged or your melee weapons.

This would fix double turn.

It would minimize down time (because the I go you go would also include ranged combat too).

Retreating would start making sense 

Hm, it would weaken shortrange shooting because those units often can only shoot if they are in nearly close range, but it would make long range shooting stronger (because it would basicly allow to shoot in your turn as well as in the opponents).

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3 hours ago, Kasper said:

Yeah Im really not a fan of non-interactive gameplay.

I might be biased because I play Tzeentch but destiny dice are 1) random and visible to both players prior to the game, so you know to a degree whats coming 2) limited resource, especially since you need to replace dice prior to rolling and you have to replace an entire charge/casting roll, but I dont see DD as terrible as Teclis auto casting/unbinding every single round etc.

This also includes stuff like Slaan/Kroak being boardwide with Comet's Call or unbinds. It means there is literally no way for you to prevent either thing with your positioning etc. I feel like this is boring and bad gameplay. 

Shooting units with 35"+ range is also terrible to play against since deployment/position means very little when the opponent has range over almost the entire board.

Units that can cover like 30" distance is also pretty tiresome to play against. 

Tzeentch are easily one of the least interactive armies out there for the opponent. You have no interaction whatsoever versus Destiny Dice, you just hope the Tzeentch player uses them badly. 

Dice matching while casting is incredibly strong, Changehost / Hosts Duplicitous have been some of the most oppressive lists to play against in the game with board presence, teleporting, output and durability. Not to mention the no retreat from duplicitous guaranteed with a DD charge which can take multiple units out the game for first crucial turns. 

On top of THAT, there are lots of armies out there that have no mitigation at all for guaranteed cast mortal wound output from range, so probably not the best example to use

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Automatic successes are fine for standard parts of the game. I.e. it wouldn't make sense if you had to role a 2+ to be allowed to move, with a 1 meaning you fell over your feet and had to stay still that round, because moving is a core part of the game that everyone can do.

But the probability of success should naturally diminish with the power of the effect being applied. Automatic, uncounterable teleports should be extremely limited - at most, maybe tied to one-use artefacts or allegiance abilities, not something you can just pop off one or more times per turn with no thinking about it. Ditto for automatic casts or unbinds.

Unfortunately, GW doesn't seem to properly understand how to value automatic successes. Again and again in more recent releases, we've found them introducing new guaranteed mechanics that aren't adequately pointed for or assessed in light of the combos they can be used in. Something like the Barak Zilfin WLV-in-a-bottle is a prime example of this syndrome. 

Edited by yukishiro1
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56 minutes ago, yukishiro1 said:

WLV

How exactly can a dwarf use a skaven made vortex in a bottle.

Why exactly isn’t it taking 10d6 mortal wounds on a  roll of 1.

it is a skaven endless spell were’s the risk!!!!!!!!!!

Edited by Skreech Verminking
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I played lots of 5th/6th edition fantasy and some 40k a long time ago and I am considering getting back into the hobby to play AoS. I have watched a lot of battle reports on Youtube and played some TTS games. My opinion is mostly a “What needs to change to get me seriously into the game”.

This double turn rule is nonsense needs to end. If it is so good then why aren’t 40k players wanting to add it to their games? If it was a good mechanic players would turn down the double turn 60-70% of the time. In high level games it seems players take it almost 100% of the time because the best armies are the ones that take advantage of a double turn.

In a game of Warhammer both players role huge amounts of dice. While it is variable in the short term, this will even out over the course of the game. The double turn puts so much value into a single dice roll it ruins all the other dice rolls. So many games are decided on turn dice rolls that are almost 50/50 decisions. So why bother wasting your time spending hundreds of dollars and hundreds of hours on an army when the result of the game is going to come down to a 50/50 decision at some point? You can just toss a coin at the start of the game and use that to determine the winner.

Obviously, all competitive games come down to crucial and tense dice roles at some point. Let’s imagine a situation where you need to make 1 wound on a character to almost certainly win the game. You have 10 attacks and 8 hit. Then you roll badly and get only 1 wound. The opposing player needs to make a 4+ save. Here we have just reduced the outcome of the game to a single 50/50 event but it feels completely appropriate, this situation arose organically during the game. The turn roles are guaranteed at the end of each round making them the important things and all the other events a sideshow that occurs as a consequence of the turn order. The double turn takes all the good tension out of the game and replaces it with something that results in one competitor being bored, one competitor getting an excessive advantage, and also it completely fails to create a believable abstraction of fantasy warfare.

If it has to stay because the designers are too belligerent or arrogant to accept that this ruins the game then the double turn should come with restrictions to movement, charging and casting. Also all points should be scored at end of a battle round so that the player that goes second has the advantage to take them.

I have no idea why tournament organizers don’t just abandon the double turn rule.

