Do you feel cheated?

[l1censetochill]

6 minutes ago, NorthernNurgling said:

I wanted to add my two cents because I'm interested if other people have fallen into the same trap as me regarding the Lumineth.

 

I saw the Vanari and loved the fact that they seemed more traditional and less weird than things like the Deepkin etc. The cavalry were on horses, the archers and spearmen all looked lovely. I planned on getting the first army box, and did. 

Then I saw the Alarith, and did not like it at all. That's fine though - I converted my Stoneguard by kit-bashing Wildwood Rangers to give them a warrior-monk vibe, and I passed on the battle-cattle. I still had a respectable 2k points of Vanari with Teclis and Eltharion, fingers crossed for swordmasters, heavy cavalry, artillery etc...

Then I see the kangaroo archers, and the squirrel last week. It was the straw that broke the camel's back (or whatever that thing the Regent Lord is riding).  I am quite literally painting the last 2 of my dawnriders this week and putting the whole army on ebay as soon as they are finished. This faction has destroyed me - I'm primarily a painter, and I love the level of detail and design that GW's newest ranges provide, but this is the last time I take a leap of faith and buy a partially released faction. 

So is it just me, or did anyone else jump into Lumineth thinking "Oooo, elves!" only to be bombarded into submission by this unlikely menagerie of Hyshian pokemon?

 

 

P.S. I'm rerolling Nurgle.... Sign of the times.

You... uh... you did notice that among the models revealed in the teaser, they included Blademasters, foot heroes, and a new artillery piece, right? Because I can't help but feel like this is a bit of an overreaction.

Anyway, as someone who bought into Lumineth on release, no, I don't feel cheated. The initial model range was small, but I liked it. The new models look even better, and I'm excited to paint them. And as for needing a second book... meh. I'll buy it for convenience, but all that stuff will be online within days of the release anyway. If you want, you can just watch one of the 100 YouTube 'Man Reads Book' videos and copy down the relevant stuff into an Excel document until the app and the Warscroll Builder get updated. I figure it's no better or worse than needing to buy a new GHB every year.

After reading through this thread, though (and seeing that the Lumineth players, at least, seem mostly excited for the update), I've gotta wonder - how much of the negative response is being driven by people who actually feel "cheated" by this release, and how much is just people claiming they're upset about GW's release schedule, but are actually just really salty that Lumineth got a second wave of models and their Fyreslayers/Cities/whatever didn't? Because I can't shake the feeling that a lot of the online complaining is motivated by sour grapes, not "ethics in tabletop wargaming" or whatever.

[Lord Krungharr]

I don't think anyone feels as cheated as people who bought a Legion of Azgorh army from Forgeworld in the last year 😛

But I do think it's a bit skeezy of GW to pump this many rules releases out like that.  New models is awesome though, the tome is a loss of like $40, so not a world-breaker there but the campaign style extra rules I find irritating (which is why I never ever buy them). 

 

[Kramer]

9 hours ago, HollowHills said:

Specifically interested to hear from DoK and Lumineth players.

BR Morathi came out only a couple of months ago and now we are getting a DoK battletome which will presumably contain all the rules.

Lumineth only officially released in September but are now seeing the range doubled with none of those units being represented in the battletome. 

Given that many of us haven't been able to play in person for almost a year, coupled with continued price increases this seems a bit scummy to me.

No not really. Dok book could easily be 2 more months away, so I’m happy to play with a change of rules until that time.

the alternative is that GW knew threes changes were coming and excluded them from the Morathi book. 
That would have been worse from my perspective. 
 

but in general the release rate is so high in losing connection with it but that’s a general issue and not specifically linked to DoK, Morathi or the pointy elves  

 

 

[NinthMusketeer]

I can see Lumineth players being justified in feeling cheated, for reasons others have already covered.

For DoK, eh... There was never a need to get the campaign book for the new warscroll so it was simply a matter of wanting the different sub-faction and the battalion. Really I would guess that BK:Morathi is more about the fluff for DoK players than anything. I certainly enjoyed reading it.

I would also note that BK:Morathi has a bunch of other content for other armies and has the Har Kuron allegiance abilities which will not be in the new DoK battletome. Which itself is coming out in... March? Which means it'll have been 4-5 months between the two, not a long time but not insignificant either.

