Do you feel cheated?

[Neverchosen]

20 minutes ago, Enoby said:

You see a lot of people comment on FB "I wish I didn't buy X now Y's coming out, guess I'll buy both" on new releases. Unfortunately, less customer knowledge means more impulse buys and importantly, more hype. 

This is why I keep making my numerous Malerion jokes*, I am excited by a lot of the news but I am trying to remind myself there will be something else on the horizon. However, I am not the choosiest of people and would be happy with any army so I feel like in waiting I am just trying to find something that contrasts interestingly with my current armies (S2D & BCR). I feel like LRL and KO are the best of the current lines but I also know that a potential Devouted of Sigmar army might also make a nice opponent for my current forces. I had some Idoneth but the hobby aspect of the Force was a little daunting for me. I also played Dark Elves in fantasy so I am always interested in in DOK and Malerion's forces (I feel Shadow and Pain is the obvious solution to my predicament as it expands my Chaotic horizons and nets me my favourite order faction).

However, I persist in waiting for news that will eclipse my current interests. Here's hoping for a fun Halfling army sometime in the near future. 

*I will switch to Valaya hype when Malerion is released!

Edited January 26, 2021 by Neverchosen

[Fairbanks]

On 1/25/2021 at 5:41 AM, HollowHills said:

Specifically interested to hear from DoK and Lumineth players.

BR Morathi came out only a couple of months ago and now we are getting a DoK battletome which will presumably contain all the rules.

Lumineth only officially released in September but are now seeing the range doubled with none of those units being represented in the battletome. 

Given that many of us haven't been able to play in person for almost a year, coupled with continued price increases this seems a bit scummy to me.

I wanted to say “No, and I don’t think you should.” since most people got their Battletome when they picked up the Lumineth Box.

Then I remembered the box was $185. So yea, it’s not worth it.

——

It’s in poor taste, and I’d draw comparisons to Sisters of Battle getting the same shaft... but everything in 9th is getting a new book. So it’s more like the SM codex that came out before 9th did, and then was quickly replaced. I am of the conspiracy theory that everything, including 9th Ed 40K, got shifted around due to Covid.

Alas, there are a few solutions I see that would defuse my opinion:

1. The rules are entirely in BR Teclis and nowhere else for at least a year, when the last of the Realm-Lords come out.

2. Lumineth Sky-Lords. They get Archerboys as Battleline, Speardudes and Horsemen as Battleline-If, Teclis, a few new models, but don’t get the Cowdudes or the Great Big Pile of Bull (those can Ally in).

[Chikout]

I don't feel cheated by this at all. The lumineth book  felt totally like half a book. If anything I was disappointed then. They even hinted in the lore of the book at the new units that are coming out including including a spirit that resembled a fox I bought the battletome at launch but didn't buy any of the units because I was waiting to see what the rest of the army would look like. I'm actually presently surprised to see the other units come out so soon. 

When it comes to age of sigmar books I don't just buy them for the rules, in fact my favorite part is the lore and the art. So to get a second book with a hopefully strong narrative, more brand new art and a deepening of the law of The Lumineth is great.

The DoK situation is a bit more complicated. For those who don't particularly care about the law I'm sure they would have preferred to just buy the new battletome if it contains all the same rules that were in broken realms one.

That said, Morathi was a great book for its story alone; that's why I bought it. 

The whole situation is much better than it used to be. It was only about 6 years ago that you found out what was coming the day the preorder came out. 

Now we have a pretty good idea of what the next several months of releases are though I would love to see a road map for AoS in the style of the underworlds one. 

[Twisted Firaun]

I feel cheated on exactly two things: the squatting of Legion of Azgorh and no Gravelords info, other than that I'm fine. The only reason I'm paying attention to the Elgi releases is for bits for Emperor's Children/Slaanesh Daemons conversions.

[Carnith]

I don't have lumineth, but I wanted them and I'm definitely more interested in the wind temple and Vanari units over the Alarith. I might feel more cheated if I bought that starter box, but if it was an army I truly wanted, then the lore, warscrolls, and price might make it worth it. For all we know there is no Lumineth tome 2 and just the BR: Teclis is the rest of things until wave 3 some years later. 

