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Beasts of Chaos army rules changes ideas


Maddpainting

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I feel a lot of our Problem is lack of rules that works for our many different units. Without changing too much of the warscrolls (which I want and we need and I would) I also think our Core rules should change first. I have a list of Army rules/abilities I think will fit our army better and would like to share my ideas.

Brayherd
Primal Fury:
Units that made a charge move this turn gains re-roll wounds rolls of 1. If the unit attacking has more than 10 models in it you can re-roll hits rolls of 1.

This is for Brayherd only, this will give Brayherd that real herd mentality when there are lots of them and they are in the mist of the fight they are just enrage and their primal instincts takes over.

Thunderscorn
Creatures of the storm:
In the Hero phase a Thunderscorn unit not in engagement range may Ride the Lightning., and if it is within engagement range then it may instead Thunderclap.

Ride the Lightning: Pick this unit up and place it anywhere wholly within 18" and outside of 9" of an enemy unit.
Thunderclap: Roll a D6 for each Thunderscorn model, on a 3+ you deal 1 MW to a enemy unit within engagement range, on a 6+ you instead deal D3 MW's.

This will make Thunderscorn feel fluffy, they are suppose to come down on a bolt of lightning and have lightning abilities.

Warherd
Bloodgorge:
At the end of combat phase for each model slain by this unit roll a D6 and for each 2+ you heal 1 wound to that unit. If that unit was healed for the rest of the turn they re-roll off wound rolls.

Bullgors are suppose to feed in the middle of the battle, this will heal them (you know b.c they are easting) and make them mad if they have to do combat again that same turn making them more scary than before.

Monsters of Chaos
Feral Monsters:
Monsters of Chaos units other than Thunderscorn can re-roll failed charges against any unit that took damage in the same turn and has a Bravery of +3 the turn they destroyed an enemy unit.

This makes monsters feel like monsters, they get the sense of blood and goes after them.

Monsters of Chaos additive changes
Mightiest of the Monsters: Shaggoths and Jabberscythe may be chosen as a Leader, and if they are your General then all Monsters of Chaos Behemoths, War Hounds, and Dragon Ogres with the Monsters of Chaos Keyword becomes Battleline.

This is to make the Monsters feel like an army, want to run lots of Cocktrices, Jabbers, and Hounds? Perfect!

Brayherd Ambush stays the same.

Let me know what you think!

PS, yes I didn't address all the issues, some warcroll changes, and summoning table needs to be modified after all points. But the focus was on the army rules as a whole and not warscrolls for now. I feel this needs to happen before you can change some of the warcrolls.

PPS: I am trying to fix the grammar whenever I see it, i need to re-read things many times as I have a visual impairment. 

Edited by Maddpainting
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23 minutes ago, Maddpainting said:

Let me know what you think.


Regarding Warherd all their abilities are short and missed the mark.  Each unit should heal, not all.  The doombull should affect units within a range again not strictly one unit.  If troggoths hit on 3s so should Bullgors.  

I mean,.. we are all thinking about bandaids for our beloved goats (and cows, and chickens, and... uh yeah)...  The army lacks so much effectiveness other than to die fast and be good at it.  

it's crazy, GW has had a Beasts of Chaos army since 2003 (well longer but I got back in in 2003) and it has always lacked punch and it devolved into a couple core builds that people could work but never really podium other than past maybe 3rd or 4th.  

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I think you miss understood the Warherd ability, if a unit kills any model that unit can heal. How does the Doombull fit into that? Its a army wide ability that all Warherd gets, even Doombulls, Cygors, Ghorgons, and Bullgors. 

Also these are Army rules not Warscrolls or stats of the units.

PS: Its ok if we lack the punch if w can pick what and when to fight. You have to give something up for that. But it can't be too much either. These ideas helps with that.

Edited by Maddpainting
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Brayherd
Primal Fury:
 Units that made a charge move this turn gains re-roll wounds rolls of 1. If the unit attacking has more than 10 models in it you can re-roll hits rolls of 1.

This is for Brayherd only, this will give Brayherd that real herd mentality when there are lots of them and they are in the mist of the fight they are just enrage and their primal instincts takes over.