Edited January 25, 2021 by NinthMusketeer

[Kramer]

Can I also just say. 
 

wr don’t know about the ‘invalidating’ part regarding lumineth. 

there is still a chance it’s a combination book. Or even a separate battletome with some 1 in 4 ally rules or whatever  

Now if that would be better is up to how it could be executed but it’s the first time they are so fast behind it, so there might still be a different strategy at play. 
 

Edited January 25, 2021 by Kramer

[GrimDork]

I have mixed feelings on this. I wouldn’t go as far as saying I feel cheated, slightly irked maybe.

On the one hand I’m really happy with Lumineth getting more models, I love what’s been revealed and can’t wait to see the rest.

The thing that bugs me, is having picked up the battle box, the beautiful  ltd Ed battletome now feels somehow incomplete. Feels like a strange choice for players to have to buy 2 books to use an army that will have all been released with the space of a single year.

I will definitely be getting BR:Teclis anyway as I loved Morathi. I just hope they don’t do an updated Lumineth battletome too soon.

[NorthernNurgling]

1 hour ago, l1censetochill said:

You... uh... you did notice that among the models revealed in the teaser, they included Blademasters, foot heroes, and a new artillery piece, right? Because I can't help but feel like this is a bit of an overreaction.

Anyway, as someone who bought into Lumineth on release, no, I don't feel cheated. The initial model range was small, but I liked it. The new models look even better, and I'm excited to paint them. And as for needing a second book... meh. I'll buy it for convenience, but all that stuff will be online within days of the release anyway. If you want, you can just watch one of the 100 YouTube 'Man Reads Book' videos and copy down the relevant stuff into an Excel document until the app and the Warscroll Builder get updated. I figure it's no better or worse than needing to buy a new GHB every year.

After reading through this thread, though (and seeing that the Lumineth players, at least, seem mostly excited for the update), I've gotta wonder - how much of the negative response is being driven by people who actually feel "cheated" by this release, and how much is just people claiming they're upset about GW's release schedule, but are actually just really salty that Lumineth got a second wave of models and their Fyreslayers/Cities/whatever didn't? Because I can't shake the feeling that a lot of the online complaining is motivated by sour grapes, not "ethics in tabletop wargaming" or whatever.

I'm not being hysterical about it, I just mean that the faction is not at all what I thought it was going to be. Now on the one hand I could be content with the few kits in the army that actually appeal to me, but over time I think it will just get more annoying as the other temples come out. I want my horse-archers to... uh... be on horses. I could just about swallow buying a Mountain Spirit, but then Fantastic Mr Fox has been released and I just feel a bit disappointed... I'd love it if the spirits were half-elf avatars, like the old Orion model.

I'm just dropping the faction now before River Temple comes out and I have to buy the mystical Platypus or Zenith comes out and Tyrion rides in on the mighty Albatross. I honestly wondered if other people had the same experience. I've still got a functional 2k Vanari army, at least until I build up another force to replace it.

[Kramer]

32 minutes ago, NorthernNurgling said:

I'm not being hysterical about it, I just mean that the faction is not at all what I thought it was going to be. Now on the one hand I could be content with the few kits in the army that actually appeal to me, but over time I think it will just get more annoying as the other temples come out. I want my horse-archers to... uh... be on horses. I could just about swallow buying a Mountain Spirit, but then Fantastic Mr Fox has been released and I just feel a bit disappointed... I'd love it if the spirits were half-elf avatars, like the old Orion model.

I'm just dropping the faction now before River Temple comes out and I have to buy the mystical Platypus or Zenith comes out and Tyrion rides in on the mighty Albatross. I honestly wondered if other people had the same experience. I've still got a functional 2k Vanari army, at least until I build up another force to replace it.

And that sucks. I truly get that. Because those units, eben if you don’t field them, they are part of the lore, the army picture etc. So it does influence how you perceive your own army. And as a result how you experience it. 

but bringing it back to the discussion is it about the release strategy? Or is it simply a matter of taste? 

so if they showed/released those horse archers, sword infantry etc. Then you could ignore that one foxy wind avatar, if that’s where it stopped. If that was what they where releasing would you then be okay with it? 

[Deepkin]

I feel cheated that the Vampire warband doesn't come out til May

I want to inject it right into my veins right now, damn it all.