[Jaskier]

I bought the Lumineth 'starter' box on release day and  as painful as it is, I've yet to actually touch anything in it precisely because I've been waiting for a second wave to bulk the faction out. I fully expect the limited edition battletome in that box will either never see use, or if it does, it will have a very limited shelf life - assuming their second battletome comes later this year after BR: Teclis has had its day. Given much of the box's 'value' comes from that battletome, that's not a great feeling. I am also a Slaanesh player with a battletome that is less than two years old, and yet there's a new one just around the corner.

I don't feel ripped off at all. The current Slaanesh battletome sucks - it's painfully imbalanced and mostly rewards one type of build - and is in dire need of a ground-up redo. Lumineth were also severely lacking at release, one of the big reasons being the lack of choice which BR: Teclis will rectify. While one could argue they could have waited to release the two groups together, at least this way we got to start our Lumineth armies a year earlier than we would've otherwise, as presumably the models in the second wave weren't ready yet. Ditto the Slaanesh mortals.

Edited January 27, 2021 by Jaskier

[Icarion]

I'm a bit salty I bought warscroll cards for half a faction. But I don't really feel cheated by the new lumineth. realistically, any player who collects and games with an army featured in a Broken Realms book is going to pick up that book.

So, I'm not upset that I have to buy "battletome 2.0" in the form of Broken Realms: Teclis, I was going to end up buying their BR book anyways, and pairing it with meaningful new rules and a huge miniature release just makes it even better value.

[LuminethMage]

13 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

...

I think the most valid grievance is that people expected their LRL book to be good for a while (like the usually assumed three or so years). I definitely don't think that it's reasonable to assert that all Lumineth players would have bought BR: Teclis anyway. I did not get BR: Morathi because I didn't think the Cities rules in there were worth it for me, even though I play Cities. If BR: Teclis only had a few battalions or a new subfaction in it, I am sure many Lumineth players would have skipped it. Some might not have bought into Lumineth wave one at all if they had known a year ago that the army would get a second wave and book in the near future.

I think we could view the issue as GW using their information advantage (they knew LRL 2 would be coming, players did not) to get players to buy something they would otherwise not have if they had the same information as GW. And it's reasonable to suspect that GW knew this would be the case (that people would not buy into Lumineth at release to the same degree if they knew more was coming a year later) and chose not to provide the pertinent information to players precisely because they thought doing so would reduce initial sales. This is whole situation is definitely not ethically neutral. Feeling cheated (for lack of a better word) is justified.

...

I think you make some good, valid points, but it feels a bit one-sided to me. 

- Battletomes being good for a while: We don't know if the Lumineth BT becomes outdated because of that. Right now we only know that likely the new units will be in BR Teclis and you can still use the BT just fine for at least several more month. Many people also feel 3 years is too long without any major releases or updates. The number one complaint generally is - why doesn't my faction not get any new stuff. There isn't some magical time frame everyone likes. And as you say 3 years is just an assumption based on previous releases not some kind of rule they put out.

- Might not have bought: Some people didn't buy the first wave of Lumineth precisely because they wanted to see more of them before they commit. GW made it pretty obvious that more is coming for the Lumineth relatively soon, and this was broadly discussed among people wanting to buy them. Some people might not have bought Lumineth if they knew that Slaanesh is coming soon, or that they are relatively difficult to build and paint, or when they realized how they play on the board, or if they had known they can't play because of Covid. Some Fyreslayer players might not have invested in that army if they'd known they don't get a second release for 5 years. Some Sylvaneth players might not have invested in the army if they had known that it's not competitive for a long time. People regret buying stuff all the time, because our expectations are often wrong. All the talk about mountains of grey plastic didn't just start in the last 2 months. I think it's unfair to put all the fault on GW or a single sales strategy. 

- Information advantage: That's true of course. GW has an advantage there, and tries to sell as many models to us as they possibly can. But some of the assumption behind your's and many other posts here, are just that - assumptions. We don't know if splitting the release of the Lumineth was actually good for their sales. Some of the same people who think now this is all an evil master plan by GW were saying that Lumineth didn't sell well just a few weeks ago. I doubt that such decisions are simply done because of one element. They must have thought that at least splitting the release won't hurt them of course, but there are other possible reasons, like how the Lumineth release fits with the other releases they are planning for the BR campaign, what to include there and so on. Nor is it clear to me, that for people who are really into a faction it's so much better to have all the goodies available in one go, instead of splitting it. Even if you spend more in the long run, it could have been better for you, then overspending at one point. 