Very nice and fluffy!

 

Thunderscorn
Creatures of the storm:
 In the Hero phase a Thunderscorn unit not in engagement range may Ride the Lightning., and if it is within engagement range then it may instead Thunderclap.

Ride the Lightning: Pick this unit up and place it anywhere wholly within 18" and outside of 9" of an enemy unit.
Thunderclap: Roll a D6 for each Thunderscorn model, on a 3+ you deal 1 MW to a enemy unit within engagement range, on a 6+ you instead deal D3 MW's.

This will make Thunderscorn feel fluffy, they are suppose to come down on a bolt of lightning and have lightning abilities.

I'm not a big fan of teleporting dragon ogors... They can be fast, but still teleporting mmmmh... I would prefer a constant -1 to hit for archers ina 6-9'' bubble because they carry the storm with them... You can't shoot into a blizzard...

Warherd
Bloodgorge:
 At the end of combat phase for each model slain by this unit roll a D6 and for each 2+ you heal 1 wound to that unit. If that unit was healed for the rest of the turn they re-roll off wound rolls.

Bullgors are suppose to feed in the middle of the battle, this will heal them (you know b.c they are easting) and make them mad if they have to do combat again that same turn making them more scary than before.

I think this is a total miss, but not on your side, at very start it's an ability that increases durability on a unit that is not supposed to be durable... It's a hammer unit not an anvil, all Bullgor abilities should be into damage output, no funky saves, healings and so on, it just does not synergiezes well with the unit. You do not gain anything if you heal even 3W ona  single Bullgor they are still 4W with a 5+... They need more attacks, more mortal wounds more mobility on the charge.

Monsters of Chaos
Feral Monsters:
 Monsters of Chaos units other than Thunderscorn can re-roll failed charges against any unit that took damage in the same turn and has a Bravery of +3 the turn they destroyed an enemy unit.

This makes monsters feel like monsters, they get the sense of blood and goes after them.

I like this one, but I think it's still not enough to field monsters instead of regular units... They have very limited synergies so they need to hit hard and fast cause they die even faster. 

Monsters of Chaos additive changes
Mightiest of the Monsters: Shaggoths and Jabberscythe may be chosen as a Leader, and if they are your General then all Monsters of Chaos Behemoths, War Hounds, and Dragon Ogres with the Monsters of Chaos Keyword becomes Battleline.

This is to make the Monsters feel like an army, want to run lots of Cocktrices, Jabbers, and Hounds? Perfect!

Love this one.

Brayherd Ambush stays the same.

It's a mediocre rule, I wish it was more flexible and useful, especially nowdays considering how many armies can ambush, teleport, summon better than us who are supposed to be "THE ambushing army", but again it still gives some extra options so ok...

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Bullgors from all long as I can remember has always had rules for themt o eat in combat, older rules made them not Over run and cased fear. If they had to eat as part of the fluff I see that as a fluffy rule. Maybe give them -1LD as a fear to ad. But its not really about making them tanky.  Ignoring fluff of the gorge rule, I would give them a Charging does MW's rules.

Optional: Warherd: Raging charge: When this unit completes a charge move, for each model within 1" of an enemy model roll a D6 and on a 4+ deal 1MW, on a 6+ deal D3 MW's. Add +1 to rolls if the unit is Behemoth or Character.

Ambush I didn't get into for now. 

About Monsters, well I am keeping in mind that I want to also redo all of their warscrolls.

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On 1/25/2021 at 8:33 AM, Maddpainting said:

I think you miss understood the Warherd ability, if a unit kills any model that unit can heal. How does the Doombull fit into that? Its a army wide ability that all Warherd gets, even Doombulls, Cygors, Ghorgons, and Bullgors. 

Also these are Army rules not Warscrolls or stats of the units.

PS: Its ok if we lack the punch if w can pick what and when to fight. You have to give something up for that. But it can't be too much either. These ideas helps with that.

Sorry I was thinking in addition not in relation to yours.  Yes as army-wide I like that each unit gets the ability to try to heal instead of one unit. 

