What would you like for AoS 3

[Slayerofmen]

7 hours ago, Landohammer said:

So basically like Sisters of the Watch? 

We are approaching a point of imbalance in the game where the community needs to get involved. Kroak, Sentinels, Hearthguard, Fly High, Flamers, Snake Ladies and Eels need immediate action. 

20% temporary point hike on the named units until a FAQ hits. We did it before with Swedish comp and we can do it again if necessary. 

 

The game needs a Swedish comp like old times, you want to take broken BS you can but there is a penalty 

[yukishiro1]

But now you're contradicting yourself. If you already plan out what you're going to shoot at before you choose any targets, it wouldn't add any time to have to declare ahead of time (in fact, it would probably save time because there's no option to then dilly-dally halfway through the phase deciding how to allocate future shots based on past results). 

The main downside I see is that it requires some book-keeping to keep track of what is declared as shooting at what. Which is presumably why it's not already a rule. 

Edited March 5, 2021 by yukishiro1

[Beliman]

After looking at 40k, I would like to see some "alternative" warscrolls for miniatures that we already have. I don't know how it could work, but it would add a lot of flavour to armies and even lists.

Maybe some "veteran" options or even new warscrolls for subfaccions. Veteran Vanguard Hunters for  Astral Templars, Cursed Spite Revenants for Dreadwood or Conquerors Blood Reavers for Goretide.

Nothing big: some stats change, maybe a new ability or a modified one.

[chosen_of_khaine]

18 hours ago, Landohammer said:

So basically like Sisters of the Watch? 

We are approaching a point of imbalance in the game where the community needs to get involved. Kroak, Sentinels, Hearthguard, Fly High, Flamers, Snake Ladies and Eels need immediate action. 

20% temporary point hike on the named units until a FAQ hits. We did it before with Swedish comp and we can do it again if necessary. 

 

No, because Sisters can put out double the shots and can shoot when charged. It's almost as if they *aren't* the same unit. 

Go for it, I agree they should go up in points, but changing the warscroll AND the points would be too much, as I said.

[Boar]

10 hours ago, yukishiro1 said:

But now you're contradicting yourself. If you already plan out what you're going to shoot at before you choose any targets, it wouldn't add any time to have to declare ahead of time

There is difference betweeen rough outline while you move, and declaring it in shooting. Second, now since I wait for results I don't have to worry about over/underkill which is additional factor.

 

10 hours ago, yukishiro1 said:

in fact, it would probably save time because there's no option to then dilly-dally halfway through the phase deciding how to allocate future shots based on past results

Interesting point here.

[Landohammer]

Fair. But i'm not sure a point hike is enough for Sentinels.

I played a tournament practice game vs lumineth recently were 30 sentinels wiped a unit of 6 Kurnoth Hunters in a single shooting phase.  The reliability and range of their output is absolute insanity. And when you put it in the context of an army that can debuff bravery and 2x CP cost, it just exacerbates their impact. 

[Neverchosen]

I posted this thought in the 3.0 Model wish list thread but I have been musing over the related rules between alliance armies that I think GW should explore further:

I think that there are some interesting common traits within the Alliances that I hope get explored. Particularly I think that Chaos has a focus on acquiring points and I feel Slaves to Darkness and Skaven need to get similar rules. I feel Slaves to Darkness could get favour points and spend them on the Eye of the Gods chart rather than leave it up to Random chance. Skaven could steal for their points and spend them on warpstone and command points? Order armies have begun to introduce currency systems with aether gold and aether quartz. I think that having the order armies tied to systems of in game capital is an interesting idea that could be explored further and even allow for interesting lore possibilities as the order armies begin to compete for resources.  Death has some similar rules for summoning/healing and for save after the save but I think that they can tie a lot of these rules to their generals/heroes being even more central to their armies than in other factions... maybe revisiting the idea of relentless discipline points for the alliance. Destruction seems to be more loosely associated and as such I could see the emphasis being on states of mind like Orruk Warclans movement after being injured or Ogors Hunger/Eating cycle. Either way I feel like GW has done a great job of having common themes within the grand alliances but I think they could take that a step further. 
 

[yukishiro1]

Sentinels can't really be fixed with points, the mechanics are fundamentally abusive - they just ignore all the fundamental rules of the game. To hit doesn't matter. To wound doesn't matter. Saves don't matter. LOS doesn't matter. It's a literal joke of a unit, like what someone would come up with when intoxicated. 

 Ranged MWs on a to hit roll that ignore LOS should simply not be in the game, and they certainly shouldn't be in the game when you can trigger them on a 5+ rerolling. 