And again, there are a lot of people who are happy about having a chance to buy more Lumineth and having a campaign book for them. Look at this thread alone, or our TGA Lumineth forum. The same is true if you went to the Lumineth FB, Lumineth discord etc. Most people are excited! And some do feel bad about it, as it's always the case. But even here on our forum, I've seen more people excitedly returning back to the Lumineth than people grumbling about having to buy BR Teclis. 

And if having to buy an extra book is really an issue, I think it's still overblown to brings ethics into this. It's about someone spending a bit too much on a hobby, that they likely would have spent otherwise on the same hobby. Not great of course, and if people regret their buys all the time, that will affect sales in the long run too, but I don't think you can call this unethical or cheating. 

[someone2040]

So I bought into Lumineth Realmlords only last Christmas, as I found a place to buy them at an acceptable price to me.

I think one of the big strengths of Age of Sigmar is the fact you can get a lot of stuff free of cost like warscrolls and points. If I have a battletome, Games Workshop should be able to make a new unit which I can add to my army. Now, maybe they'll include extra warscroll battalions and the like in a book which makes them better, but I find warscroll battalions very optional to running units.

However, Lumineth work a little differently than a lot of other armies. Each of their temples have different battle traits and spell lores. So what I think is going to happen, is that Games Workshop are going to force me to buy this additional book to actually utilise these units in my army as they'll print the Wind and River temple allegiance rules within the book.

Basically, it's just emphasizing that the book was incomplete on print as it doesn't have the rules for making use of all the Lumineth.

I don't think I would've minded it if this was like 2 years after the Lumineth release, but coming so soon it makes me think "Well, am I going to have to buy another $80AUD book in another year to play with these other new units that they make". In particular I think there are a fair few other armies that could've used this second wave before Lumineth, so I think that is part of what makes it rub a little wrong as well.

 

That being said, that is just based on what I think will happen. It could turn out to be wrong. Also, it doesn't upset me too much, as at the end of the day it looks like a lot of super cool models are going to come out and expand the range. So if I have to get another book and set of warscroll cards to use them, then so be it.

 

As a Lumineth fan, excited for the new units. As a fan of the game in general, a little concerned over the path it may lead down (In the same way was concerning when Stormcast were getting an update every year)

Edited January 27, 2021 by someone2040

[loki]

On 1/25/2021 at 7:41 PM, HollowHills said:

Specifically interested to hear from DoK and Lumineth players.

BR Morathi came out only a couple of months ago and now we are getting a DoK battletome which will presumably contain all the rules.

Lumineth only officially released in September but are now seeing the range doubled with none of those units being represented in the battletome. 

Given that many of us haven't been able to play in person for almost a year, coupled with continued price increases this seems a bit scummy to me.

Give us back the good old days of GW releases when the complaints were the long periods of time with no releases for an army. Now the complaint is that they come too quickly!  

Correct me if I am wrong but you now get unit rules in the miniature box. The whole philosophy of this was specifically so that GW can release new units without having to co-ordinate them around the releases of Battle Tomes and Codexes.

I do not see the problem releasing new minis not in the army books. Buy the minis and you have the rules. If you don't buy the minis, it doesn't matter if the rules aren't in the Battle Tome or Codex.

 

[stratigo]

9 hours ago, Sleboda said:

On roadmaps:

GW would be foolish to do them for AoS and 40K.

People would be more likely to save up for the things they want and skip stuff that comes out before their chosen items. As much as folks may not want to admit it, impulse control is hard. Not knowing what is coming down the road removes a barrier to impulse purchasing. 

Sure, you may suspect that a new release is coming for your army in four months, but if you don't know it for sure, you are more likely to part with the cash you currently have to excitedly buy what comes out this week, and then find more money in your budget (perhaps you skip a video game or concert down the road in order to buy the toy soldiers that you didn't know were coming but then did) for the next thing later on.

As to other companies in this industry using roadmaps ... yeah, well, let's compare the financials of those companies and GW. It's not even close.

What GW is doing works. It's working very, very well.

 

Eg, GW makes a lot of money off of being unethical. 

[JackStreicher]

Everyone posting in here: Welcome, you are customers now and worshippers no longer

On a serious note: GW is the same as they were under Kirby. They just added a Social media team (a good one) and called themselves „new GW“.

Tbh: If the miniatures of Mantic were more appealing and less blocky I‘d gladly skip GW‘s for good. They appear to be a hobbyist company and not a greedy corpo like GW.

Edited January 27, 2021 by JackStreicher

[loki]

7 minutes ago, stratigo said:

Eg, GW makes a lot of money off of being unethical. 