[DemonEyesJason]

I don't.  Starting with the Lumineth, I felt once they showed the original line up of models, I didn't feel I needed it bad enough until the army was more expanded as I felt they launched with just too little.  Having only one of the temples to start just made me felt the line was very limited.  So I only ended up buying that LE set and haven't touched it since.  I'm actually glad that they are already going to have more added to the line since I felt there wasn't enough with the first wave so I will be more likely to start the faction like I originally intended.

For DoK, I don't feel cheated either since I was more surprised they are even getting a 2.0 battletome since it was seeming that their first one was going to be used for 2.0 all the way until the next edition.  I'd rather sort of wait, but I kind of want the things that other factions got this edition like the endless spells and their faction specific artifacts and the like.  I was already working on them after the Lumineth launch disappointment as I decided to buckle down and get them finished.

[NorthernNurgling]

14 minutes ago, Kramer said:

And that sucks. I truly get that. Because those units, eben if you don’t field them, they are part of the lore, the army picture etc. So it does influence how you perceive your own army. And as a result how you experience it. 

but bringing it back to the discussion is it about the release strategy? Or is it simply a matter of taste? 

so if they showed/released those horse archers, sword infantry etc. Then you could ignore that one foxy wind avatar, if that’s where it stopped. If that was what they where releasing would you then be okay with it? 

I feel like GW were a little sneaky with the release, though I know it may just be seen as bitterness by some of the dedicated Lumineth fans on here.

For me personally, I think the initial release was skewed too heavily towards the "normal" elf units. If I had known the range would include these weird and wonderful beasts I simply would not have picked it up.  It would be like choosing the Deepkin based purely on seeing the Namarti models. I love the Namarti, but I don't look the eels/turtle etc. I think showing off quite traditional elves and hiding the stranger new concepts was misleading of GW. 

As someone who bought into the hype and spent £50 on a limited edition battletome that is clearly going to have less than a third of the total warscrolls in it within 12 months, I also feel like I've bought something worthless. It's obvious from reading that battletome that GW knew well in advance how the faction was going to shape up and how they were going to release it in stages. I would have liked a lot more hints about what those later releases would look like, and how the initial materials would be supported as the faction expanded. At least then I could have made more of an informed choice.

Not to go off on a tangent, but it's like the new Soulblight warband they showed at the weekend.... Those 4 vampires look amazing. But what if I commit to collecting them as a full faction and start grabbing all the initial kits of plastic Blood Knights etc, and then find that GW have decided that blood-starved vampires actually mutate into giant koala bears and the named general rides in on an enormous winged cabbage? If they are going to go violently off-message with the traditional Warhammer faction themes, then we can't trust their little "nods" to the World-That-Was as a sign that they will treat it properly. 

As I say, I have learned my lesson. I'm switching to an established faction where I can see the full range and know exactly what I'm getting into before I pick up any models. 

[yukishiro1]

Orcs already got the winged cabbage, so you're probably safe there. It could, however, be a carrot with legs. 

[Eldarain]

5 minutes ago, yukishiro1 said:

Orcs already got the winged cabbage, so you're probably safe there. It could, however, be a carrot with legs. 

Blood Orange?...

I'll get my coat.

[Saturmorn Carvilli]

As a Lumineth player, I don't feel cheated save maybe Stone Guard being too expensive per box of 5.

I wanted Lumineth for what was in the Battletome.  Not for what was previewed.  Even knowing what is coming, I still want another 10 Stone Guard, 20 Wardens and 10 Dawn Riders.  Everything previewed will be more of getting one of each for to display the whole faction rather than use on the tabletop anyways.  They might provide interesting differing ways to play, but my Lumineth army was always intended to be primarily Alarith.

Even if it wasn't, I had the battletome for a good long while from the box set.  I didn't think it would be so fast for the next wave of models, but I knew they were coming.  If the other temples were half as interesting to me as the Mountain, I probably would have just started with a smaller army since it isn't like I am getting in a game for even another half-a-year from now.  Plus, I have a perfectly fine Slaves to Darkness army to play and way too many models still wanting painting.

As for Broken Realms: Teclis, I play  three (well, four now) factions in 40k.  I didn't pick up a single Psychic Awakening book for any of them.  Not even either of the Vigilus books which had quite a bit for my Black Legion and Genestealer Cult armies.  I didn't bother getting the Codex: Chaos Space Marine II.  I haven't even bothered picking up a Space Marine Chapter supplement for my Primaris space marine army.  What I'm trying to say is, I really don't think I will pick up Broken Realms: Teclis.  If I do, it won't be for the rules.

