Do you feel cheated?

[Mattrulesok]

2 hours ago, Sleboda said:

Yep. You're right. You're going to be criticized, and rightly so.

 

Let me boil down your utterly selfish view:

 

I want a product. I actually find value in it and wish to own it. But I'm not going to pay the legal owners of that product in order to obtain it. Instead, because I have no problem using greed, selfishness, and arrogance ("i think im paying for the rules when i buy the miniatures") to justify it, I'll just support lawlessness and take what I want for free.

In other words, "I think I'm paying for the gasoline, oil changes, and highway tolls when I buy a car, and even though that's not true under the law or in this troublesome thing we can reality, I'm going to act as if what I believe to be true entitles me to ignore reality and just take the things I want without paying."

That about right?

I mean that analogy doesn't work at all does it? The concept of purchasing a game and expecting the rules to come with it is very different to purchasing a car and expecting other services and  other resources to be included, no one expects to get the paint with their models do they? 

I'd say a better analogy is, imagine you went to the store and bought  a box set of Monopoly, you take it home and open it up. There's dice, a board, cards etc. and a single page of basic rules. To get the full rules you need to buy another book, there have also been changes made to balance the game and make it fairer which are in another book. Now who's at fault here? I'm sure different people on this forum will have different opinions, should you buy a game and expect everything to come as one, especially when they haven't for a long time? Probably not but should a game, especially one as expensive as warhammer pay wall it's own rules, probably not. 

Now wether AoS is a game system designed to facilitate the sale of models or the models are designed to serve the game is debatable (and probably a little of both) but it's hard to defend the current costing of the rules in this game when  a players may need to purchase 5-6 books (approx $250 aud) to play their army which already cost anywhere from $450 to $1200 for 2k points when those books can be invalidated in 6 months. 

Edited January 26, 2021 by Mattrulesok

[LuminethMage]

14 hours ago, Clan's Cynic said:

I think it was clearly a very cynical plan on GW's part. The Lumineth book was presumably at the printers long before Covid was a thing and we know model design, from their own mouth, is a long process that takes years. I find it very difficult to believe they just had the ink wet and then decided, "hey what if we just make a new Lumineth wave?" The extremely high prices and marketing campaign behind the Lumineth also suggests they knew they'd sell extremely well (High Elves were the most popular WHFB army next to Warriors of Chaos and elf-fans have not been quiet about wanting an AoS equivalent). 

GW absolutely weighed up whether to cut out half of the range and sell it down the line as part of another book. Presumably a second Lumineth book won't be far out afterwards and the defenders will say, "but that new Battletome had to happen so the new units could be compiled in one book!" Even the most popular armies usually wait years between release waves, the only real exception being Space Marines by virtue of being Space Marines and Stormcast up until 2.0's launch (which was obviously done because GW had hoped to make them as popular as their 40k cousins).

I do get the impression DoK was meant to come out later however, as the duel-release with Slaanesh seems a bit uncharacteristic (at least when it's alongside a major new release like the Slaanesh mortals) but it was still probably less than a year out. I think most people expected Morathi to be a 'stopgap' between now and 3.0's Battletome and bought it with that assumption in mind. Within a year? Yeah maybe, but less than half of one? I'd have been very interested to see how many DoK players would've bought Morathi if they knew the new Battletome was coming out in four/five months. And before somebody says, "But what about the LORE?" Well, how many Ossiarch players bought Wrath of the Everchosen when it was confirmed they'd not get any new rules in it?

With games like Flames of War having stop-gap books and then replacement books pretty close together isn't too bad because they 'only' cost around £10 (and hardback at that), but £25 for something you get a few months out of is not pocket change to most people, no matter how many middle-aged guys working in IT claim otherwise.

 

 

To split the Lumineth release in half was definitely their plan from the start. The battletome is written like, in all their preview shows the mentioned that this is just the start, and they even wrote "These releases complete the initial Lumineth Realm-lords range" at the end of the article for the second wave of them. Most of the people interested in the Lumineth thought that we'll see more models relatively soon (although hardly anyone thought it that the second wave is this large). Some people even hold back to wait until they see more. I think you are right, this had nothing to do with Covid. 

