AaronWilson Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 I would love to a bit of a leveller for all the armies in AoS 3. Seraphon, LRL, Tzeentch have all pushed towards a shooting meta with magic dominance, those two things feel very oppressive to play against. I think a move away from shooting would be healthy but they aren't simply going to reprint every shooting warscroll. I think the best we can hope for is some new good scenarios & better terrain rules. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vasshpit Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 Been a min on this one but this just came to mind while thinking about the new Gravelords. I'd like spirit hosts to become universal battleline choice across all death armies. Maybe even with a rule of "only one unit" counts towards that. Thematically this would be awesome! They're already sprinkled across other factions model ranges as well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neverchosen Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 2 hours ago, Vasshpit said: Been a min on this one but this just came to mind while thinking about the new Gravelords. I'd like spirit hosts to become universal battleline choice across all death armies. Maybe even with a rule of "only one unit" counts towards that. Thematically this would be awesome! They're already sprinkled across other factions model ranges as well. Death more than any other Grand Alliance's factions feel rather arbitrary. Thematically and aesthetically the armies make perfect sense but in terms of Vampiric lords, ghostly mages and bone constructs I do not see any of them really turning down a horde of zombies, ghosts or skeletons in their battles. But I am with you on spirit hosts in particular they are such a classic unit for Vampire Counts and would feel sorely missed from the faction. Also their models fit well with Nighthaunt but also have a unique feel to them that seems appropriate for mixing and matching. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleboda Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 (edited) On 3/16/2021 at 3:01 AM, AaronWilson said: I think the best we can hope for is some new good scenarios & better terrain rules. Not picking on you, Aaron, but this is as good a quote as any to use for my question. I'd love to know what people think needs to be changed in the terrain rules that would not be solved by people just using better actual terrain. From my games, it's my view that the rules are fine - but we play with stuff of a good size, appropriate for these heroically scaled models. Even the original 4-pager had sufficient rules* to cover things if you just used nice terrain and applied all the rules. *I'm aware they didn't really call out the rules as a guide for terrain, but what you needed was there. Edited March 27, 2021 by Sleboda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutton Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 In light (haha) of the new Lumineth, I want to reiterate my desire for a cap on -1 hit/wound debuffs in the game. Debuff stacking is huge NPE. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanMaguire1991 Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 On 3/16/2021 at 8:01 AM, AaronWilson said: I would love to a bit of a leveller for all the armies in AoS 3. Seraphon, LRL, Tzeentch have all pushed towards a shooting meta with magic dominance, those two things feel very oppressive to play against. I think a move away from shooting would be healthy but they aren't simply going to reprint every shooting warscroll. I think the best we can hope for is some new good scenarios & better terrain rules. I still believe shooting in general is gonna be hit with a serious nerf hammer 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warhammernerd Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 (edited) Characters can join units, as per old fantasy. Shooting cannot be done into combat. Shooting through your own units, even if you can 'see' the target is a flat -1. Single heroes cannot be targeted by shooting unless they are the closest target. Teleporting units cannot shoot or charge following a teleport, the same rule shouldn't apply to summoned or ambushing units. Bring back % restrictions. Armies should IMHO look like armies, Nagash or Archaon shouldn't wandering around with 20 dudes. Not sure how this can be fixed, cos the cat is out the bag now, but it's ****** and makes the game look and feel lame. Fix prayers, they are OP, too reliable and cant be unbound. Fix overly complex warscrolls for specific terrain pieces, which almost no one uses and make decent universal terrain rules. Fix rules for moving over terrain, steam tanks shouldnt be able to climb trees. Obvs. Go back to 6 simple, dynamic and actually effective mystical terrain rules. Edited March 27, 2021 by warhammernerd 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanMaguire1991 Posted March 28, 2021 Share Posted March 28, 2021 I just had a crazy idea. What if the Shooting phase came after the Fight phase, how different would the game be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nos Posted March 28, 2021 Share Posted March 28, 2021 (edited) I would like to see the Mechanics of the Game itself dictate how it plays rather than them be twisted into weird shapes by Army Book formulae etc but it won't happen. By which I mean fir example Dudes who are 8 feet tall and clad in plate mail should be more durable than naked fanatics. *Everyone* now basically