You could point them so high they weren't worth taking, but they'd still be abusive - just underpowered and abusive, instead of overpowered and abusive. It wouldn't really fix the issue.

It still boggles my mind that Sentinels made it through the design phase, much less "playtesting" (quotation marks required given what happened). It's a big indictment that nobody was brave enough to stand up and say "no, you can't do this, it's just terrible design. Go back to the drawing board and come up with something else, this isn't a winner." 

[Vasshpit]

3 minutes ago, yukishiro1 said:

this isn't a winner." 

It's a winner for GW profits. 😉 Then just tweak em later on...

 

Tin foil hat off...

[Feii]

more predictable double turns or a game mod/submod withotu them. (official) 

[Doko]

Yes so i said the easiest change is move the mortals to wound,so they have less mortals and now the look out sir work.

I agree with you that is imposible how a unit with 36" los,being a mage that many people forget this,doing mortals on 5 and a cost of 120 is a joke how have gone beyong first alpha testing.

If they dont change anithing they gonna be broken even at 200 points.

But they just buff almost at the same level to the snakes archers so i have 0 hope that gw gonna do something.

I guess a nerf to 130 so the people see they have been nerfed and they gonna call the day

[Beliman]

17 hours ago, Landohammer said:

I played a tournament practice game vs lumineth recently were 30 sentinels wiped a unit of 6 Kurnoth Hunters in a single shooting phase.

Is that possible? 6 Kurnoth hunters have 30 wounds with 3+ (using cover).

30 sentinels shoot 28 arrows and you need 2 cast rolls to succeed, rerolls, and still, they are doing 13 average dmg and they cost 420 p vs 380p. 

 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Beliman

[Enoby]

2 hours ago, Beliman said:

Is that possible? 6 Kurnoth hunters have 30 wounds with 3+ (using cover).

30 sentinels shoot 28 arrows and you need 2 cast rolls to succeed, rerolls, and still, they are doing 13 average dmg and they cost 420 p vs 380p. 

 

Is it possible that 3 or 4 died, and the others ran to battleshock? I don't know how Sylvaneth are at preventing that

[Beliman]

On 3/6/2021 at 11:20 AM, Enoby said:

Is it possible that 3 or 4 died, and the others ran to battleshock? I don't know how Sylvaneth are at preventing that

It's possible but really edgy.

You need to kill at least 4 (20 wounds at least) to remove the remaining 2 Kurnoth, and the enemy must roll a 5+ for the battleshock. But remember that Kurnoth Hunters are always in range of any Command Ability, so with 1 CP (or 2 with Total Eclipse, cast 8 ), they ignore the battleshock phase. 

If that's the case, I would advise for the Lumineth player to make a trip to Las Vegas.

Edited March 7, 2021 by Beliman

[MitGas]

23 hours ago, Doko said:

Yes so i said the easiest change is move the mortals to wound,so they have less mortals and now the look out sir work.

I agree with you that is imposible how a unit with 36" los,being a mage that many people forget this,doing mortals on 5 and a cost of 120 is a joke how have gone beyong first alpha testing.

If they dont change anithing they gonna be broken even at 200 points.

But they just buff almost at the same level to the snakes archers so i have 0 hope that gw gonna do something.

I guess a nerf to 130 so the people see they have been nerfed and they gonna call the day

I find it really bad tbh that GW seldom changes the actual warscrolls bur rather the point costs... haven't played against LRL yet but that unit sounds rather scary... would a -1 to hit mess up their MW output? 

[Enoby]

9 minutes ago, MitGas said:

I find it really bad tbh that GW seldom changes the actual warscrolls bur rather the point costs... haven't played against LRL yet but that unit sounds rather scary... would a -1 to hit mess up their MW output? 

I believe it's unmodified hits of 5 or 6, so a -1 does little to help. I agree that I'd like to see more warscroll changes compared to just points; points are good, but sometimes a warscroll is too good or too bad to correctly balance with points. 

[yukishiro1]

23 hours ago, MitGas said:

I find it really bad tbh that GW seldom changes the actual warscrolls bur rather the point costs... haven't played against LRL yet but that unit sounds rather scary... would a -1 to hit mess up their MW output? 

No, that's one of the (many) massive problems with the unit: since the vast majority of the damage output comes from MWs that activate on unmodified dice rolls, Look out Sir does absolutely nothing, nor do any other hit, wound, or save modifiers. They just ignore every basic rule of the game: no line of sight needed, don't need to hit, don't need to wound, go right through armor. After-save is the only rule they have to pay attention to, otherwise it's just an exercise is how many of a potentially rerollable bucket of dice you can get to 5s and 6s. 