The actual release schedule though, and how far LRL 1 and LRL 2 have been apart, has been almost certainly affected by Covid (could have been shorter or longer). As well as the perception of splitting the release, because many people haven't been able to play much with their Lumineth. 

The price of the Lumineth isn't "extremely" high. You might say that for the Stoneguard, but you can buy a 2,000 LRL list which doesn't cost much more than similar expensive lines. The only difference is that we still do not have a starter box. I'm not sure what you mean with the marking, but it wasn't especially good, besides some interesting WarCom articles. All the vids they showed were either cheaply produced jokes, or the normal "look! models!" vids. If you compare that to what they did for OBR or Gitz it was pretty bad. The first really good marketing vid we got for the Lumineth was the BR Teclis animation. The Lumineth almost got forgotten a few months after the initial previews which likely had to do with Covid. But they didn't do anything outstanding for them. 

Now to the cynical part: You really want to make the argument that the Lumineth have been an easy, cynical way to re-make the old High Elves? If you look how popular the new vampires models are, if all they cared about was easy money, they just could have "cynically" re-done most of the old HE designs and call it a day. Instead they put in a real effort to build a completely new line. That probably would have done more in terms of maximizing profits against effort than any release schedule shenanigans.

And more importantly, as you can see here, a large part of the Lumineth players are happy with what they have done. There is nothing cynical about a company trying to sell as much as possible of their product while satisfying a large part of their customers base. That's what they are supposed to do. There is no magical golden way to make everyone happy. Tastes differ, and I can understand that some people don't like what they did, but you do not have to put some nefarious motive behind everything. They likely found out that they can sell more models and books by splitting releases into smaller parts, while most of the people either have no problems with it or actually prefer it that way. 

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

While I feel it's a bit off topic to steer into the debate of affordability and piracy I'll toss my two cents in anyways. 

As a games company GW isn't the best to my experience. While that experience only goes as far as a handful of different wargames across 5-6 years it's still worth mentioning how the quality of the game has affected my experience in wargaming as a broke high schooler/college student to gainfully employed and now unemployed. As a models company GW is the best I've had the pleasure to buy from, with Corvus Belli as a close second mainly losing out to their products being pewter. GW in the past 3 years has made some wicked sculpts and really started living up to the title of top dog in wargaming at least as far as models go. But as a games company both 40k and AoS are strictly inferior IMO to Corvus Belli's Infinity and Aristeia games. Warcry and bloodbowl however are super solid, but I can't speak to the quality of underworlds or necromunda as I never got into them. I can get into the specifics of why I think Infinity is a better game but for the sake of this argument I'll keep it to a few points: affordability, interactivity and quality of life. As personal examples a single infinity army (averaging 10-15 models since it's a skirmish game) with dice and simple terrain, literally all i needed to play, costed me about $100 in canadian monopoly money, for the same cost I got a single book and the new shadowsun model for my tau. I currently own 2 armies for each of the major games I play thanks to a decent market for used minis locally for GW games (Tau at about 70% second hand, chaos marines at 90%, hedonites at 70% and OBR entirely new) although my tau will probably be sold as I'm not playing 40k as often as I used to and it would allow me to buy the new slaanesh release without affecting my monthly budgeting. 

Tangent about my collection aside, Infinity is a game that has very interactive turns where both players get a chance to react to their opponents actions, but most importantly all the rules are free online including a list building tool that allows you to tap any rules a unit may have and be taken taken straight to a reference for that rule. So any new release just gets added to the list builder, sometimes months in advance of the kit releasing, with references for all their stats and rules easily accessible. It sets a precedent for quality of life that more games should meet and shows the consumer unfriendly flaws of GW's rules release strategy. So I don't hold it against people who forgo buying books, I was guilty of it myself because I didn't have a car while I was in college and wanted to minimize what I carried to the hobby shop, so any book that wasn't my codex/battletome I just took pictures of on my phone, including new rules releases because like others have said before I would rather put that money towards plastic than paper. Lore and other goodies is cool and all, but what you can't fit in a battletome is better off expanded into a novel and rules should just be added to a digital rulesbase, making it easier to get rules makes it easier to get new people into games. It's how I got into infinity because I didn't have to worry about buying and combing over a rule book, i just got the basics from a friend and used the app to read up on specifics as they came up.