GW makes a lot of money by having a good business strategy. If people think they are unethical, do not buy from them. Get an alternative hobby or buy from an alternative vendor. I have been a customer of GW for 25 years. I am glad they are still in existence and making great products. I just do not get the continual bitching and moaning of people. If you do not like GW, move on!

There seems to be a lot more negative comments on this site now a days as compared when it first started with the philosophy to be positive about AoS's initial release. Probably why I do not visit as often.  

Apologies if I have offended anybody, I do not want to start a debate. Just my two cents worth.

[stratigo]

15 minutes ago, loki said:

GW makes a lot of money by having a good business strategy. If people think they are unethical, do not buy from them. Get an alternative hobby or buy from an alternative vendor. I have been a customer of GW for 25 years. I am glad they are still in existence and making great products. I just do not get the continual bitching and moaning of people. If you do not like GW, move on!

There seems to be a lot more negative comments on this site now a days as compared when it first started with the philosophy to be positive about AoS's initial release. Probably why I do not visit as often.  

Apologies if I have offended anybody, I do not want to start a debate. Just my two cents worth.

"Ugh people, stop talking about business ethics, I'm completely happy buying without considering them"

 

Using an information advantage in an attempt (even one that backfires) to get people to make purchases they would not if they had the information being withheld is a violation of business ethics. Indeed in serious cases it is actively illegal even here in America. It is not something we should blithely scoot past as "who cares, pretty models". It is a big deal. If you believe in the free market, you should be mad about this. The free market is no longer free if one side of a transaction holds a decisive information advantage over the other. People are regularly being bludgeoned with the idea that it's their fault if don't they take hours researching products before purchase after they finish their 60 hour workweek. But the second a business actively withholds information for advantage, well now it's just fine? Come on people. I know having a consistent ethical framework is hard, but unless you watched the wolf of wall street and went "yeah, that's how markets SHOULD work", then business strategies like this SHOULD NOT be acceptable.  Ethics matter, and egoism is a pretty atrocious ethical framework that will backfire on you unless you have the wealth of Bezos.

Edited January 27, 2021 by stratigo

[JackStreicher]

1 hour ago, loki said:

There seems to be a lot more negative comments on this site now a days as compared when it first started with the philosophy to be positive about AoS's initial release. Probably why I do not visit as often.

People are positive about AoS. GW‘s way to conduct business and disregard for their customers is the real issue. The usual life cycle is always the same: People are enthusiastic about the product, then GW‘s true colors become ever clearer and people get upset.

 

About just moving on: Because it‘s just that easy right? You sell off your 15k points of whatever army, stop to play WH games, which means there‘s no reason to visit your club anymore since everybody, only plays WH games. Finally you start a niche-game in a niche-hobby. Finally, If you are lucky, you can get in 2 games a year due to the small fanbase. 

It‘s so easy! And has almost NO ramifications on your hobby. 🤣

🤨 Sir, you did not think your over-simplification through

Edited January 27, 2021 by JackStreicher

[zilberfrid]

23 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

People are positive about AoS. GW‘s way to conduct business and disregard for their customers is the real issue. The usual life cycle is always the same: People are enthusiastic about the product, then GW‘s true colors become ever clearer and people get upset.

About just moving on: Because it‘s just that easy right? You sell off your 15k points of whatever army, stop to play WH games, which means there‘s no reason to visit your club anymore since everybody, only plays WH games. Finally you start a niche-game in a niche-hobby. Finally, If you are lucky, you can get in 2 games a year due to the small fanbase. 

It‘s so easy! And has almost NO ramifications on your hobby. 🤣

🤨 Sir, you did not think your over-simplification through

It depends. I do still get in a Frostgrave game with my friends, while I could never get them to play AoS. Mostly due to the barrier of entry of Frostgrave being much lower.

If noone is going to start playing a new game, you won't get a game running. Get yourself a miniature agnostic rulebook, and others will already have the models to play it. Hell, support for WHU models is already better (Zarbag's Gitz is one of the Frostgrave warbands, basically as-is).

[Shearl]

11 hours ago, Sleboda said:

People have said this for, literally, several decades. It's like how people rally behind the next miniature wargame as "the one that finally takes down 40K" only to see that system bomb and be dead in under five years.

I worked in GW trade sales. We always knew there was limitless growth potential. World population is increasing, and every newborn whelp becomes a potential customer down the road. We're making more new customers every night in the back seat of our station wagons.

