What would you like for AoS 3

[Kurrilino]

1 - Do not shoot into combat. Move before shooting -2 to hit

2 - Units in close combat can't shoot.

3 - Remove double turns. People can buy double turn with 200 points. Opponents can cancel it with an own purchased double turn. Risk is everywhere.

4 - Bring back artifacts for 50 points

5 - No one drop for battalions

6 - Bring back point costs for outfit and equipment for units but make it more usefull and thematic.  (Example Nurgle, they are rotten and surrounded by clouds of flies. The bonus should be -1 to hit, no running faster)

7 - Remove all the unnecessary General abilities in the General Handbook. Make it immune to fear and that's it. We have heroes for customized abilities

8 - Create options for every army to play more offense or defense oriented. 

9 -  Count wounds for object conquest, not model count

Edited February 2, 2021 by Kurrilino

[EMMachine]

13 minutes ago, Kurrilino said:

1 - Do not shoot into combat. Move before shooting -2 to hit

2 - Units in close combat can't shoot.

I have the feeling you could scrap the entire shooting phase with this combination. You will either hit on a 6 or can't shoot most of the time, so noone would play shooting units (basicly like in WHFB where shooting was nerfed to death with debuffs).

14 minutes ago, Kurrilino said:

3 - Remove double turns. People can buy double turn with 200 points. Opponents can cancel it with an own purchased double turn. Risk is everywhere.

You know that every round could be a double turn. If I start, you can have a doubleturn in turn 2, I can have one in Turn 3 you again in Turn 4 and I again in turn 5. So how should buying doubleturns even work?

[Enoby]

17 minutes ago, Kasper said:

It sounds like the game was lost regardless if a double turn happened or not, since you were able to run up and wipe half of his army with no damage in return.  But yeah, this sounds like a typical example of someone blaming the double turn, rather than looking at their lack of measurements of your threat range or using screens to prevent their good stuff being charged.  

Oh yeah, it was - but I guess that's kind of my point. I gave two examples of new players losing badly due to their skill level, but one of them enjoyed their loss much more than the other because they still got to play, whereas the other made a mistake and got wiped off the board. 

At the end of the day, losing isn't what matters - it's the quality of the loss. You have to admit a new played (who has 0 knowledge of how to plan for the double turn) is going to feel pretty bad when they put their army down, move it, and then have the opponent go twice and annihilate them. It's all well saying "yeah, you're just bad at this game and you lost because you placed your units poorly" but that isn't going to help them enjoy the game. 

[Popisdead]

On 1/31/2021 at 4:07 PM, Enoby said:

With a lot of speculation that AoS 3 is coming this year, and all AoS armies having a 'proper' battletome, I think it'd be interesting to discuss what we actually want to see from AoS 3. 

I think we are going to see 40k changes come to AoS.  Obviously smaller tables, battleshock if reworked could really help Horde armies (suddenly BoC becomes good akin to how Horde 40k Orks were top dog for 6 months).

What I don't want is the record and book keeping of 40k.  I have a hard time getting into it because it's SO much more complicated than the more clean ruleset of AoS.  I worry AoS will get too many layers put on top.  

Monsters getting better would be nice.  I think they need to rework warscrolls so getting damaged is slower.  The #1 comment about Durthu is "he's good until he takes wounds".  And 2 wounds does that.  Slow that down and make it a better scaling so a top dog is amazing but a mid level damaged monster is still an actual threat.  

Let's also keep in mind AoS is nearly 7? years old and has had a huge constant growth and improvement (given the ball they've dropped about nearly no support since last March).  

I would say,.. the thing I want to see most is more mid level.  I dont' want high ceilings and low floors I want more average so there aren't glaring issues (Sylvaneth, and BoC).  Those create issues for new players which ruins their game experience.  

[Kurrilino]

1 hour ago, EMMachine said:

 

You know that every round could be a double turn. If I start, you can have a doubleturn in turn 2, I can have one in Turn 3 you again in Turn 4 and I again in turn 5. So how should buying doubleturns even work?

Very easy, the assumption was that Doubleturn got removed. Players roll at the start of the match and then alternate.

Buying a doubleturn would interfere with that pattern.

[stratigo]

13 hours ago, EMMachine said:

In case of the double turn discussion. Does it really change anything if the rule is removed?

If the shooting unit has range 12" or less maybe yes, if it has more more likely no.

If the shooting unit has 16-18" range and you didn't fokus on cavalry (for example Fyreslayers) see what happend. He moves his unit to the 16" mark (if he has to move at all, for example because you started) and shoots at you. You move your 4-5" and try a 11" Charge most likely to fail, or run to get closer.