As many have said books aren't GW's cash cow and don't make that much of their profits, so if piracy opens the door for people to invest more money into the bread and butter that is the miniatures then I'm personally for it. A significant dip in book sales might just be the kick in the shins GW needs to modernize the way they provide the rules and systems that they themselves admit are a mutable feature of their actual product: the miniatures.

This brings us to the second issue I see pop up alot around these convos: "If you can't afford the hobby then it just isn't for you!". Frankly it's true, scummy and makes you sound like an ******, but true. GW can price their product however they please and if it prices people out then it becomes harder to legitimately participate. People can still buy used minis and books, but that at best only supports flgs's (support your local stores btw, best communities I've been apart of have all been from flgs) and doesn't produce another sale for GW unless the second hand buy-in gets you over the hurdle enough to but future product as it becomes relevant to you. There are cheaper games out there, but not everyone is going to have a local community for said cheaper games like I was lucky enough to stumble into. GW games are just so monolithic that they can push their product anywhere and find customers because they are the first thing that comes to mind when people think of miniatures games. Even higher profile games like infinity and Malifaux are obscure by comparison, hell legion only gets recognition outside of wargaming circles because of star wars as an IP. My personal belief is that if GW wants to hit mainstream appeal and not just be the game of nerds of the good old days, college kids and mid 40s men in need of a new hobby, then they should focus on finding a price point low enough to appeal to average people and not just those who acquaint themselves with the IP through other media and commit to the game or folks with the disposable income to buy a full army because a coworker or drinking buddy thought it would be a great escape from the wives on thursday nights. 

Anyways as for the main topic of feeling cheated, I'm not a lumineth player but I'm loving the wind temple stuff, I fail to see how people can feel cheated by it other than the folks who are upset it isn't a lion or phoenix like the old days (which for the record, if they did the same style but with the classic animals it'd still be cool but it's refreshing to see them branch into stuff you wouldn't expect instead. ). the warscrolls will be on the app anyways, but will probably be in BR:Teclis instead of a new battletome with a nation of wind and wind temple battalion. I hope they continue to experiment and add new flavour to their factions, Grimnir knows Fyreslayers could use something to break up the monotony. As a slaanesh player I was playing long before the first book dropped, now we have a book and it's poorly designed to force a specific playstyle that caused a lot of grief. I'm happy to be getting long overdue mortals, but like I mentioned earlier instead of a whole new book it should have been a digital update of a rules database. I don't so much feel cheated as having a shadow of disappointment following glowing radiance of sigvald and co. Like I mentioned with lumineth, I'm glad they're experimenting instead of going with what's tried and true. Gluttony is a great addition to the visual representation along better representing the alchemy, drugs, pursuit of perfection and pain obsessions that while there to a degree, where very visually drowned out by sexual imagery and mild body horror.

[stratigo]

1 hour ago, PJetski said:

Piracy is wrong.

Selling poorly edited books that require erratas is wrong.

Selling products knowing that they will be invalidated within a year is wrong.

The solution is to stop using the products and demand better. As long as people keep buying these books then they have no incentive to improve their products. Vote with your wallet. 

Piracy is not an axiomatic wrong unless your world view is limited in a very distressing way.

 

1 hour ago, Sleboda said:

I gotta give @Doko  serious credit. I strongly commented negatively on his (her?) view, and it would have been natural for him to get defensive, but he didn't. He even admitted it's wrong. While I still think it's not right to use personal *opinion* and personal circumstances to justify piracy, at least he gets that it's wrong.  Good on you, Doko.