However I think the described level of healing could be quite drastic and I'm not sure if it makes sense.  Imagine a DB healing 7W in a turn, or a Ghorgon healing 13 wounds in a turn.  Lorewise and game-wise it seems extreme.  Puts it in the level of Alarielle super heals but automatically.   

 

Historically fixing BoC involves addressing what GW wants the army to be.  If we just spam chaff and die slowly it fits novel lore.  

In 6th/7th rules became a mixed bag of no marks, marks, etc (typical GW garbage idiocy) and some things that worked.  Doombull Khorne with 4-5 man units had amazing built in dispelling as well as bucket loads of good quality attacks.  

In 8th we were this elite horde where the army wasn't a true horde (maybe 120-140 models vs 200+) but also we could get things to fight better.

Ideally we want our elite to be really destructive when it hits (they sort of went that way with Bestigors which was nice) and our chaff to be just,.. chaff that dies.  

They did a few things right with BoC and I would worry that would disappear when fixing other issues.  Watching GW miss the mark with goats and cows for 18 years shows me while they are happy to toss us the odd bone it's an afterthought.  Keen to take away what's good and do a weird fix in other ways.  

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6 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

Yeah thats ok they heal to full, they are lacking in armor. Many other Behemoths has after saves, 4+ saves, if not a 3+, ignores a rend, ignore a point of damage, etc.... 

Hmmm yeah... monsters are tricky, GW hasn't done an amazing job a non-hero based Monsters.  They've done an okay job.  

I was painting some old 1987 Jes Goodwin Wardancer for a Wildwood Ranger.  Rangers have a goodish profile 3+/3+ and it made me think GW isn't doing a good job on Troggoths or Bullgors as a result.  Giving them 3+ to counter the dice spiking involved takes away what elite aelves should have (WS has LONG been an issue with me dating back to 6th ed).  The lack of a lot of 2+ isn't a good either.

So I feel, this presents issue with Bullgors.  High risk high reward unit that in game presents unreliability.  I don't want to see them watered down to multi-wound Bestigors but I don't want to see them become martial ninjas.  Perhaps a better mechanic for an aura for WArherd to get better at attacking and wounding based on proximity (doombull has a trait for +1 to hit/A for Bullgors and his cmd ability is +1 to wound).  This way the pairing and focus on going Warherd is self-helpful for the army.  

I dunno,.. I love the army and it's not getting the attention it deserves. :(

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11 hours ago, Popisdead said:

Hmmm yeah... monsters are tricky, GW hasn't done an amazing job a non-hero based Monsters.  They've done an okay job.  

I was painting some old 1987 Jes Goodwin Wardancer for a Wildwood Ranger.  Rangers have a goodish profile 3+/3+ and it made me think GW isn't doing a good job on Troggoths or Bullgors as a result.  Giving them 3+ to counter the dice spiking involved takes away what elite aelves should have (WS has LONG been an issue with me dating back to 6th ed).  The lack of a lot of 2+ isn't a good either.

So I feel, this presents issue with Bullgors.  High risk high reward unit that in game presents unreliability.  I don't want to see them watered down to multi-wound Bestigors but I don't want to see them become martial ninjas.  Perhaps a better mechanic for an aura for WArherd to get better at attacking and wounding based on proximity (doombull has a trait for +1 to hit/A for Bullgors and his cmd ability is +1 to wound).  This way the pairing and focus on going Warherd is self-helpful for the army.  

I dunno,.. I love the army and it's not getting the attention it deserves. :(

Other options is remove the gorge and go in on bull charging, MW's on the charge or something.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I think a few small subtle changes to army wide rules would help beasts go from a great looking, cool themed army that loses, to a kinda compedativle one

-Change the ambush rule to can arrive 2d6 away from enemy models, this would be totally unique giving the chance for a easy charge getting you stuck

-add -1 to your opponents rend for each other beast unit of 10+models within 6", only canceling rend this wouldn't be OP but adds a bit of power and encourages a bit of beast hoard play 

-allow the heard stone to be placed anywhere in your territory, this would bring the affect in soner without going OP

-get d3 primordial call points a turn, our units are not that good that this would change the game

All of these would leave the units untouched but add survival, surprise charges and extra units....... bang we compete

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 2/2/2021 at 7:41 AM, Televiper11 said:

I’d love to see a battalion for hunting packs of Centigors, Razorgors & Chaos Hounds — all with new plastic kits, natch! Would make a great battlebox, GW, especially with a new, named Centigor hero.