If in my limited understanding of the game I am missing something here I would be happy for anyone to correct me.

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A lot of it is historical happenstance. It worked better back before the best armies were ranged-focused, because the double turn is substantially less advantageous when it's two melee armies going at one another. 

If AOS had been this ranged-focused at release, I can almost guarantee you the double turn would have been removed in AOS 2.0, and nobody would be mourning it. But because it's lasted as long as it has, there's a fair number of people who have decided it is part of AOS "tradition" and therefore sacred. A lot of this is driven by nostalgia more than by current game experience: I know a fair number of people (though it's not a majority) who say they like the double turn rule and say it is good for the game, but not a single person who actually likes getting double-turned by a ranged-focused competitive army. I've never met somebody who loses a game because they got double-turned on T1 to T2 and is like "wow! that was great! The opponent removing 60% of my army before I got my second turn really is a good game experience!"

All that said, I would be extremely surprised if the double-turn makes it into AOS 3.0 in the same form it exists now. For pride's sake I wouldn't be surprised if they try to salvage it in theory, but I am nearly positive the actual mechanics are going to change substantially. Not even GW is clueless enough to think that how it actually works in practice right now is good for the game. and some of their recent fluff pieces on the website have even started tacitly admitting how much people dislike it (e.x. one recent article referred to it as "the dreaded double turn," not exactly the term you'd use for something you think is a good game mechanic). 

Edited by yukishiro1
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What I want from AoS 3 is more DESTRUCTION! New Factions, New Units, New Terrain, New Spells, more story importance, the works!

On more of a rules side of things I can't really say as I'm no expert, but I would like Anvil of Apotheosis to be maintained and expanded, maybe with some Warcry and Soulbound crossover.

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One thing I just thought of in another thread: consolidation. I don't really know why this is missing from AoS, and it leads to the really weird situation of being unable to take an objective off someone who was blocking you in the same turn that you clear them out in melee, as well as also making it almost impossible to trap units so they are unable to retreat. It would also significantly ratchet up the tactical considerations in choosing which units to activate when. 

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Units who are in combat who can shoot stuff should have to choose between shooting and striking in combat.  Units who shoot into combats....any misses should hit their own models on 1s.

And get rid of the thing where whoever went first on the previous turn wins priority roll ties.  

And a non-monster hero should be able to use a CP to make one charge roll for itself and single non-monster friendly unit within 6", so they can charge in together, as if the hero is actually LEADING somebody into battle.  So many hero CAs need to be in range and only take place in the combat phase.  

And where are the Ogor Endless Spells?!?!?

 

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Something interesting in the new DoK and Slaanesh battletomes: all new mortal wounds are linked to To Wound rolls and explosive attacks are related To Hit rolls.

What do you think? Are we looking at a new AoS3.0 mechanic? 

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On 2/10/2021 at 6:30 AM, yukishiro1 said:

All that said, I would be extremely surprised if the double-turn makes it into AOS 3.0 in the same form it exists now. For pride's sake I wouldn't be surprised if they try to salvage it in theory, but I am nearly positive the actual mechanics are going to change substantially. 

Unless we go with alternate activations of units, I can't see GW doing that much if I'm honest. A way to influence that initiative roll would be useful and would add more than luck to the double-turn, but even then I'm not hopeful. Afterall, the double-turn can win a game for lower tier armies... It can help the underdog as much as it can doom them.

Double-turn aside, I'd love there to be a solid  campaign mechanic for AoS 3.0 (match-play/competitive players should look away now 😁).  Afterall, everyone enjoys a good story to frame an epic battle on, don't they??

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It's absolutely wild to me how many people like the mechanic of "roll a single D6 to get an insane advantage of tempo in your game"

 

Aside from the teeth kicking that I receive when I lose the double turn I also just get so incredibly bored. It's like playing a multi-player game.

 

Before anyone says I'm not interacting with my opponents- we are very casual, narrative-minded players. I'm still here to move my little dollies, though!

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40 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Something interesting in the new DoK and Slaanesh battletomes: all new mortal wounds are linked to To Wound rolls and explosive attacks are related To Hit rolls.

What do you think? Are we looking at a new AoS3.0 mechanic? 

I am okay with less mortal wounds in the game, but I'll wait for proper reviews of the book to be released tomorrow.

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It would be just like GW to put in the ability to get MWs on a 5+ to hit, rerolling, at 30" range, with the option to ignore LOS...and then suddenly decide from the next book that MWs on 6s to hit were too powerful. 

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1 hour ago, Beliman said:

Something interesting in the new DoK and Slaanesh battletomes: all new mortal wounds are linked to To Wound rolls and explosive attacks are related To Hit rolls.

What do you think? Are we looking at a new AoS3.0 mechanic? 

If this is the way of the future, I can get behind it!

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