That said, the price of piracy to the company being stolen from is of no importance whatsoever. When a guy in a garage makes a product or a large manufacturer makes a product, they are protected equally from others simply stealing their work. They created it. They own it. They and they alone set the terms for transferring ownership. No opinion or circumstance changes that. We can, and must (imo), stand up for all equally. Piracy is bad. It's illegal. It's selfish.

 

I'll move on and get back to my game of Blood Bowl. I'm happy to debate further in DMs.

 

 

So perfectly moral under the greed is good ethical framework modern business operates on right?

Edited January 26, 2021 by stratigo

[zilberfrid]

6 minutes ago, stratigo said:

Piracy is not an axiomatic wrong unless your world view is limited in a very distressing way.

*Picks up tricorne, eye patch and starts building a galleon* " Now where were those cannons. Oh, right. All in Legends".

[Gaz Taylor]

+++ Mod Hat On +++
Just a reminder to everybody - we don’t like piracy on TGA, so please don’t discuss it. I understand some of you are feeling passionate at the moment about this topic (along with similar themes), but that’s no excuse to ignore TGA rules. 
 

Points and bans will be issued now if this continues. You have been warned

PS - note you can say you don’t like stuff that GW does, just be constructive about it.

[Beastmaster]

People complaining that their faction doesn’t get updated with new models and rules fast enough. And now people complaining that they get updated too fast. Not easy to please Warhammer fans. 😄

Seriously, I‘m quite sure it wasn’t planned that way. But, Corona.

[Siegfried VII]

Presonally I don't feel cheated. I own both Lumineth and Daughters.

Regarding Lumineth yes I was dissapointed with the delay of their release and I would prefer more models in the initial release but I am excited we get new  shiny models and I would have bought the Broken Realms to follow the story regardless so it's all good in the end..

Regarding Daughters the last battletome was in 2018, so getting a new one now is only natural, so I'm good with it. Anyways the broken realms book left many things that needed refresh in terms of rules..

[nuttyknatty]

Cheated?

Wow. People need to get some perspective. 
 

 

[Eulailah]

21 minutes ago, Beastmaster said:

Seriously, I‘m quite sure it wasn’t planned that way. But, Corona.

I never understood why people use the coronavirus to defend GW.

Granted, they couldn't know what would happen in 2020, but we have had, what, 5 releases since LML wave 1 and 2? By my count we've had Sons of Behemat, Warcry Catacombs (if that counts), Slaanesh, BR: Morathi, anything else? The way I see it, coronavirus actually made GW appear less ******, as it spaced their 2 waves of LML more. Without the virus we could have ended up with LML wave 1 in April and LML wave 2 in November/January.

Moreover, given the prices of the LML, the fact that now we'll need 2 books to play the army, and the fact they did know of wave 2 when they released wave 1, and could have added the warscrolls in the battletome, I think it's pretty clear this is a greedy move on GW's part.

I, for one, will vote with my wallet.

[stratigo]

11 minutes ago, The Nameless One said:

Cheated?

Wow. People need to get some perspective. 
 

 

Yeah, you already got cheated buying into the hobby in the first place guys

[Beastmaster]

47 minutes ago, Eulailah said:

I never understood why people use the coronavirus to defend GW.

Granted, they couldn't know what would happen in 2020, but we have had, what, 5 releases since LML wave 1 and 2? By my count we've had Sons of Behemat, Warcry Catacombs (if that counts), Slaanesh, BR: Morathi, anything else? The way I see it, coronavirus actually made GW appear less ******, as it spaced their 2 waves of LML more. Without the virus we could have ended up with LML wave 1 in April and LML wave 2 in November/January.

Moreover, given the prices of the LML, the fact that now we'll need 2 books to play the army, and the fact they did know of wave 2 when they released wave 1, and could have added the warscrolls in the battletome, I think it's pretty clear this is a greedy move on GW's part.

I, for one, will vote with my wallet.