As to efforts at bringing in new customers, I can tell you it's pretty much priority number one for them. Our mantra was "new customers are our life's blood."

Nearly every single decision factored in recruitment. White Dwarf repeats content for a reason. New painting vidoes say the same thing as old ones regularly. Store managers are compelled to run demo games to new people or lose their job.

GW is laser focused on getting new players.

I can remember veteran players complaining that their local GW stores always prioritized new customers (often younger folks) over the more established players.  Its interesting to see the shift in opinions online that GW's marketing revolves around either focusing entirely on kids eager to spend their parents money at the expense of existing players vs the idea that GW seemingly doesn't care about new players and instead seeks to further milk existing players. Obviously those making these claims are hardly the same groups of people.

Ultimately GW is a business and they seek to make a profit there they can, and that is definitely from both new players starting armies as well as existing players adding to their collections. 

Whether it is good or not, with GW there is often a "feast or famine" situation. Either your range languishes between releases (the poor dwarfs) or you find yourself inundated with releases for your desired faction. And while I don't have an Lumineth army, I can easily say I'd be happy to see my army getting a second release. I like having options and often don't feel the need to buy every new thing for an army I collect. Plus because there's no roadmaps we don't know if this is the last Lumineth release for several years.     

[Sunshine]

1 minute ago, Shearl said:

I can remember veteran players complaining that their local GW stores always prioritized new customers (often younger folks) over the more established players.  Its interesting to see the shift in opinions online that GW's marketing revolves around either focusing entirely on kids eager to spend their parents money at the expense of existing players vs the idea that GW seemingly doesn't care about new players and instead seeks to further milk existing players. Obviously those making these claims are hardly the same groups of people.

Ultimately GW is a business and they seek to make a profit there they can, and that is definitely from both new players starting armies as well as existing players adding to their collections. 

Whether it is good or not, with GW there is often a "feast or famine" situation. Either your range languishes between releases (the poor dwarfs) or you find yourself inundated with releases for your desired faction. And while I don't have an Lumineth army, I can easily say I'd be happy to see my army getting a second release. I like having options and often don't feel the need to buy every new thing for an army I collect. Plus because there's no roadmaps we don't know if this is the last Lumineth release for several years.     

 

I agree with the feast or famine comment. It is such a shame that numerous factions have not been touched since early AoS. Whilst I do not think it will become an issue like it was with Fantasy as points and general rules see an update each year, the earlier factions do begin to lag behind and suffer from a lack of variety. It does suck for collectors of those armies but I think Games Workshop know people collect more than one army and they push customers to do this.

I am more concerned about how factions and units get dropped with little notice and this is where the feeling of being cheated comes in. I started collecting Dispossessed models and a couple of months later, the war machines were dropped as were warriors, thunderers, and longbeards. Similar has just happened with Chaos Dwarves. No notice was given so there was not enough time to complete your collection and no notice meant that you could not think twice about starting a collection with an informed decision. Instead you get well and truly shafted. 

My only saving grace is that with Fantasy returning hopefully the Dispossessed models will be viable in that; I just hope I won't need to convert the models on to square bases.

Back on the subject of Lumineth. High Elves were one of the more popular Fantasy armies so it isn't surprising that the Lumineths are getting multiple waves with a large variety of units akin to what it was like with Stormcasts at the beginning. I imagine that is why the Lumineths have also been priced so astronomically high (as well as the beautiful sculpts). I don't like the idea of a second book coming out so soon after the first but with the yearly update of the GHB, the precedent has been set.

Off topic. Thinking about all of this has made me wonder what will be my first proper AoS army. So far I have a Seraphon army (everything is ported from Fantasy), three quarters of a Slaves to Darkness army (everything again ported over), and I am starting a  Gloomsprite Gitz army (a lot ported over from Fantasy). I had started a Dispossessed army but again that range had ported over. Perhaps I will see who the starters are when 3rd edition comes out and if Stormcast aren't included in the starter set, I may go with one of them.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

Good post. A few points:

5 hours ago, LuminethMage said:

I think you make some good, valid points, but it feels a bit one-sided to me. 

- Battletomes being good for a while: We don't know if the Lumineth BT becomes outdated because of that. Right now we only know that likely the new units will be in BR Teclis and you can still use the BT just fine for at least several more month. Many people also feel 3 years is too long without any major releases or updates. The number one complaint generally is - why doesn't my faction not get any new stuff. There isn't some magical time frame everyone likes. And as you say 3 years is just an assumption based on previous releases not some kind of rule they put out.