Guess what happens next. He moves back to be at 16" again shoots you a second time (and you are in the same situation as in the battleround before). Without the doubleturn your units will get shot 2-3 times before you even get into combat (and if he can't retriet further), he can still shoot, charge you and attack before you if you he doesn't have a better target (or charges you with another unit).

With the doubleturn (and you as the second player) you could move + run in the first round and than move and charge in the next turn so you maybe only get shot once before being in combat.

For such situations a minus 1 to hit (not the old fantasy rule where long range is the upper halve to maximal range but maybe 12"+ could help in such a situation.

WHFB made shooting very underwhelming because most the time you were basicly hitting on a 6+ or 7+ rarely on a 5+, but your units were as strong as the close combat once, because (they had the basic strength and could have shields as well), so they often were more expensive close combat units with the option to stand and shoot.

This sounds like someone who has played neither AoS or WHFB.

 

18 inches is guarenteed charge range for the majority of armies in AoS

 

Hitting on 5s was by far the most common hit roll for shooting in WHFB, and that would be because most armies were BS 3 

[stratigo]

3 hours ago, Ragest said:

Double turn works fine with melee, you can screen and you have alternating activations.

But what about magic and shooting? That’s the real problem to me, not double turn per se.

They don't work fine for melee either, a double turn allows you to pick and choose all the fights you want. If you are throwing units away in fights they can't win, then something has gone wrong for you. The game's not so dense that players can afford a more than a couple of very strong units, either through their own stat blocks or by buffing them to the moon. With a double you get to decide what to annihilate in combat two turns in a row without actually having to risk your hammer units, and it is extremely rare for your opponent to have enough tools left to respond.

[Siegfried VII]

13 hours ago, EMMachine said:

In case of the double turn discussion. Does it really change anything if the rule is removed?

If the shooting unit has range 12" or less maybe yes, if it has more more likely no.

If the shooting unit has 16-18" range and you didn't fokus on cavalry (for example Fyreslayers) see what happend. He moves his unit to the 16" mark (if he has to move at all, for example because you started) and shoots at you. You move your 4-5" and try a 11" Charge most likely to fail, or run to get closer.

Guess what happens next. He moves back to be at 16" again shoots you a second time (and you are in the same situation as in the battleround before). Without the doubleturn your units will get shot 2-3 times before you even get into combat (and if he can't retriet further), he can still shoot, charge you and attack before you if you he doesn't have a better target (or charges you with another unit).

With the doubleturn (and you as the second player) you could move + run in the first round and than move and charge in the next turn so you maybe only get shot once before being in combat.

This. I fully agree with you mate. Shooting armies will shoot twice almost all the time. The double turn actually gives close combat armies a chance to get up close faster and avoid being shot twice...

In my opinion if whoever ends deploying first just wins the tie and the first turn is decided on a dice roll it will make a huge difference because all the alpha strike/shoot offending armies will think twice on how they will deploy and will also help with scenarios where the first turn gives clear advantages to a player.

The game will be more strategic and interactive that way!

[EMMachine]

27 minutes ago, stratigo said:

This sounds like someone who has played neither AoS or WHFB.

 

18 inches is guarenteed charge range for the majority of armies in AoS

 

Hitting on 5s was by far the most common hit roll for shooting in WHFB, and that would be because most armies were BS 3 

I had played whfb since 7. Edition to somewhere after start 8. Edition + some years 9th Age and it was often a 6 with moving and still being in long range (or Darkaelfs with multiple shots, moving and long range.

And strange their is so much stuff with a move of 4-6". Rolling a 12 on charge is anything else than guarenteed. Not every army has a fokus on cavalry.

(In case of AoS, I had 5 games 2 of them solo, and all against Khorne).

[yukishiro1]

11 hours ago, Sleboda said:

Why can't you hide?

Because the LOS rules don't allow it. It's essentially impossible to hide in AOS the way it is actually played. The only time you can hide in AOS is maybe a single character behind a terrain piece, if you're lucky and line it up just right behind a pillar or something. Virtually none of the models themselves will ever block LOS for anything. And then even if you do manage to hide that single character behind a pillar just right...Lumineth will just shoot you anyway doing mortals on a 5+, because they don't even need LOS. 

Now in theory if everyone started using totally different terrain - big, long, tall walls with no gaps - you could hide (except from Lumineth and a few other units nobody takes). But that isn't how the game is played, and it isn't how the AOS terrain GW makes itself is built. 

