What would you like for AoS 3

[Lich King]

You know , reading all of this - does anyone else miss Declarations? Declare Charges, Shooting etc... Those were my favorite mechanics along with no Pre-Measuring (something 8th Ed Fantasy killed). Am I alone in this ? The hype of properly assessing or guesstimating distance being rewarded/punished.... Anyone? ...

[Skreech Verminking]

1 hour ago, Lich King said:

You know , reading all of this - does anyone else miss Declarations? Declare Charges, Shooting etc... Those were my favorite mechanics along with no Pre-Measuring (something 8th Ed Fantasy killed). Am I alone in this ? The hype of properly assessing or guesstimating distance being rewarded/punished.... Anyone? ...

You don’t declare shooting?

I actually didn’t know that.

so you basically role  to see how much damage you do and then decide on which unit that goes to?

how would that work with the current look out sir rule

Edited February 27, 2021 by Skreech Verminking

[Lich King]

19 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

You don’t declare shooting?

I actually didn’t know that.

so you basically role  to see how much damage you do and then decide on which unit that goes to?

how would that work with the current look out sir rule

With Pre-Measuring done away with since 8th Fantasy, Declares are not in the game.  Meaning you say that X unit is gonna charge or X unit is going to shoot- and you can pre measure beforehand what you will need to charge , or what is In range to shoot ( for free). In the past you had to Declare before anything what is going into what. You could not pre measure. If you declared something was going to charge into something , and then after measuring you see it’s not In range, you fail the charge. You can’t decide to not charge or go to a different unit - hence you are punished for the tactical choice/ risk you are taking.

  Similar with shooting if I remember correctly - you declare which unit to shoot and then measure. If it is out of range - you lose your shots. I found that whole system incredibly exhilarating and very rewarding. This is far better and more “grown up” than just pre measuring everything and just forming your guys into doing hyper - combos and rolling tons of dice.  But hey - that’s just me.

[Saxon]

17 hours ago, Lich King said:

You know , reading all of this - does anyone else miss Declarations? Declare Charges, Shooting etc... Those were my favorite mechanics along with no Pre-Measuring (something 8th Ed Fantasy killed). Am I alone in this ? The hype of properly assessing or guesstimating distance being rewarded/punished.... Anyone? ...

I never knew the pre-measuring rules in GW games. Its a rule in bolt action which i have started playing and I like it. I feel it really makes you work hard on tactics rather than just running across the board.

[Aelfric]

I've been wondering whether changing the order of phases might help to mitigate the effect of shooting whilst still allowing it a worthwhile place within the game.   Basically have the shooting phase before the movement phase, so;

Hero phase

Shooting phase

Movement phase

Charge phase

Combat phase

Battleshock phase

I feel like this should make 1st turn alpha shooting less likely and help to reduce the impact of shooting in the double turn.  It should also make teleporting then shooting less probable, since most teleporting is done in the movement phase.  

I am aware, though, that there may be unintended consequences that I haven't considered and which would make this adjustment unsuitable, so was wondering what others think of this idea.

Apologies if this has already been discussed and discarded as a workable solution.

 

 

[Clan's Cynic]

3 hours ago, Saxon said:

I never knew the pre-measuring rules in GW games. Its a rule in bolt action which i have started playing and I like it. I feel it really makes you work hard on tactics rather than just running across the board.

I think restricted/no pre-measuring in Bolt Action works pretty well because of it's focus on ranged weaponry (unless you're playing Japan anyway), so it 'feels' right to take a guess at how far out your squad is and have them loose ineffective (out of range) shots that do nothing.

In AoS however, the turn one alpha strikes aren't altogether that rare and I feel like it would risk creating a situation that is extremely frustrating for some armies and not for others (notably Ironjawz and Slaanesh).