It's just terrible, terrible game design. 

[MitGas]

26 minutes ago, yukishiro1 said:

No, that's one of the (many) massive problems with the unit: since the vast majority of the damage output comes from MWs that activate on unmodified dice rolls, Look out Sir does absolutely nothing, nor do any other hit, wound, or save modifiers. They just ignore every basic rule of the game: no line of sight needed, don't need to hit, don't need to wound, go right through armor. After-save is the only rule they have to pay attention to, otherwise it's just an exercise is how many of a potentially rerollable bucket of dice you can get to 5s and 6s. 

It's just terrible, terrible game design. 

Okay, I now hate Lameineth even more!  That said, it's nice if people don't complain about Flamers as much anymore... (they are great against low save models tho....)

[Wraith]

4 hours ago, MitGas said:

Okay, I now hate Lameineth even more!  That said, it's nice if people don't complain about Flamers as much anymore... (they are great against low save models tho....)

Seraphon players must love Lumineth. The later is so flamboyant (snorting a line of Aetherquartz and then walking down the street wearing a flower pot for a hat, now that’s flamboyant) that they draw all the criticism and animosity and then everyone forgets how broken Seraphon are.

[whispersofblood]

13 hours ago, MitGas said:

Okay, I now hate Lameineth even more!  That said, it's nice if people don't complain about Flamers as much anymore... (they are great against low save models tho....)

Imagine thinking flamers aren't one of most offensive shooting units in the game...

[MitGas]

1 hour ago, whispersofblood said:

Imagine thinking flamers aren't one of most offensive shooting units in the game...

Depending on the enemy, they aren't all that hot. They're just too good vs. some enemies/armies. So if they cost more points, they'll soon start to see less play in general and will stay against armies weak to them. It's difficult to balance them right.

[JonnyTheKing]

On 3/5/2021 at 7:05 PM, yukishiro1 said:

Sentinels can't really be fixed with points, the mechanics are fundamentally abusive - they just ignore all the fundamental rules of the game. To hit doesn't matter. To wound doesn't matter. Saves don't matter. LOS doesn't matter. It's a literal joke of a unit, like what someone would come up with when intoxicated. 

 Ranged MWs on a to hit roll that ignore LOS should simply not be in the game, and they certainly shouldn't be in the game when you can trigger them on a 5+ rerolling. 

You could point them so high they weren't worth taking, but they'd still be abusive - just underpowered and abusive, instead of overpowered and abusive. It wouldn't really fix the issue.

It still boggles my mind that Sentinels made it through the design phase, much less "playtesting" (quotation marks required given what happened). It's a big indictment that nobody was brave enough to stand up and say "no, you can't do this, it's just terrible design. Go back to the drawing board and come up with something else, this isn't a winner." 

Honestly the AOS team’s rules writers are super hit or miss, they release cool stuff but then they release awful boring warscrolls or terribly overpowered warscrolls 

[Enoby]

2 minutes ago, JonnyTheKing said:

Honestly the AOS team’s rules writers are super hit or miss, they release cool stuff but then they release awful boring warscrolls or terribly overpowered warscrolls 

I think there aren't many (maybe only two?) teams or people who write the warscrolls and battletomes, which ends up with a wide range of power variation. I understand why one person couldn't write all of them, but it does leave some very questionable warscrolls and battletomes. 

 

[whispersofblood]

25 minutes ago, MitGas said:

Depending on the enemy, they aren't all that hot. They're just too good vs. some enemies/armies. So if they cost more points, they'll soon start to see less play in general and will stay against armies weak to them. It's difficult to balance them right.

What do you think flamers are not good against? Because they seem pretty universally good due to bonuses to hit min squads, -1 rend and d3 dmg.

[JonnyTheKing]

For AOS 3 honestly just a bit of a pull back on the power creep, it’s becoming a serious issue right now with the games enjoyment sadly. We have seen just how abusive shooting is right now, at least a tidy up to the shooting phase would be nice (More disadvantages for shooting units, for example a unit CANNOT shoot if they are in engagement range in combat) even then some of the warscrolls the way they are is still going to be an issue but that is the big one for me really 

battleshock is also a phase I’d like to be tweaked right now, the way 40K handles battleshock right now is pretty solid so I’d be totally fine if they just implemented that way of doing it into Age of Sigmar