[Sleboda]

2 hours ago, Popisdead said:

I think we are going to see 40k changes come to AoS.  Obviously smaller tables

That would be one of a handful of things that could get me to quit the game instantly. I still miss 4x8 tables. You know, tables that allowed you to play war games, not just skirmishes.

I accepted the move to 4x6, but smaller would just have me transition to Warcry as my standard fantasy gaming fun (that and Super Fantasy Brawl).

 

 

 

[Sleboda]

9 minutes ago, yukishiro1 said:

Now in theory if everyone started using totally different terrain - big, long, tall walls with no gaps - you could hide (except from Lumineth and a few other units nobody takes). But that isn't how the game is played

That's not the fault of the rules.

[Maddpainting]

1 hour ago, EMMachine said:

I had played whfb since 7. Edition to somewhere after start 8. Edition + some years 9th Age and it was often a 6 with moving and still being in long range (or Darkaelfs with multiple shots, moving and long range.

And strange their is so much stuff with a move of 4-6". Rolling a 12 on charge is anything else than guarenteed. Not every army has a fokus on cavalry.

(In case of AoS, I had 5 games 2 of them solo, and all against Khorne).

All melee focus armies has ways to boost their movements, double move, pre-game move, gain extra charges, deepstrike with bonuses to charges or re-rolls, run and charge, or all the above.  

Examples:
FeC: +4" move, +1" charge, and double move
IDK: 16" fly run and charge with re-rolls and +3" to charge
BoC: +3" move, +1" run, run and charge, also able to get +1" more to run and charge

There are many more, just a few examples.

[yukishiro1]

Yes, it is a fault of the rules. Saying "well if you use totally different terrain from the terrain GW clearly intends you to use based on what they sell for use with the game, you can hide" is not an argument that the rules are fine, it's an argument that you can get around the inadequacies of the rules by using a totally different kind of terrain. 

Incidentally, it's also an argument GW itself rejected in the way it changed terrain rules for 40k 9th edition - they explicitly announced they were changing the rules because they didn't work with the kind of terrain GW makes and wants the game to be played with. 

Edited February 2, 2021 by yukishiro1

[Televiper11]

5 hours ago, Ragest said:

Double turn works fine with melee, you can screen and you have alternating activations.

But what about magic and shooting? That’s the real problem to me, not double turn per se.

Magic can be scary but I also find that outside a few super-casters, magic only goes off about 50% of the time, and that’s before unbind. It’s also easy to keep squishy Heroes out of most spell ranges.

I screen for shooting with expendable chaff units whenever I can. Yeah, the new Lumineth rule is a bummer abs Soulscream Bridge is annoying but generally, I find you can weather a double turn of shooting if you’ve prepared yourself for it. If I don’t have a low drop army, I always set-up and prep to be double turned.

[yukishiro1]

Nobody's talking about getting double turned by that dude with a single weirdnob shaman. Kroak can hit anything anywhere on the board. Teclis can portal and then cast through it, on minimum 10s and on 12s if he really wants to, hitting potentially your entire army twice. KO will drop an uncounterable WLV on you and have it go off 3x before you can do anything about it if they get the double. A LoC's average casting roll is about a 9.5, or an 11.5 with the trait to reroll casting rolls. Shooting focused-armies all have either teleports that don't even require a casting roll (KO, Tzeentch, Seraphon) or 30" range and ability to ignore LOS (LRL). 

Not trying to be rude here at all, but it sounds like you don't play against the sort of competitive ranged lists people are discussing, because you absolutely cannot screen them out, and you absolutely cannot weather their firepower for two turns of their whole army going at you. These lists are all capable of destroying over 50% of the opponent's force over the double turn. 

Edited February 2, 2021 by yukishiro1

[Ragest]

23 minutes ago, yukishiro1 said:

Nobody's talking about getting double turned by that dude with a single weirdnob shaman. Kroak can hit anything anywhere on the board. Teclis can portal and then cast through it, on minimum 10s and on 12s if he really wants to, hitting potentially your entire army twice. KO will drop an uncounterable WLV on you and have it go off 3x before you can do anything about it if they get the double. A LoC's average casting roll is about a 9.5, or an 11.5 with the trait to reroll casting rolls. Shooting focused-armies all have either teleports that don't even require a casting roll (KO, Tzeentch, Seraphon) or 30" range and ability to ignore LOS (LRL). 

Not trying to be rude here at all, but it sounds like you don't play against the sort of competitive ranged lists people are discussing, because you absolutely cannot screen them out, and you absolutely cannot weather their firepower for two turns of their whole army going at you. These lists are all capable of destroying over 50% of the opponent's force over the double turn. 