The impact is also lessened in Bolt Action - if you're out of range of shooting an enemy, odds are the enemy would have to Advance (Move, then fire with -1 to the roll for those who've not played it) to close that distance anyway, whereas in a melee-focused game like AoS that mistake of being an inch or two out probably just opened up that unit to being doggy piled by half a dozen enemy units. 

That said, I don't think restricted pre-measuring will ever come to AoS, it feels like one of those potentially frustrating features that most games moved away from for that reason -  even Warmahordes of all things.

I wouldn't mind if the Ranging In mechanic was implemented for artillery in some form though.

Edited February 28, 2021 by Clan's Cynic

[Doko]

I really think people are overacting with shooting.

Only we need some fix:

-lumineths changed from mortals on hit to wound

-kharadron a rework or big nerf to the fly high(his shooting isnt the problem)

-tzenth nerfs in points to horrors and flamers

-daugther of khaine again the same than lumineths,changed the mortal wound of snakes in hit to wound.

 

The shooting is fine,the problem are these overpowers units.

 

 

[Saxon]

9 hours ago, Clan's Cynic said:

I think restricted/no pre-measuring in Bolt Action works pretty well because of it's focus on ranged weaponry (unless you're playing Japan anyway), so it 'feels' right to take a guess at how far out your squad is and have them loose ineffective (out of range) shots that do nothing.

In AoS however, the turn one alpha strikes aren't altogether that rare and I feel like it would risk creating a situation that is extremely frustrating for some armies and not for others (notably Ironjawz and Slaanesh).

The impact is also lessened in Bolt Action - if you're out of range of shooting an enemy, odds are the enemy would have to Advance (Move, then fire with -1 to the roll for those who've not played it) to close that distance anyway, whereas in a melee-focused game like AoS that mistake of being an inch or two out probably just opened up that unit to being doggy piled by half a dozen enemy units. 

That said, I don't think restricted pre-measuring will ever come to AoS, it feels like one of those potentially frustrating features that most games moved away from for that reason -  even Warmahordes of all things.

I wouldn't mind if the Ranging In mechanic was implemented for artillery in some form though.

Well said however i think it would be helpful for the shooting mechanics of the game which have been very much in focus since Khadron Overlords became good. You are right though that it could be a frustrating mechanic. 

My concern with all of this is how 1 army book can make shooting mechanics a problem for an entire game. AOS has a major problem with armies going from good to garbage to good far too quickly. 

[Clan's Cynic]

20 minutes ago, Saxon said:

AOS has a major problem with armies going from good to garbage to good far too quickly. 

I'd say that's a GW issue rather than one specific to AoS. It's not much better on the 40k front, if not even worse for it. 

[Saxon]

Just now, Clan's Cynic said:

I'd say that's a GW issue rather than one specific to AoS. It's not much better on the 40k front, if not even worse for it. 

I didn't want to assume with 40k, i haven't played the game in 15 years. They too had shooting issues with the Tau for a while and now they've over-corrected and Tau are garbage. I'm surprised more people don't get more upset about these instances where armies become basically irrelevant overnight given the massive investment in time and money required to create a playable army. 

[Beliman]

7 hours ago, Saxon said:

Well said however i think it would be helpful for the shooting mechanics of the game which have been very much in focus since Khadron Overlords became good. You are right though that it could be a frustrating mechanic. 

My concern with all of this is how 1 army book can make shooting mechanics a problem for an entire game. AOS has a major problem with armies going from good to garbage to good far too quickly. 

I want to add that ranged specialist units allways had a big impact in the whole game. Kurnoth Hunters with bows, Skyfarers, Kunnin'Ruk, Thundertusks Ice breath, Tzeentch flamers,  Anvils, Tempest's Eye Irondrakes (with bridge), Blood stalkers double-tap, etc...

And let's be honest, if we only count dmg output from ranged units, Kharadrons Overlords are at the middle table. We are good because we have Fly High, we can attack with our 2000 points using just an small area on the table (Skyvessels) and we have awesome one-use artefacts (bomblets+spell in the bottle). 