I don’t defend anyone, I just try to understand the attack. Corona rattled the whole gaming and tournament scene, and conceivably changed the focus of many hobbyists during the last months. There‘s also a lot of possible logistic, production and distribution problems that could play in. GW, as any company, has to take all that into account and constantly readjust its course to continue prospering (can’t blame them for that I think. They, as we, didn’t invent capitalism).

Maybe the initial Lumineth release was planned a lot earlier, but was pushed back. Maybe the second release was planned for a later date. Who knows. But I surely don’t see cheating.

Edited January 26, 2021 by Beastmaster

[Eulailah]

8 minutes ago, Beastmaster said:

I don’t defend anyone, I just try to understand the attack. Corona rattled the whole gaming and tournament scene, and conceivably changed the focus of many hobbyists during the last months. There‘s also a lot of possible logistic, production and distribution problems that could play in. GW, as any company, has to take all that into account and constantly readjust its course to continue prospering (can’t blame them for that I think. They, as we, didn’t invent capitalism).

I see. I do agree that we don't know whether there has been a change in pace (or in order) of releases, but I'll say that GW, with respect to LML, doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt. Everything points to them being greedy in an already expensive hobby. Moreover, even though the focus of many hobbyists may have changed the last 10 months or so, that doesn't mean their complaints aren't valid. They may be more vocal about them, of course, but the complaints are still, in my opinion, valid.

Anyhow, I'm glad some of you find this to not be cheatin, as this takes us to interesting conversations

[Sunshine]

It really does feel Iike pre-loaded DLC on a new video game. Unfortunately consumers in that industry lap it up which has now meant it is common practice. 

Did I feel cheated about it with video games? Yes at first then no. Yes because I was used to buying complete games and saw the idea as capitalist greed. Then no because as a consumer it is my choice to get it or not. I now just wait a year or 2 until the gold edition of a game has been released and then get it. By this time it is often also possible to get the full game for less than half the price of the original. There are exceptions and if I really want a game I will buy it straight away but I then will never play the DLC as I refuse to purchase it. For example I will be buying Gran Turismo 7 as soon as that comes out. 

With regards to Games Workshop releasing half of the Lumineth with one battle tome knowing that they will be releasing the other half a year later with a new tome, do I feel cheated? No, because I don't collect them. Would I if I did collect them? No. Would I if this becomes the new norm? No, because just like with video games I will wait until the full range is out to purchase the latest tome so I do not end up purchasing a tome for the same faction twice in as many years.

Games Workshop has already set the precedent of yearly updates through the General's Handbook though which has been accepted by their customers and their actions with the Lumineth update is in line with this. 

Do I feel cheated by Games Workshops other actions? Yes. I do not agree with Games Workshop having models available for sale, ending production of them and then removing support of those models. I understood why they did this from the switch from Fantasy to Age of Sigmar but it's a massive kick in the teeth to customers who bought something and then a few months later their models become unviable.

Do I agree with their release schedule. No. Whilst I think their current release rate is fine, I find it abhorrent that Games Workshop is starting to make some of the same mistakes it did with its Fantasy range. Lumineth should not be getting a second wave so soon when some ranges haven't had an update since they first came about at the beginning of Age of Sigmar (Sylvaneth, Fyreslayers etc.). Some of the older factions just do not have any variety and are in need of fleshing out.

Do I agree with Games Workshop spreading rules across multiple books? No. All rules required should be available from one source and it does annoy me that you will need multiple books to play.

Edited January 26, 2021 by Sunshine

[LuminethMage]

43 minutes ago, Eulailah said:

I see. I do agree that we don't know whether there has been a change in pace (or in order) of releases, but I'll say that GW, with respect to LML, doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt. Everything points to them being greedy in an already expensive hobby. Moreover, even though the focus of many hobbyists may have changed the last 10 months or so, that doesn't mean their complaints aren't valid. They may be more vocal about them, of course, but the complaints are still, in my opinion, valid.

Anyhow, I'm glad some of you find this to not be cheatin, as this takes us to interesting conversations

What’s the actual complaint about being greedy specifically because of the split release? That you “have” to buy BR Teclis? Wouldn’t you have bought it anyway? If it’s anything like BR Morathi, it’ll be interesting to read alone for the story, even if you don’t collect any of the models. I bought BR Morathi and I don’t collect any of them. 