 

I also don't think a faction getting new stuff quickly in and of itself is a reason to complain. It can be a reason to complain based on context, such as factions like Stormcast being overly pushed when it comes to models. Or indeed in this case with Lumineth: While of course you could play Lumineth with only the battletome, chances are BR: Teclis will bring lots of new stuff to the table. You could also play Lumineth without a battletome at all. But it's not unfair to say that to get access to the full army, you need the Battletome. And likely, after the second wave, you will need to buy both the Tome and BR: Teclis to get access to the full army. And I think people feeling miffed about probably needing to buy twice as many books to play their army as players of other factions is understandable. If the Lumineth Battletome had just come out at double the price of other books, that would certainly be a reason to complain.

 

5 hours ago, LuminethMage said:

- Might not have bought: Some people didn't buy the first wave of Lumineth precisely because they wanted to see more of them before they commit. GW made it pretty obvious that more is coming for the Lumineth relatively soon, and this was broadly discussed among people wanting to buy them. Some people might not have bought Lumineth if they knew that Slaanesh is coming soon, or that they are relatively difficult to build and paint, or when they realized how they play on the board, or if they had known they can't play because of Covid. Some Fyreslayer players might not have invested in that army if they'd known they don't get a second release for 5 years. Some Sylvaneth players might not have invested in the army if they had known that it's not competitive for a long time. People regret buying stuff all the time, because our expectations are often wrong. All the talk about mountains of grey plastic didn't just start in the last 2 months. I think it's unfair to put all the fault on GW or a single sales strategy.

 

It is only obvious that more Lumineth were coming in hindsight. If there were no new Lumineth models coming out for another six years, I am sure people would be saying "What are you complaining about? GW never promised you new models! You can't go off of the fluff for this kind of things!".

The point about people who might not have bought into the first wave is about the difference in information available. It's true that some Fyreslayers players might not have bought into the faction if they had known there would be no new releases for a long time. But I find it believable in that case that GW put out Fyreslayers with no future plans for them at that stage. Nobody GW likely knew for sure that there would not be more Fyreslayers releases for five years. We know GW plans their releases a long time in advance, but they probably had no concrete plans for Fyreslayers in the near future. Now, if there are actually plans at GW to have Fyreslayers be a one release army forever, I think Fyreslayers players could also feel justifiably angry that this was not disclosed to them.

 

5 hours ago, LuminethMage said:

- Information advantage: That's true of course. GW has an advantage there, and tries to sell as many models to us as they possibly can. But some of the assumption behind your's and many other posts here, are just that - assumptions. We don't know if splitting the release of the Lumineth was actually good for their sales. Some of the same people who think now this is all an evil master plan by GW were saying that Lumineth didn't sell well just a few weeks ago. I doubt that such decisions are simply done because of one element. They must have thought that at least splitting the release won't hurt them of course, but there are other possible reasons, like how the Lumineth release fits with the other releases they are planning for the BR campaign, what to include there and so on. Nor is it clear to me, that for people who are really into a faction it's so much better to have all the goodies available in one go, instead of splitting it. Even if you spend more in the long run, it could have been better for you, then overspending at one point.

 

People have to make these assumptions and predict what GW will do because GW does not disclose the relevant info, even though they have it. What's more, they choose not to disclose this info because it would be worse from a business standpoint. This is not surprising, it's how businesses act according to shareholed interests. But that does not make it automatically right from an ethical standpoint.

GW is not a natural force. It's not a situation where we all try to predict what random thing will happen, and some people get it right and win, while others get it wrong and lose. GW is aware of what their customers can reasonably expect to happen based on their previous business decisions. And they can (and it seems, do) take action to deliberately exploit this. Which sucks, because I don't want to have an adversarial relationship with GW, where both they as a company and I as a customer need to perpetually try to ****** each other over.

5 hours ago, LuminethMage said:

And again, there are a lot of people who are happy about having a chance to buy more Lumineth and having a campaign book for them. Look at this thread alone, or our TGA Lumineth forum. The same is true if you went to the Lumineth FB, Lumineth discord etc. Most people are excited! And some do feel bad about it, as it's always the case. But even here on our forum, I've seen more people excitedly returning back to the Lumineth than people grumbling about having to buy BR Teclis. 