Bring back Captain Kirk, the Centigor named Ghorros who slayed a thousand enemies then laid a 1000 ladies.  Make Centigors Monstrous Cavalry like models not fast cav.  Make the chariot kit a Razorgor kit again and stop with the old ugly crappy looking piggies.  

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  • 2 months later...

Army wide buff of some sort if you summon a monster using primordial call points. Make summoning giants/jabberslyth/chimera worth it.

If I was some rank and file gor and I just watched my bray shaman mate cut his leg off to summon a jabberslyth, I'd get pretty pumped. 

Could be the way to make gor viable. +1 attack if a monster is summoned.

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On 3/10/2021 at 5:32 PM, Popisdead said:

Bring back Captain Kirk, the Centigor named Ghorros who slayed a thousand enemies then laid a 1000 ladies.  Make Centigors Monstrous Cavalry like models not fast cav.  Make the chariot kit a Razorgor kit again and stop with the old ugly crappy looking piggies.  

This. Bring back Ghorrok. Clearly fathered Kragnos.

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19 hours ago, Dolomedes said:

 Clearly fathered Kragnos.

haha funny.  I'm worried Centigors will end up in Destruction as some re-imagined different army.  Or that Kragnos is a salvaged CAD of the 8th ed version of Centigors that never materialized.  

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1 hour ago, Popisdead said:

haha funny.  I'm worried Centigors will end up in Destruction as some re-imagined different army.  Or that Kragnos is a salvaged CAD of the 8th ed version of Centigors that never materialized.  

God I hope not. Kragnos is clearly what centigors should have been. I find it strange that Kragnos isn't BoC - it's the most Beastmen model I've ever seen.

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On 2/18/2021 at 3:37 AM, Blair said:

 

-Change the ambush rule to can arrive 2d6 away from enemy models, this would be totally unique giving the chance for a easy charge getting you stuck

 

-get d3 primordial call points a turn, our units are not that good that this would change the game

 

I love these two ideas, although the ambush should probably be 5 or 6 + 1d6.

 

As far as Warherd and/or monsters go I think bringing back an overrun rule would be very fitting. Perhaps something like "If you wipe out a unit on the turn you charge you can immediately make another charge move". Would probably be OP to allow a second combat but they can count as having charged in the next combat phase. This represents them stampeding through chaff in a bloodlust and keeps them from being stopped by typical speed bump tactics. 

 

 

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22 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

Won't happen.

if only online gentlemen's bets for a soda pop or beer were possible :P  

On 6/9/2021 at 10:38 AM, Dolomedes said:

God I hope not. Kragnos is clearly what centigors should have been. I find it strange that Kragnos isn't BoC - it's the most Beastmen model I've ever seen.

 

Oh i'm  with you both,... I just worry it may happen.  I mean,.. it's one unit lost in one army that's mostly neglected.  And GW has done an amazing job building up new armies.  Because to be honest I"m very confused why it's Destruction,... doesn't fit the bill at all,.. 

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32 minutes ago, Popisdead said:

if only online gentlemen's bets for a soda pop or beer were possible :P  

 

Oh i'm  with you both,... I just worry it may happen.  I mean,.. it's one unit lost in one army that's mostly neglected.  And GW has done an amazing job building up new armies.  Because to be honest I"m very confused why it's Destruction,... doesn't fit the bill at all,.. 

You are definetely not the only one, since Kragnos (limited edition) is still available on the GW's site... I my hobby group (it's quite large, over 20 players), almost half of them are mainly destruction players between Ironjawz, Gloomspite, SoB and Beastclaw, and not one of them likes Kragnos. Actually most of them are burning with anger because of Godrakk being put aside and in his place they got a "horse" (that's how they call it). I thought I would be the saffest one since I still belive he fits perfectly into BoC, but oh man did those Orruk players got mad.

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