If you wouldn’t have bought it, is the money you have to spend for that really such a problem concerning what you spend for the hobby as such? 

[NorthernNurgling]

Don't you think that if GW had the whole "2-wave release" mapped out they could have made it more explicit to give people a choice in how they approached the new faction? And don't you think the initial release could have had a more representative mix of model styles? 

[Melcavuk]

You get what you pay for, every book states the number of warscrolls contained within it and has no guarantee of longevity. If you want more scrolls or newer rules then buy the new one, but at no point does that change the fact you made a concious decision to purchase a product that was provided exactly as advertised at the point of purchase. Nobody takes your old book away, the warscrolls are free online legally from the provider, if you dont like the new book dont buy it.

[PrimeElectrid]

35 minutes ago, NorthernNurgling said:

Don't you think that if GW had the whole "2-wave release" mapped out they could have made it more explicit to give people a choice in how they approached the new faction? And don't you think the initial release could have had a more representative mix of model styles? 

Of course it was mapped out. Production and development cycles don’t spring into life overnight. GW knew this at least 2 years ago when they finalised the (then) Spring 2020 LRL release.

The release was also pretty explicit that there was more to come. It was announced up front that Teclis was leading the vanguard while Tyrion hadn’t taken to the field. The LRL background talked about other Temples (and Nations) that didn’t have rules or models. Then there are plenty of rules that favour models that didn’t exist (specifically combat heroes).

The only surprise here is the timeframe (RIP SCE chambers teased three (four?) years ago)

[NorthernNurgling]

4 minutes ago, PrimeElectrid said:

Of course it was mapped out. Production and development cycles don’t spring into life overnight. GW knew this at least 2 years ago when they finalised the (then) Spring 2020 LRL release.

The release was also pretty explicit that there was more to come. It was announced up front that Teclis was leading the vanguard while Tyrion hadn’t taken to the field. The LRL background talked about other Temples (and Nations) that didn’t have rules or models. Then there are plenty of rules that favour models that didn’t exist (specifically combat heroes).

The only surprise here is the timeframe (RIP SCE chambers teased three (four?) years ago)

I would argue that the only surprise here is the fact that the High Elves have joined forces with pokemon. When they said more to come I thought of dragon princes, bolt throwers, dare I say the re-release of the skycutter... I think the initial release should have clearly stated that the Hyshian spirits would be non-aelfs. Even if the first battletome had artwork in it that could signpost the direction the range would take... Before anyone says Swordmasters, I know, they are coming too. But when I collect a faction, I want to be happy with 90% of the range.

My point is, anyone wanting to pick up some nostalgic High Elves could not have expected the faction to expand in this way. Personally I hoped the Mountain Spirit was a bizarre one-off... If you love the new models, fine. They are certainly well-made and I don't have an issue with their price, or their release schedule. I just think the initial release was misleading. It's just like... my opinion, man...

[Eulailah]

1 hour ago, LuminethMage said:

Wouldn’t you have bought it anyway?

Personally no, I wouldn't, but that's beyond the point. The actual complaint is about how they unambiguosly knew that LML wave 2 was less than 1 year later, and still released the battletome of wave 1 as if it was a finished product, when it isn't. Some people say that it was clear LML was a partial release, and that might be true for the people that pay close attention to these things, to some other people it might not.

In my opinion, the timing of the release indicates they wanted people to buy 2000 points of LML wave 1, and then release wave 2 so that people buy more. It's the exact same as when a videogame company releases a DLC right after the game releases. People will always get angry if the DLC turns out to be an essential part of the product they just bought. Note the timings in the analogy don't quite match, as DLCs are produced in a much faster manner.

For me, personally, this reminds me of when I bought the first Seraphon battletome, somewhere in 2018, and the rules in the battletome were, quite simply, not valid anymore. Turned out I had to buy GHB2018 and the rule book in order to be able to play the game I just bought.