[stratigo]

On 2/26/2021 at 7:23 PM, Doko said:

City of sigmar general have this same rule or almost the same and is 100% useless vs kroak and lumineths.

Look out sir must be a rule that makes imposible to target the hero with shooting and magic

Or, and hear me out because this might be crazy, you nerf Kroak and sentinels 

[zilberfrid]

2 hours ago, stratigo said:

Or, and hear me out because this might be crazy, you nerf Kroak and sentinels 

As wel as limiting spell in a bottle to non-faction.

[Doko]

3 hours ago, stratigo said:

Or, and hear me out because this might be crazy, you nerf Kroak and sentinels 

Yes i have said it manh times.

Sentinels do mortal wound on wound rolls and cost 160 

Kroak cant extend the range of his broken spell by no means and cost 400

[yukishiro1]

4 hours ago, stratigo said:

Or, and hear me out because this might be crazy, you nerf Kroak and sentinels 

Porque no los dos?

By all means, nerf the most overpowered junk in the current system. But the game would really be better off if they reworked shooting for AOS 3.0 to be less something that just happens to you and more something you feel you have some control over, which I am convinced is where the NPE feeling comes from, more even than just from overpowered shooting units. 

[Wraith]

3 hours ago, Doko said:

Yes i have said it manh times.

Sentinels do mortal wound on wound rolls and cost 160 

Kroak cant extend the range of his broken spell by no means and cost 400

The Sentinels could go to 210, so to stop order armies taking more than 10 as allies.   They are still worth it at that point cost. Some of the other Lumineth battleline seem a bit undercoated also, considering that MW output.

Anything with Slann keyword could group 100 points. Other Seraphon are undercosted. 10 points could be added to anything with Saurus keyword, and 20 points to anything with Skink keyword. That would drop Seraphon down to normal levels. At present they are like a 2500 point army in 2000 point games. No wonder the army does so well in tournaments.

 

3 hours ago, yukishiro1 said:

Porque no los dos?

By all means, nerf the most overpowered junk in the current system. But the game would really be better off if they reworked shooting for AOS 3.0 to be less something that just happens to you and more something you feel you have some control over, which I am convinced is where the NPE feeling comes from, more even than just from overpowered shooting units. 

I like your idea of 4+ to pawn wounds to another unit with 3”. You set the conditions to only Heros with ten wounds or less, or unit in melee.

What if any unit could offload wounds to any other unit in 3”. Heros with ten wounds or less get -1 to hit from shooting, no conditions. Individuals should always be harder to hit than units, so attacker must choose to lose effective shots if he goes after small characters. The off loading wounds from shooting attacks mechanic makes shooting much less discriminating as a way to do damage.

 

Missile spells, life is Lord Kroak’s spells, could possibly be classified as shooting attacks and thus subject to the wound pawning rule too, giving support characters a longer life expectancy.

 

[ReynakZhen]

No idea if anyone had mentioned something like what i'm about to say. What I would love to see for the next edition is every army getting specialized units that excel in a particular phase of a turn. Meaning, every army has a unit that can shoot really well, another that can disrupt shooting really well, another that can magic really well, disrupt magic really well, etc... think of it like the ultimate rock, paper, scissors game. So every army CAN specialize in say.... shooting or close combat or magic, but, they could be hard countered. This way, I feel, players are more likely to diversify their lists. It would also make every unit viable depending on what your game plan is.

[chosen_of_khaine]

14 hours ago, Doko said:

Yes i have said it manh times.

Sentinels do mortal wound on wound rolls and cost 160 

Kroak cant extend the range of his broken spell by no means and cost 400

Sentinels would be terrible at 160 with MW on wound rolls, one or the other would be fine.

The no-LOS shot could also be changed to once per game, or make the Lofted shots require you to not move that turn.