I don't pick up models or rules seeking more optimization or power.  I pick the models I do because I like the general idea of how they work or like how they look.  I am that guy whose army rarely has more than 1 unit of something that isn't a Troop/Battleline slot.  It is only after my collection of a faction matures that I will sometimes go back get more models of a unit I like.  It just how I collect and play the game.

[MitGas]

1 hour ago, yukishiro1 said:

Orcs already got the winged cabbage, so you're probably safe there. It could, however, be a carrot with legs. 

Laugh all you want but the new Sylvaneth Champion Carotto is a truly fearsome foe. Due to being awesome he has 40 attacks, hits and wounds on 2+ and has -6 rend for good measure.  There are gods... and then there is Carotto!

[Ravenborn]

No, but only because I’ve come to expect this of GW after 30 years. My outrage meter ran out of batteries a looooong time ago. 

[Sleboda]

12 hours ago, Doko said:

I feel that i gonna be citized for this.

But i never buy rules from gw and i just download and print them. So i wont feel cheated with the infinite print errors,faq,and things as this.

Im sorry but i feel that the gw miniatures are overprizeds(a box of 10 minis for 45€ when other companys charge as 20) so i think im paying for the rules when i buy the miniatures boxes allready.

Yep. You're right. You're going to be criticized, and rightly so.

 

Let me boil down your utterly selfish view:

 

I want a product. I actually find value in it and wish to own it. But I'm not going to pay the legal owners of that product in order to obtain it. Instead, because I have no problem using greed, selfishness, and arrogance ("i think im paying for the rules when i buy the miniatures") to justify it, I'll just support lawlessness and take what I want for free.

In other words, "I think I'm paying for the gasoline, oil changes, and highway tolls when I buy a car, and even though that's not true under the law or in this troublesome thing we can reality, I'm going to act as if what I believe to be true entitles me to ignore reality and just take the things I want without paying."

That about right?

Edited January 26, 2021 by Sleboda

[Doko]

I wont try talk it back, its wrong and you are rigth.

But for my point of view,i have been building plastic kit for 20 years(since i was 10 years old).

All these kits are so much cheaper than gw(bandai gundams,tamiya cars etc), so if i only buy gw kits to build them they are overpriced and i only pay that extra because i can play with them.

I wont say that my logic is good,piraty is bad for the bussiness and if everyone does it there wont be company.

But im unemployed and my money for hobby is limited,if i have to choose betwen get a kit or a book of rules(that gonna have erratas and can have a lifespan of only months) my choice is obvious.

Im sorry but the rules must be free,we are paying allready a premiun for the minis.

The lore, pics etc of the tomes are to me only a extra for these people that want buy extra material for their army or collectors etc

To summarice it:

-Gw models are overpriced and seems this gonna be worse seeing lumineths

-rules must be free as we are paying allready too much with each kit

-piraty is wrong and you are rigth

[Sleboda]

9 hours ago, Klamm said:

Because there is a group who ARE being cheated (or to use the economic term, exploited), the employees. 

GW is one of the few retail stores to have BENEFITED from the pandemic. They've gone from a revenue of £118 million in 2016 to 269 million in 2020, more than doubling their profits in 4 years. Is this value their employees have added compensated? Well obviously no.

Not obvious, and actually untrue. 

 

GW employees are offered, annually, a share purchasing scheme. It's optional, but anyone who has opted in is making bank now!

Additionally, there are bonuses (or used to be when I worked there) tied to performance. I imagine those bonuses are pretty sweet right about now.

 

I'm no GW apologist, not by a long shot, but I do believe in treating them fairly, good or bad. Saying that their employees are "obviously" not being "compensated" for the increased profits is just plainly false. 

 

 

 

Edited January 26, 2021 by Sleboda

[stratigo]

21 minutes ago, Doko said:

I wont try talk it back, its wrong and you are rigth.

But for my point of view,i have been building plastic kit for 20 years(since i was 10 years old).

All these kits are so much cheaper than gw(bandai gundams,tamiya cars etc), so if i only buy gw kits to build them they are overpriced and i only pay that extra because i can play with them.

I wont say that my logic is good,piraty is bad for the bussiness and if everyone does it there wont be company.