And if having to buy an extra book is really an issue, I think it's still overblown to brings ethics into this. It's about someone spending a bit too much on a hobby, that they likely would have spent otherwise on the same hobby. Not great of course, and if people regret their buys all the time, that will affect sales in the long run too, but I don't think you can call this unethical or cheating. 

 

The problem is not with releasing more models and more books. If someone was actually complaining just about that, I think that would not be justified. But complaining about a release where the intent seems to be to get people to buy into an army, then release an update shortly after (which GW definitely was set up to do at the time of the initial release, this was not an after the fact decision) to presumably double dip with players who have already invested in the army is justified. Those players will feel more pressure to buy extra Lumineth stuff due to sunk cost. That is an underhanded tactic, no matter if it actually works out or not. It seeks to undermine the customers ability to make informed choices. And informed consent is the basis of ethics according to some schools of thought. Using a power/information differential in this way is definitely a quesiton of ethics.

[Enoby]

15 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Good post. A few points:

 

I also don't think a faction getting new stuff quickly in and of itself is a reason to complain. It can be a reason to complain based on context, such as factions like Stormcast being overly pushed when it comes to models. Or indeed in this case with Lumineth: While of course you could play Lumineth with only the battletome, chances are BR: Teclis will bring lots of new stuff to the table. You could also play Lumineth without a battletome at all. But it's not unfair to say that to get access to the full army, you need the Battletome. And likely, after the second wave, you will need to buy both the Tome and BR: Teclis to get access to the full army. And I think people feeling miffed about probably needing to buy twice as many books to play their army as players of other factions is understandable. If the Lumineth Battletome had just come out at double the price of other books, that would certainly be a reason to complain.

 

 

It is only obvious that more Lumineth were coming in hindsight. If there were no new Lumineth models coming out for another six years, I am sure people would be saying "What are you complaining about? GW never promised you new models! You can't go off of the fluff for this kind of things!".

The point about people who might not have bought into the first wave is about the difference in information available. It's true that some Fyreslayers players might not have bought into the faction if they had known there would be no new releases for a long time. But I find it believable in that case that GW put out Fyreslayers with no future plans for them at that stage. Nobody GW likely knew for sure that there would not be more Fyreslayers releases for five years. We know GW plans their releases a long time in advance, but they probably had no concrete plans for Fyreslayers in the near future. Now, if there are actually plans at GW to have Fyreslayers be a one release army forever, I think Fyreslayers players could also feel justifiably angry that this was not disclosed to them.

 

 

People have to make these assumptions and predict what GW will do because GW does not disclose the relevant info, even though they have it. What's more, they choose not to disclose this info because it would be worse from a business standpoint. This is not surprising, it's how businesses act according to shareholed interests. But that does not make it automatically right from an ethical standpoint.

GW is not a natural force. It's not a situation where we all try to predict what random thing will happen, and some people get it right and win, while others get it wrong and lose. GW is aware of what their customers can reasonably expect to happen based on their previous business decisions. And they can (and it seems, do) take action to deliberately exploit this. Which sucks, because I don't want to have an adversarial relationship with GW, where both they as a company and I as a customer need to perpetually try to ****** each other over.

 

The problem is not with releasing more models and more books. If someone was actually complaining just about that, I think that would not be justified. But complaining about a release where the intent seems to be to get people to buy into an army, then release an update shortly after (which GW definitely was set up to do at the time of the initial release, this was not an after the fact decision) to presumably double dip with players who have already invested in the army is justified. Those players will feel more pressure to buy extra Lumineth stuff due to sunk cost. That is an underhanded tactic, no matter if it actually works out or not. It seeks to undermine the customers ability to make informed choices. And informed consent is the basis of ethics according to some schools of thought. Using a power/information differential in this way is definitely a quesiton of ethics.

This is what bothers me the most. It's what I meant by feeling like DLC - it's not really, but it feels like I bought a product (the battletome) only to have an addon to that product come out very soon after with loads of new models meaning the addon will likely be needed to get the full experience (as battalions, artefacts, and spells will be in this book for the new models). GW would have known about these new models at the first release, and chose to split the release so players would need two books for the same army. I wouldn't have minded if they were just some fun additional rules to the current battletome (like BR: Morathi), but the fact they'll be tied to the new warscrolls mean they'll likely be designed to make the most use of these new models makes it feel like the second half of the battletome.