Edited March 2, 2021 by chosen_of_khaine

[Noserenda]

The problem with guessing ranges was the effect on newbies, i mean i can laser guess ranges because i was obsessed with Cannons for years but most people dont learn that skill elsewhere, especially in Imperial measurements (Just some tradesmen afaik) and given the way getting it wrong often ends in a bad time it outright drives some people away, which is bad. Especially bad because past a certain skill point its hardly guessing anyway.

[The World Tree]

Guessing range tests your ability to guess range. It requires no tactical skill - it is absurd and bad. We should not bring it back unless you want to play other parlour games as part of the rules.

[yukishiro1]

A thought I had in the shower today:

What if all shooting had to be declared before any of it was resolved? Right now, shooting has the best of both worlds in that, unlike combat, you both resolve it unit by unit, seeing how each goes before deciding on the target for the next...but there's no downside, because your opponent doesn't get to activate in-between. Because the opponent has no input during the phase, I don't see any justification for this "have your cake and eat it too" approach. It also "makes sense" in the sense that all this shooting is actually occurring at the same time anyway - why should one unit get to wait to see the results of the prior unit before choosing where it is going to shoot? The individual models in each unit don't get to do this, so why should you be able to do so from unit to unit? 

This would have a limited impact on shooting overall (and no impact on lists with only a single unit that shoots, or units with such short-range shooting that their targets are more or less defined in the movement phase) - but it would have a significant impact on ranged-heavy lists that rely on no-scoping out particular juicy targets with perfect efficiency. If you had to commit ahead of time, if you really, absolutely wanted that character dead...you'd have to commit a lot more than the statistically average number of shots required to kill it. The result would be a more interesting shooting phase, and the player on the receiving end would get to at least console themselves that they made their opponent waste a lot of shots - or would be positively happy if the opponent misallocates and your character survives as a result. 

It would be a big buff for IDK, though - you'd need to change that rule in some way. The easiest and most balance-neutral would be to allow you to declare against any target, but when it comes to actually resolving the shots, you are forced to fire at the closest thing if it isn't the target you chose to shoot at at the start of the phase. That way the rule still functions exactly the same as it did before in practice, without either a huge buff or a nerf. 

 

Edited March 4, 2021 by yukishiro1

[Boar]

48 minutes ago, yukishiro1 said:

What if all shooting had to be declared before any of it was resolved?

I fear that would made process of selecting targets for shooty armies even longer. If you are against someone with 2-3 units than yeah, but vs f.ex. KO?

[yukishiro1]

Well, I mean, it would in the sense that it would require the KO player to actually plan things more carefully beforehand, which probably takes more time than just winging it as you go. But anything that adds tactical depth will have that effect. I mean you could also say that we should just have the player whose turn it is fight first with all their units, because it takes time to choose which unit is most important to fight with first. This is something combat armies routinely deal with - and with a much bigger consequence for choosing badly. I'm not sure why we think shooting should be exempt completely, other than the fact that this is how it has worked in the past. 

Right now we have a game where we have one major phase, shooting (battleshock doesn't really count as a real phase), which is basically a dummies' version of the game with almost none of the complexity or tactical depth of the other phases. That seems like a weird way to set up a game. 

Edited March 4, 2021 by yukishiro1

[Landohammer]

On 3/2/2021 at 11:18 AM, chosen_of_khaine said:

Sentinels would be terrible at 160 with MW on wound rolls, one or the other would be fine.

So basically like Sisters of the Watch? 

We are approaching a point of imbalance in the game where the community needs to get involved. Kroak, Sentinels, Hearthguard, Fly High, Flamers, Snake Ladies and Eels need immediate action. 

20% temporary point hike on the named units until a FAQ hits. We did it before with Swedish comp and we can do it again if necessary. 

 

[Boar]

3 hours ago, yukishiro1 said:

Well, I mean, it would in the sense that it would require the KO player to actually plan things more carefully beforehand, which probably takes more time than just winging it as you go.

It's already required, I don't see how KO in particular can "wing it" and get even decent result.