But im unemployed and my money for hobby is limited,if i have to choose betwen get a kit or a book of rules(that gonna have erratas and can have a lifespan of only months) my choice is obvious.

Im sorry but the rules must be free,we are paying allready a premiun for the minis.

The lore, pics etc of the tomes are to me only a extra for these people that want buy extra material for their army or collectors etc

To summarice it:

-Gw models are overpriced and seems this gonna be worse seeing lumineths

-rules must be free as we are paying allready too much with each kit

-piraty is wrong and you are rigth

GW doesn't make its cheddar off the rulebooks. Piracy barely registers to them. They want you to buy models. 

[PJetski]

Piracy is wrong.

Selling poorly edited books that require erratas is wrong.

Selling products knowing that they will be invalidated within a year is wrong.

The solution is to stop using the products and demand better. As long as people keep buying these books then they have no incentive to improve their products. Vote with your wallet. 

[Kramer]

1 hour ago, stratigo said:

GW doesn't make its cheddar off the rulebooks. Piracy barely registers to them. They want you to buy models. 

It earns them enough to stop, or at least delay, digital releases. 
the Warcry tomes are stil not available digitally. 

they are trying to find a hybrid form as seen with the 40k code thing.

[Sleboda]

1 hour ago, stratigo said:

GW doesn't make its cheddar off the rulebooks. Piracy barely registers to them. They want you to buy models. 

I gotta give @Doko  serious credit. I strongly commented negatively on his (her?) view, and it would have been natural for him to get defensive, but he didn't. He even admitted it's wrong. While I still think it's not right to use personal *opinion* and personal circumstances to justify piracy, at least he gets that it's wrong.  Good on you, Doko.

That said, the price of piracy to the company being stolen from is of no importance whatsoever. When a guy in a garage makes a product or a large manufacturer makes a product, they are protected equally from others simply stealing their work. They created it. They own it. They and they alone set the terms for transferring ownership. No opinion or circumstance changes that. We can, and must (imo), stand up for all equally. Piracy is bad. It's illegal. It's selfish.

 

I'll move on and get back to my game of Blood Bowl. I'm happy to debate further in DMs.

 

 

Edited January 26, 2021 by Sleboda

[Kramer]

3 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Piracy is wrong.

Selling poorly edited books that require erratas is wrong.

Selling products knowing that they will be invalidated within a year is wrong.

The solution is to stop using the products and demand better. As long as people keep buying these books then they have no incentive to improve their products. Vote with your wallet. 

Correct,

Not true,

Not true,

we might feel that way. But that’s very subjective and not actually wrong. 
but yeah, vote with the wallet. 
 

and just to throw a bit of petrol on the fire. This comes on the back off them raising prices on not only new releases, but also older kits. 

Edited January 26, 2021 by Kramer

[zilberfrid]

2 hours ago, Sleboda said:

Yep. You're right. You're going to be criticized, and rightly so.

 

Let me boil down your utterly selfish view:

 

I want a product. I actually find value in it and wish to own it. But I'm not going to pay the legal owners of that product in order to obtain it. Instead, because I have no problem using greed, selfishness, and arrogance ("i think im paying for the rules when i buy the miniatures") to justify it, I'll just support lawlessness and take what I want for free.

In other words, "I think I'm paying for the gasoline, oil changes, and highway tolls when I buy a car, and even though that's not true under the law or in this troublesome thing we can reality, I'm going to act as if what I believe to be true entitles me to ignore reality and just take the things I want without paying."

That about right?

I myself did not like the rules or its pricing and despise the powercreep.

I do like the models, but other than basic infantry and a few specific sets think it's wildly overpriced and scaled wrong.

When stating in the Necromunda Reddit that the core rulebook was useless on its own I was chewed out that this was normal (it does state that on the website, but I purchased at brick&mortar). I also received quite a few messages where to pirate the rules.

40k people apparently love their abuse, and you currently need a €45 core book, a €40 gangs of the underhive and a €37 gang specific book to play a game with a gang costing €34 in models.

I did take a look at the pirated stuff to see if I deemed it worth it (but never intended to use it), but it was the same (low) balance quality, low page count of actual rules and the art was mostly reused.

I thus moved to another ruleset (Frostgrave/Rangers/Stargrave(soon)) with a very active writer. Oathmark for larger games when we get there.

Northstar primarily for models, though sometimes Blood Bowl boxes charm me as a project and I got some basic sci fi people.