gets a deathless minions roll for the most flimsy definition of faith or zeal or whatever,its absurd. It feels like GW's capacity to use the rules they have themselves created to communicate the themes of an army is just totally lacking unless they can effectivley ignore them. AOS basically boils down to a few key concepts Heroes, Magic, Summmoning, Movement, Shooting, Combat. If they focussed on ensuring each army was a specialist in one or two of those criteria , average at a few others and actively compromised on the rest it would be a vastly more balanced and engaging game. I think it's really interesting that in spite of their astonishing sucsess as a minis company *no other wargames system* has the approach GW do with 40k and Fantasy with Army Books and Faction terrain. That's partly because they dont have the resources to commit to that approach of course, but I think its mainly because from a perspective of designing a game it is utterly counter intuitive to spread the rules for it across like 12 books. But of course GW are hawking a license and selling a universe, so it's not really about developing a game in that sense. But the game mechanics being a secondary focus over "theme" is in reality what leads to Stormcast having to act as a Sniper Corps to stay competitive, an army of Giants being less destructive than an army of goblins, a Treelord being easier for a regiment of ten people to kill than ten people with no clothes on etc on account of all the weird buffs in place. If you're looking to play the best form of your faction on the table, then thematically it's likely to be utterly non representative of them in the fiction, or, as with LRL and say FEC so accurate that the rules barely tether them to the game anymore. But as I say, selling armies is the goal, not making a good game, so it's not going to happen. Which is totally fine of course. Their prerogative is to make and sell the best model soldiers and AOS as a vehicle for that is remarkable. Pound for pound in terms of ratio of money spent to the value of your figures within game rules across the system and to you and your opponent's experience within matched play, it's among the worst wargames system there is Edited March 28, 2021 by Nos 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skreech Verminking Posted March 28, 2021 Share Posted March 28, 2021 12 hours ago, SeanMaguire1991 said: I just had a crazy idea. What if the Shooting phase came after the Fight phase, how different would the game be? Or what would happen if we exchange its place with the movement phase😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanMaguire1991 Posted March 28, 2021 Share Posted March 28, 2021 4 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said: Or what would happen if we exchange its place with the movement phase😂 Well if it went Hero, Move, Charge, Fight, Shoot, Morale Missile units that don't retreat get their faces kicked in like they should Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayul Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 More pirates. Dead or fat, I don't care. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mcthew Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 (edited) I've chimed in with a few things I want for AoS 3.0, but now for what I don't want, because we know GW does read this forum. I reckon some of you out there have heard about what happened with the recent Kill Team release (re boxed old kit, with reduced contents but prices whacked up by 20% to name just one thing). Since the new 40k edition there appears to be a steep price rise = less content that might make any AoS 3.0 release a costly affair. I would love there to be an AoS 3.0 Soulwars box*, but I wouldn't be prepared to pay £120 for it, particularly if it had less models than Soulwars. At the moment GW pricing is all over the place so I look at AoS 3.0 with measure of scepticism. This isn't a post to set hares running, but I'm gonna be pretty cautious about any AoS 3.0 release, and the new Cursed City release will be a bench mark (52 minis and lots of other goodness, but leaked prices show a massive jump). *Although pretty stoked to see what the Ruination chamber is gonna look like. Grim-darker stormcast anyone? Edited March 31, 2021 by Mcthew 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 (edited) I agree with most of the stuff already mentioned (ditch double turns, tone down shooting, tone down damage overall, revised terrain rules, etc etc), but the biggest and least likely thing I'd like to see is ditching discrete player turns altogether and instead going with alternating activations in every phase the way the combat phase currently works. At the moment long player turns can leave the other player with relatively little engagement for long chunks of time. Obviously the double turn makes this dramatically worse and ditching it would be an improvement, but ditching separate player turns altogether would be a much bigger fix, imo. As for toning down shooting, maybe this was suggested already, I admit I haven't read through the entire thread, but in addition to no shooting into combat and bigger penalties for targeting heroes near units, one thing to consider could be moving the shooting phase to before movement instead of after. This would effectively cut down the range of missile weapons across the board and make it a lot easier to use terrain to block line of sight to characters and smaller units. Edited April 1, 2021 by Sception 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warhammernerd Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 Double turn mechanic is a keeper, one of the best parts of the game. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitsumy Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 (edited) Not agree, double turn must leave, cant have a balanced tactical game when 1 only dice has so much power. Sure you can play around it and minimize the lossed a bit, but still 1 only dice shouldnt be so important. So for me is: -bye bye double turn - magic after move - foot heros cant be shot unless they be closest to firing unit. - standar melee ranges not based on bases, since rigth now every small base figth like a spear despite having a litle knife, and some huge 2 hand units in 32 bases only fight in 1 row, is stupid. Something like 40k where 2 rows can fight despite base size, make spears figth with 3 or 4 rows per example. -monster wound increase , a 350p beast cant have 12-14wounds, is nuts. They should have 20-30w etc Sure it would need rebalance of armyes, but it would be a more tactical game and less skirmish game Edited April 1, 2021 by Kitsumy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 (edited) Also can't have a fun game when one player stands around doing very little for half an hour because it's the other player's turn... then loses a priority roll and has to stand around doing very little for ~another~ half an hour because it's the other player's turn again. You can argue tactics and strategy and whatnot all you want, but waiting around that long potentially doing nothing more than rolling saves and putting dead guys away just isn't fun. I prefer magic before move, though. In fact, as already mentioned, I'd put shooting before move as well. Edited April 1, 2021 by Sception 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vasshpit Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 I have minimal experience with other miniature tabletop games. Are most you go, I go rules without a potential double turn mechanic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
novakai Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 i mean if they make the game board smaller like they did in 40K (which everyone seem certain that it will happen) they may have to do something with the priority turn mechanic since smaller board would just make getting double turn much more worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 Lately alternating activations, sort of the way the combat phase works, are more common ime. And that's certainly the direction I'd like GW to take, though I don't at all expect it. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beliman Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, Kitsumy said: - magic after move - foot heros cant be shot unless they be closest to firing unit. Umm, maybe I misunderstood what you are saying, but killing heroes with magic instead of ranged weapons... I'm not sure about that. Edited April 1, 2021 by Beliman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanMaguire1991 Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 1 hour ago, Sception said: Lately alternating activations, sort of the way the combat phase works, are more common ime. And that's certainly the direction I'd like GW to take, though I don't at all expect it. Alternating activations is good IF you do everything during your units activation e.g. Move, Shoot, Fight like in Warmahordes. I think AoS would benefit from a system like LotR SBG, where there is priority rolls but no double turns as such. Its one player does all their movement then the opponent does theirs and continues as such for the rest of the phases. Also you can interrupt this with heroic actions. Now that I type this I can see some real appeal to this system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanMaguire1991 Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 2 hours ago, Vasshpit said: I have minimal experience with other miniature tabletop games. Are most you go, I go rules without a potential double turn mechanic? As far as I know there are no other Wargames with a double turn mechanic. I see people here bleet endlessly about how it makes the game unique. In my opinion as the rule currently is, its an anchor around the games neck thats holding it back from its true potential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vasshpit Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 @SeanMaguire1991 Ive heard many times that LotR has a pretty phenomenal rule set. Has anyone ever tried to apply it to AoS as an experiment? I'd be very interested to hear how it worked out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mcthew Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 3 hours ago, Sception said: Lately alternating activations, sort of the way the combat phase works, are more common ime. And that's certainly the direction I'd like GW to take, though I don't at all expect it. Alternate activations would also make army building more interesting. Where one player might limit drops to get the initiative for that first unit move, another might go for more units to give them more options vs their opponent (and less counter moves). However as units get wiped off the table it does mean that subsequent turns could get very boring for the player left with one unit of battleline and a single hero. Swings and roundabouts, really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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