[PrimeElectrid]

4 minutes ago, NorthernNurgling said:

I would argue that the only surprise here is the fact that the High Elves have joined forces with pokemon. When they said more to come I thought of dragon princes, bolt throwers, dare I say the re-release of the skycutter... I think the initial release should have clearly stated that the Hyshian spirits would be non-aelfs. Even if the first battletome had artwork in it that could signpost the direction the range would take... Before anyone says Swordmasters, I know, they are coming too. But when I collect a faction, I want to be happy with 90% of the range.

My point is, anyone wanting to pick up some nostalgic High Elves could not have expected the faction to expand in this way. Personally I hoped the Mountain Spirit was a bizarre one-off... If you love the new models, fine. They are certainly well-made and I don't have an issue with their price, or their release schedule. I just think the initial release was misleading. It's just like... my opinion, man...

The relationship with Hysh spirits is quite clearly stated throughout the LRL background

[LuminethMage]

18 minutes ago, Eulailah said:

Personally no, I wouldn't, but that's beyond the point. The actual complaint is about how they unambiguosly knew that LML wave 2 was less than 1 year later, and still released the battletome of wave 1 as if it was a finished product, when it isn't. Some people say that it was clear LML was a partial release, and that might be true for the people that pay close attention to these things, to some other people it might not.

In my opinion, the timing of the release indicates they wanted people to buy 2000 points of LML wave 1, and then release wave 2 so that people buy more. It's the exact same as when a videogame company releases a DLC right after the game releases. People will always get angry if the DLC turns out to be an essential part of the product they just bought. Note the timings in the analogy don't quite match, as DLCs are produced in a much faster manner.

For me, personally, this reminds me of when I bought the first Seraphon battletome, somewhere in 2018, and the rules in the battletome were, quite simply, not valid anymore. Turned out I had to buy GHB2018 and the rule book in order to be able to play the game I just bought.

Yes, they knew. I agree with that, at least that there was a second wave coming relatively soon, exact timing could have been influenced by Covid. 

Why wasn’t it a finished product? You can play just fine with the current Lumineth. The Battletome had a lore section, art and everything else that another Battletome has. Some parts were competitively good (all for faction useable, all units being good), some not so like the artifacts. But that’s exactly the same for any other Battletome. 

Of course they want you to buy more. That’s not connected to how the release is done. 9 month later isn’t really “directly after”as you say yourself, and you can always decline to buy more. If you like the models, you’ll buy them anyway. The only difference is, if you are really into the Lumineth, they’ll be easier to afford if you have a bit of time in between releases. And if you collect all kind of armies the whole point is moot anyway. And there are other things that will make you buy more, like shifting metas, wanting to paint more etc. I think it’s too simplistic to say, oh if they just would release everything together than it’s better in that respect - how come all the stories about piles of grey? 

Which rules in the Lumineth Battletome aren’t valid anymore? 

[NorthernNurgling]

51 minutes ago, PrimeElectrid said:

The relationship with Hysh spirits is quite clearly stated throughout the LRL background

You are choosing to not understand me so I’m not going to continue on this thread

[PrimeElectrid]

Just now, NorthernNurgling said:

You are choosing to not understand me so I’m not going to continue on this thread

There’s no misunderstanding. You quite clearly state you hoped that the Mountain Spirit was a one off, when all the LrL background tells you otherwise 🤷‍♂️ 

[Sleboda]

6 hours ago, Mattrulesok said:

I mean that analogy doesn't work at all does it?

My point was that he was making up an issue. The idea that buying a car means you should automatically get free gas is just as nonsensical as saying that buying a model automatically means you are entitled to rules.

Or, to put it another way, you don't get to decide that you get to have more stuff than you bought just because you want the extra stuff or feel somehow entitled.

GW makes no secret. They don't trick you. You know that when you buy a kit, you get the kit, not all the possible rules for all related kits, or indeed even the full rules for that kit.

Edited January 26, 2021 by Sleboda