Again, I think cheated is too strong a word, but a little bit miffed might be more accurate. For those who don't mind now, how would you feel if a second Lumineth battletome was announced three months after BR: Teclis? This isn't meant to be a "gotcha", but I'm genuinely curious if it would bother you to have both BR: Teclis and the current battletome become outdated that quickly?

[whispersofblood]

2 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

People are positive about AoS. GW‘s way to conduct business and disregard for their customers is the real issue. The usual life cycle is always the same: People are enthusiastic about the product, then GW‘s true colors become ever clearer and people get upset.

 

About just moving on: Because it‘s just that easy right? You sell off your 15k points of whatever army, stop to play WH games, which means there‘s no reason to visit your club anymore since everybody, only plays WH games. Finally you start a niche-game in a niche-hobby. Finally, If you are lucky, you can get in 2 games a year due to the small fanbase. 

It‘s so easy! And has almost NO ramifications on your hobby. 🤣

🤨 Sir, you did not think your over-simplification through

We used to have similar conversations in my local store, and with our friends. The reality is that life is stressful enough, and GW will very likely always be with us. If you are finding the state of the game stressful, just step away for a bit. Maybe you come back maybe you don't but you'll be happier either way. 

I stopped playing 40k, I played HH for awhile but AoS just aggressively invaded my head and heart. I enjoyed those things while I did them, and don't regret the money I spent because I chose to spend that money knowing what the product was at that moment. But, if at any point AoS was taking more than it was providing the only healthy thing to do is to move on. It might not be easy and you may have to organize your life differently. If people can stop smoking and drinking, then if, AoS and GW are causing you pain you can leave it behind. But, like stopping those activities you'll find you'll need to adjust your social life as well, its just the reality.

Alternatively you can find a way to enjoy AoS and your interactions with GW for what they are, and not what they are not or what it could be. The hobby for me personally is my friends, the game, and then building and painting. GW really can only impact one of those things with their corporate behaviour. The game seems to be in a pretty decent place statistically with a wider range of top end armies, and a smaller range of trash. The content is interesting and full of character, the release schedule is demanding but I am in control of how much I buy. I'm an extremely competitive gamer, who games almost exclusively at tournaments I have a few armies that I can rotate through as my whims and meta demand and I can add to them if I feel the desire. 

You need to ask yourself some serious questions before you consider what you should do or be doing. Why do you have 15k points? Why those factions? Would you spend more on those armies? Why would you spend more, if you wouldn't today? etc etc. I spontaneously purchased a IJ army that I don't really have any specific plans for, besides an image of the finished models. But, they are pretty low priority and I'm ok with them cooling their heels. But, in a different situation I probably couldn't afford them economically so I shouldn't have purchased them, regardless of how good the army is, my desire or the marketing. You're a consumer, which means you need to make your own decisions and own those decisions, and it seems to me from the trend in this thread that the people who are doing that seem to generally be happier about the hobby. 

[Sleboda]

7 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

Tbh: If the miniatures of Mantic were more appealing and less blocky I‘d gladly skip GW‘s for good. They appear to be a hobbyist company and not a greedy corpo like GW.

Ronny is a GW vet. I guarantee that as soon as he can grab a pile of cash, he will. Not a criticism. Just reality. 

 

Nobody. I mean nobody. Nobody works for the good of the people when they can get freaking rich instead.

 

People are inherently selfish, greedy, and evil. All that gives them the appearance of altruism is a lack of opportunity to ****** others to benefit themselves. It's human nature.

 

 

 

[Sleboda]

7 hours ago, stratigo said:

Using an information advantage in an attempt (even one that backfires) to get people to make purchases they would not if they had the information being withheld is a violation of business ethics.

Lol.

Are you the arbiter of what "business ethics" should be?

 

He was right. Buy it or don't. It's not food, clothing, or shelter.

 

People really need to get off their high horses when it comes to freaking toy soldiers.

[Overread]

And I think its time to have a bit of a pause. It's one thing to have a bit of chat about release  rates, but we are drifting from healthy discussion into a bit too much venting. 

 

In the end I think whispersofblood sums it up very well. If you find you're not having fun stop. Put things on pause and try something else. Often as not the fun will return on its own. Too many push and push to try and stick at a hobby when they've mentally moved on and it only ever results in them lashing out at the company, other gamers, their own endeavours etc... We all have our complaints, no company or game or hobby will ever be "perfect" in all regards, but lets not let those complaints dominate us and that end up rising them up out of all proportion.