And you can think "well, maybe they know that teleporting, shooting with MW and out of turn shooting/combat is turning too frustating for players" SO LETS MAKE A SNAKES TELEPORTING FOR FREE, SHOOTING 40+40 IN HERO AND SHOOTING PHASE WITH MORTALS YAAAAY

Edited February 2, 2021 by Ragest

[eciu]

15 minutes ago, Ragest said:

And you can think "well, maybe they know that teleporting, shooting with MW and out of turn shooting/combat is turning too frustating for players" SO LETS MAKE A SNAKES TELEPORTING FOR FREE, SHOOTING 40+40 IN HERO AND SHOOTING PHASE WITH MORTALS YAAAAY

Well that's the GW in nutshell. 

 

Fix a broken thing by introducing even more broken thing. 

 

[SeanMaguire1991]

34 minutes ago, eciu said:

Fix a broken thing by introducing even more broken thing. 

 

Wait I thought we were talking about Games Workshop not Privateer Press.

[Televiper11]

1 hour ago, yukishiro1 said:

Nobody's talking about getting double turned by that dude with a single weirdnob shaman. Kroak can hit anything anywhere on the board. Teclis can portal and then cast through it, on minimum 10s and on 12s if he really wants to, hitting potentially your entire army twice. KO will drop an uncounterable WLV on you and have it go off 3x before you can do anything about it if they get the double. A LoC's average casting roll is about a 9.5, or an 11.5 with the trait to reroll casting rolls. Shooting focused-armies all have either teleports that don't even require a casting roll (KO, Tzeentch, Seraphon) or 30" range and ability to ignore LOS (LRL). 

Not trying to be rude here at all, but it sounds like you don't play against the sort of competitive ranged lists people are discussing, because you absolutely cannot screen them out, and you absolutely cannot weather their firepower for two turns of their whole army going at you. These lists are all capable of destroying over 50% of the opponent's force over the double turn. 

You’re right, I don’t normally face net lists. Only a sliver of those who play Warhammer do. But I have faced many magic & shooting strong armies like Tzeentch, Skaven, & CoS.

Should those things be nerfed? Yes. Does it mean double turns are unviable as a mechanic? No.

Edited February 2, 2021 by Televiper11

[yukishiro1]

I think we mostly agree that the double turn is workable in theory, with the right sort of game design. The point is that it doesn't work with how the game has evolved. Yes, if you don't play competitively, you can obviously work around it. But competitive shooting lists break the double turn on a fundamental level, and it's not just one list so you could dismiss it as an outlier - all the competitive shooting lists break the double turn, and GW has kept releasing these books that allow for these lists over and over again for the past year and a bit, so they seem happy enough with the concept. 

Something needs to give here, because right now, the game just doesn't work when either player takes one of these lists. If they win the priority role at the start of T2, the game is just over, all that's left is rolling a bunch of dice and cleaning up. A game shouldn't work that way. If GW wants to dramatically tone down shooting and admit that pretty much all the tomes it has released over the last year were disasters, believe me, I wouldn't mind - but if they don't, they need to recognize the game they've actually created and remove the option for a double turn on the T1/T2 transition. 

[Televiper11]

On a snarky note, we know GW wants to speed the game up so maybe broken shooting is how they envision it 😉

[Popisdead]

3 hours ago, Sleboda said:

That would be one of a handful of things that could get me to quit the game instantly. I still miss 4x8 tables. You know, tables that allowed you to play war games, not just skirmishes.

I accepted the move to 4x6, but smaller would just have me transition to Warcry as my standard fantasy gaming fun (that and Super Fantasy Brawl).

Oof   I don't recall 4x8 (as a kid I think we played Rogue Trader on 4x8 but i didn't play 2nd or 3rd ed).  I am aware of the distinction of feeling even 2k is a skirmish level game.  

I  wonder if GW has a misconstrued intent.  "make games smaller, make armies smaller so people can get player faster" that turns into "have a giant collection to play cause we dropped the points on everything".  

[Doko]

8 hours ago, Kurrilino said:

Count wounds for object conquest, not model count

Yes i forgot this. The most needed changed together with the removal of double turn

[Kadeton]

To somewhat counter the shooting meta, I'd like to see something that had an effect on target priority without making shooting worthless. Something as simple as -1 to hit when targeting anything other than the closest enemy unit would still allow the shooting armies to make a tactical choice, but would allow their opponents to "screen" at least somewhat, much like it's possible to screen against melee.

Deepkin can still keep their superior version of this to totally dictate targeting (though they should lose their 2+ rerollable saves, let's not have any 2+ in the game please) but it would give everyone else a bit of a leg up.